in tank or out for EFI conversion
#1176672
02/11/12 09:06 PM
02/11/12 09:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257 albemarle, NC
dusterbd13
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
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ok, so i had origonally not planned on going EFI with my 70 duster build. things and tastes change, and now i AM going EFI. im debating between in tank or out of tank pump placement. i dont want to buy another new tank, and cannot weld good enough to put a sump in my tank. it is not baffeled, either, so theoretically it would have to be sumped. that was until i found these: http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.htmlapparently the rock crawler guys are using one of these in all 4 corners of their fuel tanks, plumbed in series with hardline and very small sections of fuel submersable line (17 a foot at NAPA according to one thread.) that takes care of the sumping issue roght there. ill be running 60PSI of rail pressure, using a C5 corvette fuel pressure regulator/filter assembly with the return line built in, and a single feed up tpo my rails. ill be supporting 400 at the rear wheels at the moment, but am planning 6PSI of boost from a centrifugal supercharger later on down the road. so now my debate is about wether to put the pump in the tank like a stock EFI application, or run a rail mounted external pump. currently, i have a holley blue pump mounted acternally, and truly, truly hate it. with a passion. its really loud. will an aftermarket EFI pressure poump be the sanme? will it starve being siphon fed at my power levels? will it overheat and die quickly due to the pressure and supply demand? this is a car that gets a LOT of street miles, and quite a few track miles (autocross and open). if an intank would be preffereable, how would i go about getting it in there without cutting or welding the tank? how would i hook up the pickups to it? lots of questions, a half baked plan, and searching for experience and advice. please help. michael
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: dusterbd13]
#1176673
02/12/12 03:03 AM
02/12/12 03:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071
Irving, TX
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K.I.S.S. This is all you need: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/VOR-8F002-265/A similar inline pump handled the fuel demands of my EFI twin turbo 440. It was mounted up high in the rear axle arch and never had any issues. If it'll run like that, it'll do anything you need.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: feets]
#1176674
02/12/12 03:14 AM
02/12/12 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489 NE
bigtail
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
NE
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But, is it LOUD? I have a situation that is pretty close. Holley pump is LOUD! lol. So what's the deal with this pump?
This page is made up completely of recycled electrons.
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1176676
02/12/12 10:27 AM
02/12/12 10:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664 IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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With EFI, I've run stock pickup/rail mounted pump and in tank pump. Both work but some big differences.
With a carb, the fuel bowl holds enough fuel to keep the engine going during a momentary disruption of fuel supply, not so with EFI. If the pickup is uncovered briefly, the EFI system looses pressure and the engine runs lean or stumbles so keeping a steady fuel supply is critical.
With a stock style pickup/non-baffled tank, the general guideline is never go less than 1/4 tank and never less than 1/2 tank for aggressive driving. I don't know how much the special pickup you pictured helps.
The other consideration is the fuel pump itself. High pressure EFI pumps do not like intake restriction. They will cavitate, make a lot of noise and fail. Pumps in the size range of the Walbro can work OK with a 3/8" or 1/2" pickup and careful plumbing... high capacity pumps like the A1000 cannot handle the restriction. The high capacity pumps need a sump and -10 intake line to be reliable. I've got a couple of hurt A1000 pumps to prove it.
An tank pump or sumped tank is a lot better than the frame rail mounted pump/stock pickup. On my hotrod, I made the switch to an in-tank pump (Bosch pump good for around 700 HP) and am happy. Its just a little expensive.
There is another good option... a sump tank. The basic idea is to set up a proven low pressure pump (Holley Blue, Airtex Rotary ect.) to feed a frame mounted sump of about 1 quart capacity and feed the high pressure rail mounted pump from the sump. The low pressure pump continuously fills the sump with excess fuel routed back to tank return using a common return line with the engine regulator return. I am thinking of doing this to put EFI on a brand F pickup. There don't seem to be commercially available sump tanks (except top fuel $$)so making the sump itself is a hardware store/home improvement store project.
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: finadk]
#1176679
02/12/12 09:35 PM
02/12/12 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,082 Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,082
Berlin, N.J.
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this is best set up i'vs seen yet. i assisted djvcuda installing it in his cuda when he went to the fast ez efi on his tunnel ram. they did a really nice job with in tank pump. it takes a off the shelf GM pump which makes things easy if you need to replace it.. you can order a new tank from them with that piece already welded in it or you can just buy that piece and weld it in yourself.. http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautoparts.com/ndex.htm[img][/img] [img][/img]
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: abodyjoe]
#1176680
02/12/12 09:42 PM
02/12/12 09:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669 Michigan, USA
ramman5600
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
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Quote:
this is best set up i'vs seen yet. i assisted djvcuda installing it in his cuda when he went to the fast ez efi on his tunnel ram. they did a really nice job with in tank pump. it takes a off the shelf GM pump which makes things easy if you need to replace it..
you can order a new tank from them with that piece already welded in it or you can just buy that piece and weld it in yourself..
http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautoparts.com/ndex.htm
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
What kind of money was that set-up?
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: ahy]
#1176683
02/13/12 10:27 AM
02/13/12 10:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688 Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Quote:
With EFI, I've run stock pickup/rail mounted pump and in tank pump. Both work but some big differences.
With a carb, the fuel bowl holds enough fuel to keep the engine going during a momentary disruption of fuel supply, not so with EFI. If the pickup is uncovered briefly, the EFI system looses pressure and the engine runs lean or stumbles so keeping a steady fuel supply is critical.
With a stock style pickup/non-baffled tank, the general guideline is never go less than 1/4 tank and never less than 1/2 tank for aggressive driving. I don't know how much the special pickup you pictured helps.
The other consideration is the fuel pump itself. High pressure EFI pumps do not like intake restriction. They will cavitate, make a lot of noise and fail. Pumps in the size range of the Walbro can work OK with a 3/8" or 1/2" pickup and careful plumbing... high capacity pumps like the A1000 cannot handle the restriction. The high capacity pumps need a sump and -10 intake line to be reliable. I've got a couple of hurt A1000 pumps to prove it.
An tank pump or sumped tank is a lot better than the frame rail mounted pump/stock pickup. On my hotrod, I made the switch to an in-tank pump (Bosch pump good for around 700 HP) and am happy. Its just a little expensive.
There is another good option... a sump tank. The basic idea is to set up a proven low pressure pump (Holley Blue, Airtex Rotary ect.) to feed a frame mounted sump of about 1 quart capacity and feed the high pressure rail mounted pump from the sump. The low pressure pump continuously fills the sump with excess fuel routed back to tank return using a common return line with the engine regulator return. I am thinking of doing this to put EFI on a brand F pickup. There don't seem to be commercially available sump tanks (except top fuel $$)so making the sump itself is a hardware store/home improvement store project.
Yes, the loss of pressure when running the tank under 1/3 full or so can cause problems. I have 2 SMPI cars with frame-mounted pumps (one Walbro [Viper], one Bosch [Turbo Carerra]), and they are both fine as long as you don't run 'em low. The Bosch was very noisy until I added a small accumulator teed in nearby -- that totally quieted it down.
Not all in-tank pumps are created equal. Chrysler OEM pumps have a sump, approx 1.5 qts, as an integral part of the design, so the primary pickup is always sumbmerged -- kinda like a wet sump oiling system / scavenge/pressure. I have seen many other brands that don't have that feature.
That multi-corner pickup described above looks very interesting. Does the tank need to be sliced apart for that to be installed? Not the end of the world, but then you'd lose the OEM-style terneplating / rust resistance.
Rick
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: finadk]
#1176684
02/13/12 09:43 PM
02/13/12 09:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257 albemarle, NC
dusterbd13
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
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Quote:
You might want to look at the in tank fuel pump with reservoir conversion from Tanks Inc. www.tanksinc.com It uses a Walbro pump and its actually not that hard to install. Simple as cutting a hole with a hole saw, in my case flattening out a ridge on the top of the tank, and drilling a few holes. Took me about 5 hours in total. Some people may move faster or slower than me.
so, how far above the top of the plate do the fittings come? im assuming that one hole is feed, one retrun, and one vent. correct?
i really like this solution. it looks like the best route fir me. im assumikng this is the tank in your 58. have you pushed it hard with low fuel? any dyarvation issues? any seepage or fumes with a full tank?
i know, lots of questions, but this looks perfect. price is more than id like to spend, but worth it if it fills the bill. thay would actually be the most expensive part of ny efi build.
michael
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1176685
02/13/12 09:48 PM
02/13/12 09:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257 albemarle, NC
dusterbd13
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
With EFI, I've run stock pickup/rail mounted pump and in tank pump. Both work but some big differences.
With a carb, the fuel bowl holds enough fuel to keep the engine going during a momentary disruption of fuel supply, not so with EFI. If the pickup is uncovered briefly, the EFI system looses pressure and the engine runs lean or stumbles so keeping a steady fuel supply is critical.
With a stock style pickup/non-baffled tank, the general guideline is never go less than 1/4 tank and never less than 1/2 tank for aggressive driving. I don't know how much the special pickup you pictured helps.
The other consideration is the fuel pump itself. High pressure EFI pumps do not like intake restriction. They will cavitate, make a lot of noise and fail. Pumps in the size range of the Walbro can work OK with a 3/8" or 1/2" pickup and careful plumbing... high capacity pumps like the A1000 cannot handle the restriction. The high capacity pumps need a sump and -10 intake line to be reliable. I've got a couple of hurt A1000 pumps to prove it.
An tank pump or sumped tank is a lot better than the frame rail mounted pump/stock pickup. On my hotrod, I made the switch to an in-tank pump (Bosch pump good for around 700 HP) and am happy. Its just a little expensive.
There is another good option... a sump tank. The basic idea is to set up a proven low pressure pump (Holley Blue, Airtex Rotary ect.) to feed a frame mounted sump of about 1 quart capacity and feed the high pressure rail mounted pump from the sump. The low pressure pump continuously fills the sump with excess fuel routed back to tank return using a common return line with the engine regulator return. I am thinking of doing this to put EFI on a brand F pickup. There don't seem to be commercially available sump tanks (except top fuel $$)so making the sump itself is a hardware store/home improvement store project.
Yes, the loss of pressure when running the tank under 1/3 full or so can cause problems. I have 2 SMPI cars with frame-mounted pumps (one Walbro [Viper], one Bosch [Turbo Carerra]), and they are both fine as long as you don't run 'em low. The Bosch was very noisy until I added a small accumulator teed in nearby -- that totally quieted it down.
Not all in-tank pumps are created equal. Chrysler OEM pumps have a sump, approx 1.5 qts, as an integral part of the design, so the primary pickup is always sumbmerged -- kinda like a wet sump oiling system / scavenge/pressure. I have seen many other brands that don't have that feature.
That multi-corner pickup described above looks very interesting. Does the tank need to be sliced apart for that to be installed? Not the end of the world, but then you'd lose the OEM-style terneplating / rust resistance.
Rick
from everything ive read on the rock crawler forums, it looks like guys are hardlining them in from the availible snding unit opening, and forcing them into the corners of the tank with the hard lines. would definately be an interesting geometry problem with an a-body tank, but with patoience not insurmountable. they apparentle dont move much with this method.
michael
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Re: in tank or out for EFI conversion
[Re: dusterbd13]
#1176687
02/14/12 02:19 PM
02/14/12 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 299 East Brunswick, NJ
finadk
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 299
East Brunswick, NJ
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Michael, You are correct the fittings are fuel out, return and vent. The fittings are a 90 degree adapter and stick up about 3/4 to 1 inch above the tank. That tank is for my 56 and I have not yet got it in the car. Im still working on the fuel lines and fittings and vent plumbing. I may have to clearance the trunk floor a bit, ir drop the tank down a little. Its stil la work in progress. I could not recess the top of the tank because it is so shallow to begin with.
If you look online there is a good how-to showing an install on a Chevelle. I dont have the link available right now.
Last edited by finadk; 02/14/12 02:19 PM.
Scott
1956 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer (408 Stroker, 4 Wheel Disc Brakes, Rack & Pinion, 6 speed)
2002 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab
1976 Corvette
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