Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: dusterbd13]
#1134168
12/15/11 12:55 AM
12/15/11 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
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Moog 7103 offset bushing kit installed for more caster (3-5 deg pos.)
1" or bigger T-bars.
Front and rear sway bars. Preferably hollow with an adjustable rear bar.
Bilstein or Spax shocks.
TIRES. TIRES. TIRES. That's going to be a problem with the Dart's rear wheel lip. You are going to be limited to about 245 wide tire in the rear. I'd go 245/45-50/17 front and rear tire on 17x8 rims. I'd lip the rear wheel lips before paint for additional clearance. Even if you didn't 100% appear to need it now.
In the FRONT, if you run 17x8 with about 5.25" backspacing you should clear the bottom front fender lip. If close or need little more room, you can also drill the lower fender support brace hole forward of the factory hole. Moving the brace attachment forward will push the fender bottom out.
Rear backspacing with stock A-body 8 3/4 is maxed at about 4.5". Maybe 4.75" if you run aftermark or cut down large bolt pattern axles. You can always add 1/16" to 1/4 spacers to dial things in perfect and reduce backspacing. You can't gain backspacing easily.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 12/16/11 01:17 AM.
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: ralphie361]
#1134171
12/16/11 01:07 AM
12/16/11 01:07 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
dusterbd13
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
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I'm using the 73 up linkage, and a FFI stage 3 power steering box on mine. id still like a quicker ratio, and a little heavier steering feel.
unfortunately, the quick ratio pitman and idler do not clear the TTI headers I'm running. (well, neither does anything else. don't buy em) so I'm stuck with the ratio. I'm going to shim my power steering pump to drop the pressure a tad.
the c-body tie rods are a nice upgrade, but Ive never had any problems with the stock a-body size.
for what you want, ill spec a middle of the financial road, well handling package. feel free to ignore me.
re-weld the k-frame while its out, adding bracing. look at FFI for inspiration.
box the lower control arms.
put rubber or nylon bushings in them. be done.
FFI stage 3 box, 73-76 steering linkage.
FMJ spindles
1 inch torsion bars
adjustable strut rods
Moog offset bushings or FFI upper control arms
hotchkis rear springs, shocks
helwig, addco, or hotchkis sway bars. biggest you can afford
sub frame connectors
inner fender well braces
core support brace
torque boxes
stitch weld anything you can on the unibody before paint. if its spot welded and accessible, stitch weld it.
17X8 or 17X9 wheels with good tires
Dr. diff 13 inch front and 12 inch rear brakes
hope that helps. I'm being pretty competitive with less than that, but some us undoable now that my car is where it is. at the very least, do the bracing and welding before anything else. the rest can be added piecemeal later. if you shop around, and do your homework, you should probably be able to pull off the whole suspension for about 1700-2000 bucks.
Michael
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: ralphie361]
#1134172
12/16/11 01:17 AM
12/16/11 01:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
|
Quote:
I love that cuda of yours, it looks like you have it dialed in very well. Thanks for all of the info! You confirmed my thoughts about tire clearancing on the rear, and I have a pair of glass fenders on the car now that are pretty persuadable, so I could build the bracing the way I need it. As far as steering goes, I thought that I heard that 73 a body stuff (idler, pitman, centerlink) will quicken it up a bit. I also was suggested c body inners, outers and sleeves. This is my first a body, so I don't know what fits and what doesnt. Would I be better off with stock 69 stuff and upgrade the box later?
73-76 front suspension linkage will not change the steering ratio. Power steering ratio is 16:1 with standard pitman arm.
You can't run a longer T/A pitman with headers on an A-body. No room.
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: dusterbd13]
#1134173
12/16/11 01:26 AM
12/16/11 01:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
|
Quote:
I'm using the 73 up linkage, and a FFI stage 3 power steering box on mine. id still like a quicker ratio, and a little heavier steering feel.
unfortunately, the quick ratio pitman and idler do not clear the TTI headers I'm running. (well, neither does anything else. don't buy em) so I'm stuck with the ratio. I'm going to shim my power steering pump to drop the pressure a tad.
the c-body tie rods are a nice upgrade, but Ive never had any problems with the stock a-body size.
for what you want, ill spec a middle of the financial road, well handling package. feel free to ignore me.
re-weld the k-frame while its out, adding bracing. look at FFI for inspiration.
box the lower control arms.
put rubber or nylon bushings in them. be done.
FFI stage 3 box, 73-76 steering linkage.
FMJ spindles
1 inch torsion bars
adjustable strut rods
Moog offset bushings or FFI upper control arms
hotchkis rear springs, shocks
helwig, addco, or hotchkis sway bars. biggest you can afford
sub frame connectors
inner fender well braces
core support brace
torque boxes
stitch weld anything you can on the unibody before paint. if its spot welded and accessible, stitch weld it.
17X8 or 17X9 wheels with good tires
Dr. diff 13 inch front and 12 inch rear brakes
hope that helps. I'm being pretty competitive with less than that, but some us undoable now that my car is where it is. at the very least, do the bracing and welding before anything else. the rest can be added piecemeal later. if you shop around, and do your homework, you should probably be able to pull off the whole suspension for about 1700-2000 bucks.
Michael
That about what I ran on my Barracuda from 1997 to 2010.
If you still must cut corners on that list and do at a later time... I'd first cut:
-adjustable strut rods. Just make sure to cut your rear poly bushings down 3/16"
-inner fender well braces (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-core support brace (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-torque boxes (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-Dr. diff 13 inch front and 12 inch rear brakes (don't use a whole lot of brake autox'ing. and rears don't do much) If you go out on a road course though, you'll want the brakes much sooner.
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1134175
12/17/11 06:32 AM
12/17/11 06:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm using the 73 up linkage, and a FFI stage 3 power steering box on mine. id still like a quicker ratio, and a little heavier steering feel.
unfortunately, the quick ratio pitman and idler do not clear the TTI headers I'm running. (well, neither does anything else. don't buy em) so I'm stuck with the ratio. I'm going to shim my power steering pump to drop the pressure a tad.
the c-body tie rods are a nice upgrade, but Ive never had any problems with the stock a-body size.
for what you want, ill spec a middle of the financial road, well handling package. feel free to ignore me.
re-weld the k-frame while its out, adding bracing. look at FFI for inspiration.
box the lower control arms.
put rubber or nylon bushings in them. be done.
FFI stage 3 box, 73-76 steering linkage.
FMJ spindles
1 inch torsion bars
adjustable strut rods
Moog offset bushings or FFI upper control arms
hotchkis rear springs, shocks
helwig, addco, or hotchkis sway bars. biggest you can afford
sub frame connectors
inner fender well braces
core support brace
torque boxes
stitch weld anything you can on the unibody before paint. if its spot welded and accessible, stitch weld it.
17X8 or 17X9 wheels with good tires
Dr. diff 13 inch front and 12 inch rear brakes
hope that helps. I'm being pretty competitive with less than that, but some us undoable now that my car is where it is. at the very least, do the bracing and welding before anything else. the rest can be added piecemeal later. if you shop around, and do your homework, you should probably be able to pull off the whole suspension for about 1700-2000 bucks.
Michael
That about what I ran on my Barracuda from 1997 to 2010.
If you still must cut corners on that list and do at a later time... I'd first cut:
-adjustable strut rods. Just make sure to cut your rear poly bushings down 3/16"
-inner fender well braces (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-core support brace (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-torque boxes (if you have to pay someone else to weld them in and make them)
-Dr. diff 13 inch front and 12 inch rear brakes (don't use a whole lot of brake autox'ing. and rears don't do much) If you go out on a road course though, you'll want the brakes much sooner.
add to the list - subframe connectors aftermarket or homemade
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: dangina]
#1134176
12/18/11 01:05 AM
12/18/11 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
dusterbd13
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 257
albemarle, NC
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why would ypou take the subframe connectors off the list?
im willing to argue the point of deleting the chassis stiffening from the list due to budget over the rest of the stuff.
reason being, if you look at the picture, the car is currently a shell. no paint, not finished and blocked for paint, no interior or drivetrain, etc. right now is the ONLY time he can easily and inexpensively do these things. if he waits, it gets exponentially harder and more expensive.
i WISH i had done through the floor subframe connectors, tourque boxes, and stitch welding before i finished my car with paint, interior, etc. its now an extremely majpr undertaing to do any of it, and impossible to do the coor support or inner fender braces without serious investment is body shop fees. and thats even with me learning to weld and making the parts on my own. i still cant/wont paint.
so im just wondering what your thought process were, guys.
michael
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: dusterbd13]
#1134178
12/18/11 10:21 PM
12/18/11 10:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
why would ypou take the subframe connectors off the list?
im willing to argue the point of deleting the chassis stiffening from the list due to budget over the rest of the stuff.
reason being, if you look at the picture, the car is currently a shell. no paint, not finished and blocked for paint, no interior or drivetrain, etc. right now is the ONLY time he can easily and inexpensively do these things. if he waits, it gets exponentially harder and more expensive.
i WISH i had done through the floor subframe connectors, tourque boxes, and stitch welding before i finished my car with paint, interior, etc. its now an extremely majpr undertaing to do any of it, and impossible to do the coor support or inner fender braces without serious investment is body shop fees. and thats even with me learning to weld and making the parts on my own. i still cant/wont paint.
so im just wondering what your thought process were, guys.
michael
my bad - I didn't see that it was stuff he would cut corners on - I meant install subframe connectors as they're cheap and easy to do...as with most chasis stiffening. I agree this is the time to do all that stuff before it gets painted...
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: ralphie361]
#1134179
12/18/11 11:34 PM
12/18/11 11:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Here's my .02 and then some
Poly bushing kit See my website - the strut bushing will need to be modified. Also, seriously consider using firmfeel's greasable shaft for the LCA bushing if that is going to be poly.
73 disc brakes If the car has OEM disks, they are more than adequate. If it doesn't have disks now, then your plan is OK. You probably also have a plan to make the bolt pattern match all around, so enough said.
moog ball joints, OK
.870 torsion bars (was a 340 car) Not OK. Not enough rate for any sort of competition or near competition tire. 1.03" dia is the minimum unless the car is very stripped down. The choice of front and rear spring and roll rates should relate closely to the vehicle weight and weight distribution as run in competion. It also relates to the competiotion tire choice.
welded in fabbed subframe connectors Put the torque boxes in first. It's neater and more factory looking that way. Check the class rules. For example, SCCA Street Prepared now allows frame connectors but connection points are restricted.
and factory front sway bar. Same problem as the T-bars. Not enough rate. Fine for cruising, not for competing on r-comps. If you are using the '69 K, then add a 3rd bolt to the mounting pad. e-mail me for pics if you need.
There are some advantages and disadvantages by going to the 16 or 17 inch rims. The disadvantages are weight and height. The rear height can be (and should be) dropped with the front spring eye location. The front has a number of solutions, the one you'll want will depend on class rules, cost, and height and motion requirements. I simply use a cut down and shaped rubber bump stop, but I also use a short wheel tire combo for autocrossing. ( and a tall tire on 14" rims for what passes for roadways around here)
Choosing the rear springs is perhaps the most difficult part. Not much good info out there and a lot of BS. The leafs need to position the rear axle laterally, control wrap (stiff front half) and be positioned to provide anti-squat as much as possible. They need to provide ride height for the rear weight carried during competion. The ride height will depend on the rate and the free arch. If the car is not going to be a high speed track car, then consider a (relatively) softer spring rate and a very light rear sway bar. Or, if you are going to do some high speed stuff, be careful and consider disconnecting the sway bar, at least for the initial trials.
A few other important things for autocross.
Shocks. Very important. The right ones for you will depend on ride height (cause you don't want to bottom out the shocks), cost, as well as spring rate. The cost for double adjustables and remote reseviors can get very high. I don't see any reason to start there.
Oil control. Consider the new milodon oil pan. Cheaper alternative is a stock pan, with sump baffles and baffles along the side walls. The Kevco pan might be alright if your roads are good enough it won't get hit. Up top, eventually you will have to move the breathers and PCV so they don't load up on downhill sweepers. This problem doesn't always arise - it depends somehat on how sloped the lot is as well as the g's and duration of the turn.
Steve's point on being in shape is a good one. I credit a first place win to being in better condition than my competitors. Besides the weight factor, it can be somewhat physically demanding day.
Last edited by Mattax; 12/18/11 11:41 PM.
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: ralphie361]
#1134180
12/19/11 11:32 PM
12/19/11 11:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
Hotchkis
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Thanks for all the help everyone  , I think they were just saying that it can be pretty expensive to have someone fab and weld in those things, the other parts are bolt ons. I actually have already made my own subframe connectors and have them tacked in, and I am doing all of my own welding and body repair to keep it in the budget. That way I will have some cash left over to buy the things I can't make.
Ralphie361 – Swingers are cool! They’re not too small and not too big. Great combo for performance and handling potential…and they look cool too!
It looks like you’ve done a great job with your homemade subframe connectors too.
Here’s a picture of Shannon Hudson’s Hotchkis TVS-equipped ‘69 Valiant!
We’ve got everything you need to make your Mopar handle well. 
http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Make=49&Model=1356&SubmitForm=Search
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: Hotchkis]
#1134181
12/20/11 11:30 AM
12/20/11 11:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Oh Yes. Reserve a budget for tires. Autocross is a game. Like any other game, you need to understand the rules, the tactics, and get experience if you wish to be good at it. Even if you just want to be good enough to have fun at it, go test the waters with any dang car you like. Results: SOLOII SERIES EVENT 6 see Class: STREET MODIFIED The second place in the series was through a strategy of persistance and moderate success which put in me in a better position than drivers and cars that had beaten me in various individual events. There also are other versions of this game, some sanctioned by other groups, some at higher speeds, some non-timed and non-competitve. See what is available locally and what may be available at the closest road course tracks for non-race cars. Hill climbs and timed competitive high speed events require safety related race mods to the vehicle.
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Re: Autocross Swinger
[Re: Mattax]
#1134182
12/20/11 11:53 AM
12/20/11 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 619
nj
JAMESDART
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 619
nj
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if you go with a wider rear axle, you can run the same bs rims front and rear. im not positive if it will work in the dart but im running an explorer rear in my duster. its about 1/2" wider than a b body 8 3/4 so that is another option if you want to stay mopar, they both worked great to run 17x8 mustang rims with 5.72 backspace and 245 45 17s. tires are pretty close to the springs so it should work in a dart. i could get you some emasurements if you need. they fit on the front too with a little work. the tires and rims made a huge difference in the way the car handles.
im running the moog offset ca bushings, a hellwig tube bar, kyb shock that i want to replace, boxed lower ca moog bushing there too, moog bj, rms strut rods wirth heim joints which really help suspension movement, stock parts store ps box with shimmed ps pump, home made shock tower braces under the inenr fender, us car tool frame connectors, and espo 6 leaf springs. i havent had it on any kind of road coarse or anything but it is a lot of fun on the street.
another thing the sway bar for the 73+ k frame is a much better setup, if you run a lot of backspace, it will clear the rims. if you can get the 73+ k frame jump on it and run a newer stle sway bar. really i dont see why you can cut out the bottom of the older k frame and run the newer sway bar if you wanted to go that route.
Last edited by JAMESDART; 12/20/11 11:56 AM.
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Any thoughts on best place to start upgrading?
