Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1152005
01/07/12 05:37 AM
01/07/12 05:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817 Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Monroes don't seem to have much more than factory damping in them. I have a brand new set of them and my car will still bound and dive close to the bumpstops over big heaves on the freeway.
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: bobby66]
#1152008
01/07/12 01:55 PM
01/07/12 01:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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I put KYB Gas-a-justs (they are different from the GR-2's or whatever they are called) on: 77 Volare 70 Barracuda 70 'Cuda I like them for some reasons: Cheap Firm They don't wear out fast (that could be a disadvantage ) They stiffen up a soft suspension a bit They handle great on smooth roads I dislike them for some reasons: Jarring ride on bumpy roads Poor weight transfer (they hinder the rear suspension from doing its job under hard acceleration) They're ok. Better would be Monroes on a stiffend suspension IMHO.
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1152012
01/07/12 02:35 PM
01/07/12 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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I think the reason why some of us look down on KYB is because it is being used as a band aid to mask weak spring rates, which many will translate as improved performance. Remember the springs provide the resistance to motion, shocks only determine how fast that resistance occurs. If you significantly slow down how fast the suspension allows the body to roll, but not how far it will roll, you're only delaying the inevitible bottoming that will occur. Slow it down enough and you will transition the car to another direction before the bottoming occurs.
Back in the 80s, pressurized gas shocks were just starting to show up in the retail market place for auto applications. Monroe and Gabriel marketed their nitrogen charged shocks as replacement shocks while KYB sold theirs as a performance shock.
M & G used a lower pressure with a progressive rate which was very forgiving and smooth over small road irregularities but provided increasing resistance as the travel of the shock increased in speed for larger bumps and cornering.
By contract KYB used a high pressure charge with what feels like digressive valving which made the weak in the knees stock suspension feel like they handled better because they radically slowed down suspension reaction over large bumps and turns. For very small bumps the digressive valving kept the motion range so low it wasn't significantly noticeable, but the resistance would jump up so quickly that medium bumps or washboard would generate resistance comparable to a large load bump or hard turn.
KYB Gas-A -Just have not signifcantly changed since this time period. Their GR2 may not be too bad, but I don't think they make those for classic mopars, and honestly, I haven't researched them at all to know if they really are better.
My experience with KYB was a long time ago in the four wheel drive arena where they were brutally rough to deal with, esecially in short wheel base applications like CJs and early Broncos. When I traded my KYBs for Ranchos, the difference was like night and day. In the 25 years since then, shocks have advanced even further which means the good old KYB Gas Adjust has turned in to a bottom dweller in actual performance results, although they still market it as a performance shock.
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: BDW]
#1152013
01/07/12 02:37 PM
01/07/12 02:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
What Monroes are you guys talking about as an alternative?
"Monroe-Matics" are what I've heard them called
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1152014
01/07/12 05:03 PM
01/07/12 05:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439 So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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The best shock absorbers are made by Bilstein and Koni.. Not cheap but they work great and last 100K miles.. Just my $0.02..
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1152016
01/07/12 05:20 PM
01/07/12 05:20 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,723 Florida
BDW
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,723
Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
What Monroes are you guys talking about as an alternative?
"Monroe-Matics" are what I've heard them called
Thx, funny that's what I just put on my car. Only $10 each from Rockauto.
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1152017
01/07/12 05:26 PM
01/07/12 05:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347 Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
I think the reason why some of us look down on KYB is because it is being used as a band aid to mask weak spring rates, which many will translate as improved performance. Remember the springs provide the resistance to motion, shocks only determine how fast that resistance occurs. If you significantly slow down how fast the suspension allows the body to roll, but not how far it will roll, you're only delaying the inevitible bottoming that will occur. Slow it down enough and you will transition the car to another direction before the bottoming occurs.
Back in the 80s, pressurized gas shocks were just starting to show up in the retail market place for auto applications. Monroe and Gabriel marketed their nitrogen charged shocks as replacement shocks while KYB sold theirs as a performance shock.
M & G used a lower pressure with a progressive rate which was very forgiving and smooth over small road irregularities but provided increasing resistance as the travel of the shock increased in speed for larger bumps and cornering.
By contract KYB used a high pressure charge with what feels like digressive valving which made the weak in the knees stock suspension feel like they handled better because they radically slowed down suspension reaction over large bumps and turns. For very small bumps the digressive valving kept the motion range so low it wasn't significantly noticeable, but the resistance would jump up so quickly that medium bumps or washboard would generate resistance comparable to a large load bump or hard turn.
KYB Gas-A -Just have not signifcantly changed since this time period. Their GR2 may not be too bad, but I don't think they make those for classic mopars, and honestly, I haven't researched them at all to know if they really are better.
My experience with KYB was a long time ago in the four wheel drive arena where they were brutally rough to deal with, esecially in short wheel base applications like CJs and early Broncos. When I traded my KYBs for Ranchos, the difference was like night and day. In the 25 years since then, shocks have advanced even further which means the good old KYB Gas Adjust has turned in to a bottom dweller in actual performance results, although they still market it as a performance shock.
I can't believe you took the time to type that all out but yeah you covered it pretty well...
And the Monroe-Matics aren't a performance shock at all but I've used them & recommend them over KYB's they dampen without being harsh..
Currently I have Bilsteins on three of my four running vehicles... The forth vehicle has less than 10k miles since new.. when I replace the shocks guess what I'll be putting on it...
"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1152018
01/07/12 09:05 PM
01/07/12 09:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757 Toronto, Ont, Canada
boydsdodge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757
Toronto, Ont, Canada
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I did the Bilstien swap this summer, took it for a test drive thru my favorite hispeed corners and I held the line so much easier then the lane changing KYBs. A full set of KYBs will run 200.00 a full set of Bilsteins from FirmFeel will run 400.00 It was a deal.
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1152019
01/07/12 09:13 PM
01/07/12 09:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
In 1989 I put KYB shocks in my lowered 76 Camaro. I already had Trans Am sway bars and 225-50-15 tires on it. The KYBs firmed up the ride even with the stock springs and the car handled better than any other car that I had driven, even an 86 IROC Z28. Here I am, 22 years later with the '70 Charger, a car that is far superior to the Camaro in every way EXCEPT the handling. When I rebuilt the suspension I went with what I was familiar with... KYB shocks. I must have been on an island or something because the more that I look, the more I read that nobody with a hot handling Mopar LIKES these shocks. Mr Angry suggests the Edelbrock IAS shocks and considering his reputation, I consider this good advice. I'm curious to read opinions and experiences from members that switched from KYBs to the more expensive shocks. What sort of improvements can I expect to see? Is it possible to see a better ride while reducing the tendency to skip across bumpy patches of crappy pavement? I'm not against spending money if there are gains to be had.
Mine work good.
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Re: Why so much hatred for the KYBs?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1152020
01/07/12 10:53 PM
01/07/12 10:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
I can't believe you took the time to type that all out but yeah you covered it pretty well...
Thanks. Sometimes the need to expand a bit more than "They Suck" is necessary to help others understand why there are better choices out there and why their perception of improvement is somewhat of a misnomer.
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