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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1151267
01/06/12 04:27 PM
01/06/12 04:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 805
San Francisco Bay Area
MrAngry
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 805
San Francisco Bay Area
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Here you go:
Firm Feel or Magnum Force Tubular upper control arms
Ditch the KYB's and put in a set of Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks
Go to the 1 3/8 front sway bar from Hotchkis and a 7/8 rear bar
ABSOLUTELY install sub-frame connectors and if you can, get the XV motorsports chassis stiffening kit. It includes inner fender well braces and under hood shock tower brace.
You've already got the FF stage 3 steering box with Fast ratio idler and pitman arms - good move.
Minimum of .96 on the torsion bars. This will help you out A LOT.
The biggest thing I can see right off the bat are KYB's - ditch them, they're junk. If you really want to improve the ride and handling Ridetech makes a beautiful set of single adjustable. I just got them and am just waiting to do the install.
Remember, this an 18-foot, 4,000 lb car so if you're looking for Corvette handling it simply ain't gonna happen without going to a coil-over conversion and 3-link rear but that big $$$
Hope this helps.
Never trust a pretty girl... or a lonely midget.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: MrAngry]
#1151268
01/06/12 07:12 PM
01/06/12 07:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,054
USA
b54406barrel
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,054
USA
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See my avatar picture.  Sorry, couldn't resist!  Bunny shocks, rule!
Last edited by b54406barrel; 01/06/12 07:13 PM.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: ahy]
#1151270
01/06/12 09:05 PM
01/06/12 09:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 805
San Francisco Bay Area
MrAngry
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 805
San Francisco Bay Area
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Trust me... KYB's AND Koni's are junk for serious road work. If you plan on really driving the car go for the Edelbrocks, Bilstein's or Ridetech shocks.
A nice set of drop spindles doesn't hurt either.
Never trust a pretty girl... or a lonely midget.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: MrAngry]
#1151271
01/06/12 11:30 PM
01/06/12 11:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Trust me... KYB's AND Koni's are junk for serious road work. If you plan on really driving the car go for the Edelbrocks, Bilstein's or Ridetech shocks.
A nice set of drop spindles doesn't hurt either.
I keep hearing negative comments about the KYB shocks! I never knew that they were the scourge of the hobby! The car rides firm, but not harsh. From all the stuff that I have read, this reminds me of when I bought my new bed. I didn't realize what a worn out piece of crap that the old bed was! I'll have to try the Edelbrocks and swap these KYBs to one of the cars I plan to SELL. Does anyone know the pricing on the Edelbrocks?
Regarding the Nitto 555 tires: Great in all areas, handling, steering response, braking.... But they are a little loose under throttle! 
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1151272
01/07/12 03:51 PM
01/07/12 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
I rebuilt the front suspension using poly bushings in the UCAs and strut rods, but used rubber bushings in the LCAs.
There is a slop point in the rubber. Minor, but still there.
Quote:
I have 1" torsion bars and a 1 1/8" front sway bar with KYB shocks.
Aside from the shocks, thats decent.
Quote:
The alignment is set to 1/2 degree NEG camber, 3 degrees POS caster and zero toe. The rear has MP leaf springs, a 3/4" sway bar and KYB shocks. 18x9 front wheels with 275-40-18 Nitto 555 tires, 18x10 rears with 295-45-18 Nitto tires.
Again, decent except for shocks. However, I do see a flex point in there. With 275 front tires, you have massive amounts of rubber on the ground. This much rubber will generate a fair amount of traction, which means it will resist directional changes. You need to increase the leverage on that grip to generate directional change. That increased leverage puts additional loads in to the steering box and idler arm mounts. If you have not gussetted these areas to resist the deflection, they WILL flex and delay steering response.
Quote:
NO frame connectors yet... Thats one of the upcoming changes. I have a Firm Feel stage 3 steering box with Fast ratio idler and pitman arms.
No frame connectors allows the body becomes an active, yet inconsistent, member of the susension. Definetly need to correct this. A solid unibody is the foundation of the car. With the fast ratio arms, there is the additional leverage that is flexing the steering and idler mounts. Also, you never mention if you rebuilt the steering coupler. There are a couple of pieces in there that will wear and require rebuilding after some time.
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Sometimes the rear end wants to come around whether I'm on the throttle or not. I rarely if ever get any understeer. I have an aluminum headed 440 stroker which may weigh about the same as the iron headed 318 that was there originally. I'm sure that my roll stiffness is greater at the rear than the front and I could remedy this 2 ways: Either increase the front rate with larger torsion bars or a thicker sway bar.... OR reduce the rear with softer springs or a smaller sway bar.
You have this understood and know what you need to do. Firm Feel does offer 1.25 front sway bars, or more easily, you could take a leaf out of the rear spring pack.
Quote:
My question is as stated... What suspension mods or upgrades have you made with your B body? I'm curious as to what others are using and how well it works... Thanks!
My '67 had subframe connectors and a gusseted k-frame, poly bushings everywhere, .96 t-bars, 1.125 front s-bar, MP leaf springs, Mopar Oval Track shocks, Firm feel steering with fast ratio arms, 15x8 wheels with Goodyear Gatorbacks. It was very street friendly and handled very well It would run head to head with my friend's 944 on mountain drives.
My '74 is a bit more aggressive. It has subframe connectors, but they are Xed, Also torque boxes and k frame gussets, Poly bushings through out, 1.22 t-bars with 1.125 fron s-bar, 1.0 rear s-bar, MP oval track zero arch springs, Firm Feel steering with quick ratio arms, single adjustable Varishocks. I'm playing with a tubular upper arm design but haven't decided on it yet. I need to figure out how much camber gain I want and fab up the mounting system for the install. I may just use the stock arms with offset bushings until I get that figure out. For now I'm also sticking with 15" rubber, but it will move up to 17" eventually. Since this one isn't on the street yet, can't comment on it its manners or erformance.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1151274
01/08/12 03:09 PM
01/08/12 03:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
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That is a correct statement and by using super stock springs, you are increasing the tendancey for this rear steer action. SS springs have more arch than a stock spring, so while you have corrected ride height, you haven't corrected the spring camber and you are introducing roll steer. The more body roll you have, the more exaggerated this will become. This is the reason why stock and handling leaf springs tend to be as flat as possible. The flatter they are, the less the axle moves during cycling.
I might be worth finding an A body main leaf and swapping over 4-5 leafs from the SS pack to see if you can flatten out the pack and get rid of the lowering block and raise you front eye mounting position.
Perhaps before doing that though, you should install the frame connectors and see what impact that has in the condition. A factor that could be contributing to the oversteer condition is chassis flex. Without subframe connectors, the body is moving. This is creating an inconsistancy is suspension reaction. The gians to be had with the connectors overall is why I would tackle their installation first.
There can actually be a few other minor contributors that you may want to keep in mind as you dial this in. I still think body flex is issue #1. Spring camber would be #2, but also factoring in to this could be front shocks that are too soft, too much rear brake bias, a binding in the rear suspension motion, too much rear shackle angle, or too much anti-squat in the spring pack/front hanger relationship.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1151275
01/09/12 02:12 PM
01/09/12 02:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,048
Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,048
Salem
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Frankenduster: Your picture is worth a thousand words, thanks for including it. I think I see something that is contributing to the over-steer: Your front track-width is maxed out to the fender lips (good thing) but the backs look tucked in a bit too much. Could you please confirm and take a track width measure of the front and back (outside to outside of tires) and post it? Could be a minor adjustment here and then the rest of what you have planned will get you where you want to be. 
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: ahy]
#1151280
01/10/12 01:30 PM
01/10/12 01:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
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Quote:
One more thing to add to the list... re-enforced LCA's. This involves welding a stiffening plate to the bottom of the LCA to help resist twisting with a hefty sway bar. Firm Feel and Mancini sell the plates for DIY welding or Firm Feel can weld them up for you.
It would save everybody a lot of hassle and be fair to those on the sidelines if those that profess this time honored mod, if they would just briefly mention there are those that feel this mod has little value unless the car is running 200mph on the high banks of daytona. I know it makes everybody feel warm and fuzzy when they beef up a part that never fails ( unless contact is made with a concrete wall, or other immovable object, and then you just bend something else harder to replace) and if 1/8" plate is good, why not 1/4" plate or just pull out all the stops and use 1/2" 
Does it hurt, no,
Is is it a misleading "improvement", IMO yes
Does it maybe prevent a 200lb/in? sway bar from "slightly" and the emphasis is on slightly, distort/twist the LCA control arm under full roll, and if so this causes what phantom problem?
Did I do the mod to one of my early cars? Yes, and likely never again
Can anyone honestly say here they have made this single change alone and noticed any improvement? I think not.
Same applies to 11/16" TR
"When oneβs appeal is emotional, it does not matter if there is no substance."
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Grizzly]
#1151281
01/10/12 08:02 PM
01/10/12 08:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
4. Thicker rear sway bar. It is supposed to help by keeping the high-side rear tire down which means more traction on the back. That equals less over-steer.
I'm gonna disagree with this one as a potential fix. He already has too much rear rate. Adding more will make it worse. Handling results sometimes are inverse from what you would logically think they need-ie the end of the car with the most wheel rate is the end that will slide first. The rear is sliding first, therefore it has too much rate. To pull it back in, you need to either step down the rear rate or step up the front rate. Understeer would be the opposite.
I still think the first step is sub-frame connectors. There is so much to be gained from them, they should be the first step of any suspension upgrade, IMO.
Quote:
Can anyone honestly say here they have made this single change alone and noticed any improvement? I think not.
Same applies to 11/16" TR
True, but the factory did add a stiffening strap to the lower control arm on AAR/TA offerings, so there is some merit to it. The plate may be overkill, but its simple enough.
I'm with you on the 11/16: TR, however.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Grizzly]
#1151282
01/10/12 08:06 PM
01/10/12 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
Quote:
The rear tires rub slightly on the wheel tubs as it is. I had the axle narrowed to scoot the tires in 3/4" each side. It was cheaper than ordering new rims.
Nice.  But you see where I'm going with this: if you had that extra 1.5" of width at the back, Your Charger would back off a bit in the over-steer department
I'm planning on modifying the wheel tubs to eliminate the rubbing issue. Its sorta wierd where it rubs. It didn't rub when the rear sat 2 inches higher. It makes contact at the outer wheelhouse! Its odd that Dodge designed the wheel tubs this way. They dont go straight up alongside the quarter panels like a 67-76 Dart sedan did. The Charger wheel tub outer section sits inboard of the quarter panel by a few inches, Wow. That's alot. which keeps me from having the rims sit out any wider. Like I mentioned, I intend to modify the tubs soon. Thanks for the idea though.
You bet, I got four more ideas starting from free to expensive:
1. Subtract 2psi from the backs and add 2psi to the fronts. Test drive. Subtract another 2 pounds back and add another 2 to the front. Test drive. Did it make a difference?
2. Scale your car at all four corners and then front axle and rear axle to figure out your weight bias. There are chassis Guys that know what the numbers should look like and can help you further.
3. You're not going to like this one, but, adjust the torsion bars to raise the front a 1/4 inch. Test drive. Raise again another 1/4 inch. Test drive. Any difference? Count the turns so you can put them back to where they were if it has no effect.
4. Thicker rear sway bar. It is supposed to help by keeping the high-side rear tire down which means more traction on the back. That equals less over-steer.
Come on guys, let's slow down here.
First off #4 is dead wrong. A bigger rear bar will cause oversteer or a loose condition if not properly balanced to the front.
#3 is bit off also. Raising the center of gravity is not necessarily a good idea. The correct thing to do here is add bigger torsion bars or bigger sway to correct an oversteer condition.
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Re: What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1151283
01/10/12 08:16 PM
01/10/12 08:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
My 70 Charger has a fully rebuilt suspension with a few upgrades, but over the winter I'm going to make a few changes. As it is now, it responds and handles decent but lacks the "locked on rails" feeling I had with a modified 76 Camaro that I used to own.
The Charger has solid floors and frame rails. I rebuilt the front suspension using poly bushings in the UCAs and strut rods, but used rubber bushings in the LCAs. I have 1" torsion bars and a 1 1/8" front sway bar with KYB shocks. The alignment is set to 1/2 degree NEG camber, 3 degrees POS caster and zero toe. The rear has MP leaf springs, a 3/4" sway bar and KYB shocks. 18x9 front wheels with 275-40-18 Nitto 555 tires, 18x10 rears with 295-45-18 Nitto tires. NO frame connectors yet... Thats one of the upcoming changes. I have a Firm Feel stage 3 steering box with Fast ratio idler and pitman arms. Sometimes the rear end wants to come around whether I'm on the throttle or not. I rarely if ever get any understeer. I have an aluminum headed 440 stroker which may weigh about the same as the iron headed 318 that was there originally. I'm sure that my roll stiffness is greater at the rear than the front and I could remedy this 2 ways: Either increase the front rate with larger torsion bars or a thicker sway bar.... OR reduce the rear with softer springs aor a smaller sway bar.
My question is as stated... What suspension mods or upgrades have you made with your B body? I'm curious as to what others are using and how well it works... Thanks!
To OP, here is what I would do in your situation and it is not much.
-1.12 front bars
-IAS Shocks
-FF Box and fast Ratio
-Subframe Connectors
-FF or Hotchkis Rear Springs
Bottom line is if this car never hits the track, even these parts are way overkill. Unless you have the right combination of brakes, tires, safety, you will never use any of this stuff to its full potential. But it does add a whole different driving experience.
We ran a semi- combination of these parts at the OPTIMA Challenge going 125MPH into the corners and there was still a lot left in the car.
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