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Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Troublemaker427] #1143634 12/30/11 11:10 PM 12/30/11 11:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,943 Melbourne.....Oz-land Moparmal OP master
Moparmal OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,943 Melbourne.....Oz-land	I have no problem with any of them as long as the tyre width is moderated and no slide a links etc are allowed. On the T Bolt thing - my problem with the dill on You Tube was that he was quoting AFX T Bolts as an argument to claim the SS Darts weren't the fastest qtr mile production cars. My issue is he was comparing an AFX "apple" with a SS "orange".

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Moparmal] #1143635 12/30/11 11:23 PM 12/30/11 11:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi. J JAKE68 pro stock
JAKE68 pro stock J Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi.	Actually the tbolts gave the 64/65 hemi cars fits thats why they came out with the 68 darts and cudas. By 68 the tire size was a 10 in. in ss. Last edited by JAKE68; 12/30/11 11:25 PM. JAKES AUTOMOTIVE

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: JAKE68] #1143636 12/30/11 11:44 PM 12/30/11 11:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	To me it dont matter if Hurst put the eng in like the 68 Hemi cars or Kar Kraft like the Boss 429 Stangs because as long as the car went back to the dealer and the dealers sold them to be tagged and insured then its a production car in my eyes. It was bought at the dealer no matter who put the eng in. But if you bought it at the dealer but could not tag and insure it as was the case with the 68 Hemi cars then I say no it was not a street leagal car and should not be legal in Pure Stock. Jody I like the idea of running cheater slicks on a class of factory race cars. That would be a very cool class. And you know the Thunderbolt of Gas Rhonda won SS at the 64 Winternationals running low 12's but a Max Wedge car won Top Stock running 11.60's I believe. I also believe the Ramchargers dipped in the 11.30's at the 64 Winternats with their 63 Max Wedge car as the 64 Hemi cars did not run at the 64 Winternats. Course I do understand that it was the first competition for the Thunderbolts. I do agree that the 68 SS cars came from the factory in not so good shape sometimes from what I heard. I even heard alot came thru with just street Hemi's but most all the racers yanked the Hemi and built their own Hemi to the SS rules as I believe thats what Mopar figured the racers would do. You could do alot more mods to the 68 SS cars then the 63 & 64 SS cars. Ron Last edited by 383man; 12/30/11 11:46 PM.

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1143637 12/30/11 11:48 PM 12/30/11 11:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 10,032 MI, usa dvw I Live Here
dvw I Live Here Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 10,032 MI, usa	Quote: Here's the other car mentioned here in Washington, Mr. Brundage's car. I believe this was my buddy Jim's car. Sure looks the same. I have a picture at work. I'll have to get it when I go back to work on Tuesday. Doug

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: JAKE68] #1143638 12/31/11 01:42 AM 12/31/11 01:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,943 Melbourne.....Oz-land Moparmal OP master
Moparmal OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,943 Melbourne.....Oz-land	Quote: Actually the tbolts gave the 64/65 hemi cars fits thats why they came out with the 68 darts and cudas. By 68 the tire size was a 10 in. in ss. Again - a T Blt in AFX spec is going to be way different to a SS car of 1968 - Anyone know what the T Bolts weighed vs the Darts?

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: 383man] #1143639 12/31/11 02:38 AM 12/31/11 02:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A. M mike s top fuel
mike s top fuel M Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.	70 64 2 door HT Hemi cars were built.35 Ply and 35 Dodges.110 64 sedan cars.203 65 sedan cars.Should they be let in Pure Stock? Probably not but neither should the L-88's and ZL-1's.It should be limited to street engines 427/425 etc. I would like to see the real numbers as some Chevy dealers were doing the conversions on 396/427 cars.We did them for Funston Chevrolet in Detroit.Almost all L-88's(BTW L-88 was a road race package for Corvettes).As far ZL-1 cars in Detroit I only saw 1 owned by some GM honcho's kid.I am sure there were more but they were not on the street. The actual problem is allowing a Corvette in.Huge advantage with stock type tires.NHRA didn't allow them in stock back in the day.They ran in sports car class with the Cobras (exc for 62 down).Maybe the Cobra should be in too? Cheater slicks? We had that was called Stock Eliminator back in the day. Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Spaceman Spiff] #1143640 12/31/11 09:28 AM 12/31/11 09:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,048 Atlanta Indiana D Dave Watt master
Dave Watt master D Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,048 Atlanta Indiana	The Dodge Daytonas and Plymouth Super Birds were sent to Creative Industries for installation of body pieces. They are allowed to race in Pure Stock.

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Dave Watt] #1143641 12/31/11 11:30 AM 12/31/11 11:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,698 jersey S Spaceman Spiff master
Spaceman Spiff master S Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,698 jersey	Quote: The Dodge Daytonas and Plymouth Super Birds were sent to Creative Industries for installation of body pieces. They are allowed to race in Pure Stock. For BODY pieces. They didn't install drivetrains. 526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: 383man] #1143642 12/31/11 11:32 AM 12/31/11 11:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,698 jersey S Spaceman Spiff master
Spaceman Spiff master S Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,698 jersey	Quote: To me it dont matter if Hurst put the eng in like the 68 Hemi cars or Kar Kraft like the Boss 429 Stangs because as long as the car went back to the dealer and the dealers sold them to be tagged and insured then its a production car in my eyes. It was bought at the dealer no matter who put the eng in. But if you bought it at the dealer but could not tag and insure it as was the case with the 68 Hemi cars then I say no it was not a street leagal car and should not be legal in Pure Stock. Jody I like the idea of running cheater slicks on a class of factory race cars. That would be a very cool class. And you know the Thunderbolt of Gas Rhonda won SS at the 64 Winternationals running low 12's but a Max Wedge car won Top Stock running 11.60's I believe. I also believe the Ramchargers dipped in the 11.30's at the 64 Winternats with their 63 Max Wedge car as the 64 Hemi cars did not run at the 64 Winternats. Course I do understand that it was the first competition for the Thunderbolts. I do agree that the 68 SS cars came from the factory in not so good shape sometimes from what I heard. I even heard alot came thru with just street Hemi's but most all the racers yanked the Hemi and built their own Hemi to the SS rules as I believe thats what Mopar figured the racers would do. You could do alot more mods to the 68 SS cars then the 63 & 64 SS cars. Ron You couldn't get a '68 SS car at a dealer. you had to pick them up from the factory. 526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Moparmal] #1143643 12/31/11 01:03 PM 12/31/11 01:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD. Troublemaker427 super stock
Troublemaker427 super stock Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD.	Quote: Quote: Actually the tbolts gave the 64/65 hemi cars fits thats why they came out with the 68 darts and cudas. By 68 the tire size was a 10 in. in ss. Again - a T Blt in AFX spec is going to be way different to a SS car of 1968 - Anyone know what the T Bolts weighed vs the Darts? A T-bolt weighed 3225 lbs. as delivered. Please explain what you mean that a T-bolt in AFX spec is "way different"? The only differance in 1964 was tire size, 7" SS vs. 10" AFX. Ford met the minimum production number required by NHRA to allow them to run SS. Many racers preffered to run them in AFX because they were a hand full on the 7" tires of the day. As Jake said by 1968 SS was on 10" tires. The Darts and Cudas should have also had the advantage of 4 years of additional development. Don't get me wrong, I like them all even though I have mostly Fords. If I could I would have a '64 Race Hemi Dodge in my garage!! I do have the fourth T-bolt built in the garage though.... Jody Aberts 1966 Fairlane 427 Troublemaker2 AA/NSS 1964 Galaxie 500XL 390-4spd. 1966 F-100 390-C6 1967 Plymouth VIP 383-TF 2003 Roadking

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Troublemaker427] #1143644 12/31/11 01:51 PM 12/31/11 01:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A. M mike s top fuel
mike s top fuel M Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.	Quote: Quote: Quote: Actually the tbolts gave the 64/65 hemi cars fits thats why they came out with the 68 darts and cudas. By 68 the tire size was a 10 in. in ss. Again - a T Blt in AFX spec is going to be way different to a SS car of 1968 - Anyone know what the T Bolts weighed vs the Darts? A T-bolt weighed 3225 lbs. as delivered. Please explain what you mean that a T-bolt in AFX spec is "way different"? The only differance in 1964 was tire size, 7" SS vs. 10" AFX. Ford met the minimum production number required by NHRA to allow them to run SS. Many racers preffered to run them in AFX because they were a hand full on the 7" tires of the day. As Jake said by 1968 SS was on 10" tires. The Darts and Cudas should have also had the advantage of 4 years of additional development. Don't get me wrong, I like them all even though I have mostly Fords. If I could I would have a '64 Race Hemi Dodge in my garage!! I do have the fourth T-bolt built in the garage though.... Respecfully Jody, they never made 100 T-bolts.Made up later maybe but they counted the same cars several times.If I recall things got funny after about 55-60 were built. Couple more things only the very best cars gave the Hemi cars trouble.Most had trouble with Max wedge cars.Check the e.t's Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Troublemaker427] #1143645 12/31/11 01:54 PM 12/31/11 01:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	From what I remember Jody (Troublemaker427) is right as the only difference in 63 I know between AFX and SS was the tire size. Thats why at first the Chevy 409 Z-11 cars had to run AFX or Limited Production they called it as NHRA said they did not build enough for SS so all they had to do was use the bigger slicks. Rules were alot different back then as I believe in 63 you could not change the cam in the SS cars as you had the run the cam they came with. You could not use the cheater cams with a ton of duration at the same lift. It seemed from week to week different cars would be faster back then but it was a cool time. Ron

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Troublemaker427] #1143646 12/31/11 02:03 PM 12/31/11 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 449 Lees Summit, MO S SmallHurst mopar
SmallHurst mopar S Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 449 Lees Summit, MO	I will refer you to the rules for the Pure Stock Drags: Pure Stock Musclecar Drag Race rules The second paragraph states the reasoning for the '64 and '65 Hemi cars not being allowed to play. It is not having a warranty that keeps them from playing. As for the Yenko that plays, the '67 and '68 Yenko's cannot play because the motor was not installed by GM. In '69, the cars came delivered to Yenko with the 427 already in place. In essence, the '69 Yenko was a COPO car that had stickers and wheels added at the dealership. The ZL-1's and the L-88's were both dragstrip missles, but both were sold with a warranty. If someone wanted to bring a Boss 429 'Stang along, those would be legal as well as they were delivered to the dealer with the motor in place. The '68 Hurst Hemi Dart... were they sold with a warranty? I believe that they were delivered with a single tailpipe, throwaway exhaust?? That would keep them from joining the party as they did not come from the factory with dual exhaust. Not wanting to stir the pot too big, but I thought I would share what had been shared with me. Happy New Year and FLAME ON!!!! Snarl softly and carry a BIG stick 1969 Hurst/Olds Pure Stock 13.23@ 103.1 and the a/c blows cold! Rusty Small

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: 383man] #1143647 12/31/11 02:04 PM 12/31/11 02:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A. M mike s top fuel
mike s top fuel M Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.	I agree Ron. However that is where the cheater type cam deal got started.Top guys were bending the rules then too. One more item the cars then were very inconsistant. (tires,drivers etc) Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: mike s] #1143648 12/31/11 02:09 PM 12/31/11 02:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD. Troublemaker427 super stock
Troublemaker427 super stock Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD.	Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Actually the tbolts gave the 64/65 hemi cars fits thats why they came out with the 68 darts and cudas. By 68 the tire size was a 10 in. in ss. Again - a T Blt in AFX spec is going to be way different to a SS car of 1968 - Anyone know what the T Bolts weighed vs the Darts? A T-bolt weighed 3225 lbs. as delivered. Please explain what you mean that a T-bolt in AFX spec is "way different"? The only differance in 1964 was tire size, 7" SS vs. 10" AFX. Ford met the minimum production number required by NHRA to allow them to run SS. Many racers preffered to run them in AFX because they were a hand full on the 7" tires of the day. As Jake said by 1968 SS was on 10" tires. The Darts and Cudas should have also had the advantage of 4 years of additional development. Don't get me wrong, I like them all even though I have mostly Fords. If I could I would have a '64 Race Hemi Dodge in my garage!! I do have the fourth T-bolt built in the garage though.... Respecfully Jody, they never made 100 T-bolts.Made up later maybe but they counted the same cars several times.If I recall things got funny after about 55-60 were built. Couple more things only the very best cars gave the Hemi cars trouble.Most had trouble with Max wedge cars.Check the e.t's Mike, Respectfully back at you, they did build 100 cars. I've researched these cars for over 30 years. I have factory memos, parts lists, and other communications that back this up. I also have the VIN list along with the delivery locations of the cars. I know these cars like the back of my hand. I don't claim to be an expert about Hemi cars but I do know Thunderbolts. Like I said I'm not going to get into a pissing match about who is better. I don't wear blinders when it comes to factory race cars. I like them all. Jody Aberts 1966 Fairlane 427 Troublemaker2 AA/NSS 1964 Galaxie 500XL 390-4spd. 1966 F-100 390-C6 1967 Plymouth VIP 383-TF 2003 Roadking

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: Troublemaker427] #1143649 12/31/11 02:11 PM 12/31/11 02:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Why do the SS/AH cars race by them selves? Why isn't it a T-Bolt, SS Dart, SS Barracuda shoot out? The 64 Hemi Hardtops are a complete different animal than the package cars, with 70 built the numbers are more than the ZL1 Camaro, they should be able to compete in Pure Stock. The ultimate F.A.S.T B-body. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: dannysbee] #1143650 12/31/11 02:34 PM 12/31/11 02:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD. Troublemaker427 super stock
Troublemaker427 super stock Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 722 Hampstead, MD.	Paul Adams, T-bolt racer and current SS/B record holder and former SS/A(@ min. now) has asked to run in the SS/AH shootouts. He was told no. I'd like to see him run at the SS/AH weight. I agree the '64 Hemi hardtop cars should be legal. Quote: Why do the SS/AH cars race by them selves? Why isn't it a T-Bolt, SS Dart, SS Barracuda shoot out? The 64 Hemi Hardtops are a complete different animal than the package cars, with 70 built the numbers are more than the ZL1 Camaro, they should be able to compete in Pure Stock. The ultimate F.A.S.T B-body. Last edited by Troublemaker427; 12/31/11 02:47 PM. Jody Aberts 1966 Fairlane 427 Troublemaker2 AA/NSS 1964 Galaxie 500XL 390-4spd. 1966 F-100 390-C6 1967 Plymouth VIP 383-TF 2003 Roadking

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: dannysbee] #1143651 12/31/11 02:39 PM 12/31/11 02:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,209 NYC M MRVCODE top fuel
MRVCODE top fuel M Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,209 NYC	Quote: Why do the SS/AH cars race by them selves? Why isn't it a T-Bolt, SS Dart, SS Barracuda shoot out? The 64 Hemi Hardtops are a complete different animal than the package cars, with 70 built the numbers are more than the ZL1 Camaro, they should be able to compete in Pure Stock. The ultimate F.A.S.T B-body. I agree;)

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: SmallHurst] #1143652 12/31/11 03:42 PM 12/31/11 03:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Quote: I will refer you to the rules for the Pure Stock Drags: Pure Stock Musclecar Drag Race rules The second paragraph states the reasoning for the '64 and '65 Hemi cars not being allowed to play. It is not having a warranty that keeps them from playing. As for the Yenko that plays, the '67 and '68 Yenko's cannot play because the motor was not installed by GM. In '69, the cars came delivered to Yenko with the 427 already in place. In essence, the '69 Yenko was a COPO car that had stickers and wheels added at the dealership. The ZL-1's and the L-88's were both dragstrip missles, but both were sold with a warranty. If someone wanted to bring a Boss 429 'Stang along, those would be legal as well as they were delivered to the dealer with the motor in place. The '68 Hurst Hemi Dart... were they sold with a warranty? I believe that they were delivered with a single tailpipe, throwaway exhaust?? That would keep them from joining the party as they did not come from the factory with dual exhaust. Not wanting to stir the pot too big, but I thought I would share what had been shared with me. Happy New Year and FLAME ON!!!! Far as the no warranty door that has been opened. The people that bought these cars could have cared less as they were modified before the first payment was due. These were performance car's pure and simple if the Manufacturer did warranty one it was to sell cars. Chrysler must not have had that problem. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: Pure Stock - Oh the humiliation......... [Re: dannysbee] #1143653 12/31/11 05:29 PM 12/31/11 05:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Are the HP2 Belvederes able to run? What about a 62' Maxie Dart? A guy would be hard pressed to compete with an L88 Vette period. Mopar to the bone!!!

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