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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110318
11/12/11 07:23 PM
11/12/11 07:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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I got one and only one pass, the transmission is now peeing fluid out the bellhousing area. It probably cracked the converter hub. So with no tuning at all, leaving at 2000 rpm on a foot brake it went 9.756 @ 134.67 with a 1.324 60 foot. 6.155 @ 110.34 in the 1/8. I'm happy with that for now. I know the converter is way too loose so this will give me the chance to do some updating as well.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: StrokerAspen]
#1110321
11/12/11 11:05 PM
11/12/11 11:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Right on Steve! Looks like your doing things right! I bet it will pick up a tenth when we get those sweet custom stickers on it!
-Kenny 
They are custom stickers Kenny. That has to be worth 2 tenths at least. 
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: StrokerAspen]
#1110323
11/12/11 11:44 PM
11/12/11 11:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Hahaha, I guess so eh?
So, do you already have a license for the times that rig is cracking off now??
-Kenny
Yeah, I've been licensed for awhile as I drove for other people too.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110324
11/13/11 12:30 AM
11/13/11 12:30 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 492
South Jersey, NJ
DragDart360
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 492
South Jersey, NJ
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Nice run, congrats! There's more, good luck
70 Dart Swinger, 2850 lbs
SB 408, Bullet roller 264/268 @50 .636 SSDS stage 2 Edelbrock heads, 1 7/8 Headmans, 1050 dominator by Dom, 9.867 @ 133
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: WHITEDART]
#1110326
11/13/11 09:20 AM
11/13/11 09:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,027
MN
JERICOGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,027
MN
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Nice run. I was only off on the mph. I would bet the TA convertor is holding you back mph wise.
It will get faster.
Jeff
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: JERICOGTX]
#1110327
11/13/11 09:33 AM
11/13/11 09:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Nice run. I was only off on the mph. I would bet the TA convertor is holding you back mph wise.
It will get faster.
Jeff
Yep, you were very close. The converter is a problem at this point but if the hub isn't cracked it's going back in the car for now. Only had 30* of timing in it too.
I've got a spare 9" Hughes that I'm thinking of putting in the car, just not sure if I trust it.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110328
11/13/11 07:37 PM
11/13/11 07:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Pulled the trans today, half of the converter hub is broken totally off and the other half is cracked in 3 places.
I talked to Paul Forte from Turbo Action yesterday at the track and he has some upgraded components for the 904 so I'll be sending the converter to him and machining the reaction shaft for the better hub. I know it's the weak link of the 904 and this isn't the first hub I've broken but it's been in the car for 15 years so I'm not complaining.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110329
11/13/11 09:00 PM
11/13/11 09:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
340B5
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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I'm quite impressed by the ET. That ET on the first time out should take some of the pain out of the broken parts.
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: 340B5]
#1110330
11/13/11 11:51 PM
11/13/11 11:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
I'm quite impressed by the ET. That ET on the first time out should take some of the pain out of the broken parts.
Oh I'm not upset in the least. I upgraded the driveshaft and u joints in anticipation of the increased power but there is always the weak link that will show itself. It's just money, money I don't have right now though...
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110331
11/14/11 04:27 AM
11/14/11 04:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 369
California, USA!!!
WheelsUp73
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 369
California, USA!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2650 is with me in it as it sits on the line. Maybe I should mention these are small chamber W5's with double quench pads, .032 piston to head.
At .032 piston to head you are risking having the piston hit the head at upper RPM's... .038 clearence is as tight as I would set it up at. Good luck! My 11.to 1 410 with edelbrock heads and 600 lift solid lifter cam ran 10.08 at 131, race weight 3134 #s
My old engine was .027 piston to head. 7500 rpm and more without a problem.
Your clueless
Quest
Squish, Quench, and Piston-to-Head Clearance
From the February, 2009 issue of Chevy High Performance
By Jeff Smith
Photography by Jeff Smith
This illustrates the basic layout of a piston, deck height, head gasket, and combustion chamber. Piston- to-head clearance is the combination of the deck height clearance of the piston and the compressed (installed) thickness of the head gasket.
Quench in a wedge-shaped combustion... read full caption
Quench in a wedge-shaped combustion chamber is the area between the top of the piston and the flat portion of the combustion chamber. A flattop piston with a 0.005-inch negative deck height (below deck) along with a 0.41-inch gasket (compressed thickness) represents a piston-to-head clearance of 0.046 inch, which is tight.
This photo shows the stock... read full caption
This photo shows the stock cast piston used in the Goodwrench service replacement engine. This is an older-design piston that uses a full dish (concave design) that eliminates most of the quench effect regardless of the piston-to- head clearance.
These three pistons represent... read full caption
These three pistons represent three different head configurations. The flattop piston with valve reliefs (left) is the simplest. The middle piston is a half-dished piston that utilizes a dish to reduce compression while maintaining the flat portion of the piston to create a quench effect. The domed piston (right) increases compression but still retains a flat portion for the quench effect.
Hi-Tech offers the Jim McFarland-designed... read full caption
Hi-Tech offers the Jim McFarland-designed Swirl/Quench hypereutectic piston designed to increase swirl and turbulence, and intended for use with the older, bathtub-shaped small-block Chevy combustion chambers. Independent testing has found as much as 5 percent improvements in torque and horsepower.
Taking the Swirl/Quench... read full caption
Taking the Swirl/Quench concept one step further, JE now offers a different configuration as a dished piston that still uses a mild ramp and dimples to create turbulence in the chamber and to direct combustion by-products toward the exhaust side of the chamber to increased cylinder scavenging. Here too, you can see a dished piston with a flat portion to increase the effects of squish.
7 As the piston reaches TDC,... read full caption
7 As the piston reaches TDC, the air/fuel mixture is squeezed out from the quench area and creates turbulence in the chamber.
Chamber design can have a... read full caption
Chamber design can have a dramatic effect on combustion efficiency and power. Compare the old D-shaped small-block chamber...
...to the much more aggressive... read full caption
...to the much more aggressive kidney-shaped chamber that requires less ignition timing to make more power, often with less fuel.
The more we learn about engines, the more it becomes apparent that every detail is important when building a high-performance engine. Sure, the big components like heads, cams, intakes, carbs, and exhaust are crucial to building power.
But there are also those subtle details that often go unnoticed. If you’ve ever wondered how a professional engine builder squeezes 450 hp out of a small-block while your identical twin barely makes 390 hp, the difference is probably in the details.
All the tuning and games we play with camshafts, cylinder heads, and headers are aimed at helping the combustion process. That’s when the mixture starts to burn and the air and fuel turn into cylinder pressure that pushes the piston down. But there are plenty of subtle little things that can influence the combustion process that you may not have heard of before. That’s what we’re going to look into in this story.
For decades, sharp engine builders have known about “quench” or “squish.” These terms refer to the area in a wedge-shaped chamber designed to create turbulence in the chamber as the piston approaches top dead center (TDC). This squish effect can also occur in other types of chambers as well. We will limit our discussion in this story to small-block Chevys, but the basic facts relate to all wedge-shaped combustion chambers.
The quench area is the tight area between the flat portion of the piston and the flat portion of the combustion chamber in a typical wedge-style chamber. As the piston reaches TDC and the mixture begins to burn, the air and fuel located between the piston and the head is squeezed or squished out into the dished portion of the combustion chamber. Think of the turbulence that occurs when you smash a tomato with a large mallet and you get the idea. With a flat-top piston, this squish area can be very tight. This is also the tightest clearance between the piston and the cylinder head. Since mechanical contact between the piston and the head is not advisable, most production engines rely on a piston-to-head clearance of 0.060-inch or more in this area.
Unfortunately, this is not an ideal piston-to-head clearance for optimal squish. But because of production tolerances, factory engines usually fall on the larger side of the clearance for obvious reasons. But when it comes to optimizing a performance engine for more torque and horsepower, this is an area where a knowledgeable engine builder can squeeze out a little more power.
The Squish Effect
Since wedge-style combustion chambers rely on the squish or quench area to create turbulence in the combustion chamber, an intriguing effect occurs in the combustion process. To better understand this process, imagine that the intake valve opens and a rush of air mixed with fuel enters the combustion chamber area. The piston comes screaming up toward TDC at 5,000 rpm (almost 3,000 feet per minute) as the intake valve closes. As the piston reaches TDC, a virtual hurricane of fuel and air is squished out into the chamber from this tight area between the piston and the head. While this turbulence sounds bad, the opposite is true. This turbulence has the effect of more thoroughly mixing the air and fuel into a much more homogenous mixture that tends to burn much more quickly and efficiently.
One way to produce maximum power from an engine is to use the least amount of fuel necessary to create maximum power while attempting to burn all of it. Given this, if you can evenly mix the air and fuel into a homogenous mixture with an extremely fine mist of fuel, you will make outstanding power.
Unfortunately, the opposite is also true—varying pockets of lean and rich mixtures within the cylinder when the spark plug fires will cost power and the combustion process will not be as smooth. Excessively lean or rich pockets within the chamber directly affect the rate of combustion and the amount of pressure applied to the piston. Rich mixtures tend to burn slower, while lean mixtures generally burn at a faster rate than a “proper” air-fuel mixture. If modifications to the chamber or piston affect these rates, the ignition timing will also need to be changed to optimize power.
What is the proper air/fuel mixture? In the last few years, the answer has been changing as the area between the combustion chamber and the top of the piston becomes more efficient. For example, the classic air/fuel ratio has always been 12.5:1, meaning 12.5 parts of air for every one part of fuel. But many race and properly designed street engines can make best power with air/fuel ratios now approaching 12.8 to 13:1.
So now let’s introduce a tighter quench space into this equation. All of the respected engine builders who we’ve talked to are firm believers in minimizing the quench clearance. According to Ken Duttweiler, the tightest quench he recommends is around 0.050-inch. He has built engines with far tighter clearances than this, but much of this depends on the piston-to-wall clearance. All pistons tend to rock slightly as they transition through TDC and this rocking motion reduces the piston-to-head clearance. Smaller-diameter pistons with tight piston-to-wall clearances don’t rock nearly as much in the cylinder bore compared to larger-bore pistons with wider piston-to-wall clearances.
Since piston clearance plays such a big part in piston-to-head clearance, it is possible to run a piston-to-head clearance tighter than 0.040-inch if you feel brave. Noted horsepower hero John Lingenfelter says that clearances of 0.037 to 0.040 inch are possible, but you must know what you’re doing. The late Smokey Yunick also recommended a quench clearance of 0.040 inch as a safe but critical clearance.
Advantages
So what are the benefits of all this squishing and quenching? The benefits are small, but >> often important. Pump-gas engines that run on the ragged edge of detonation, for example, can greatly benefit from a tighter piston-to-head clearance to reduce rattle. That sounds contradictory since increasing compression should lead to increased detonation. All the engine builders we spoke to mentioned that tightening the quench (reducing the piston-to-head clearance) to get it under 0.050 inch will increase the static-compression ratio, but this tighter clearance also creates a more powerful squish effect. This additional turbulence creates a more homogenous “soup” in the chamber, reducing the harmful effects of lean air/fuel ratio pockets. With all other variables being equal, this contributes to creating an engine that is less prone to detonation.
We tried this on a recent dyno flog of a 383ci small-block. To keep the compression at around 9.5:1, we used a set of 0.050-inch head gaskets that created a wide piston-to-head clearance of around 0.060 inch. CHP engine flogger Ed Taylor swapped in a set of 0.040-inch Fel-Pro head gaskets and then tested the engine again. We witnessed only a marginal gain of around 2 to 3 hp (less than 1 percent), but it’s doubtful that the marginal increase in compression was responsible. Clearly, tightening quench with a thinner gasket had something to do with the increase in power. Tightening the quench area often results in the reduction of ignition timing requirements. This can then lead to a reduction in negative work (the cylinder pressure rising while the piston is still approaching TDC). This often is evidenced by a gain in low- and mid-range torque.
There is plenty of discussion about the net effect of squish and quench. While it’s doubtful that this will ever amount to more than a few horsepower in any street application, it does offer some distinct advantages when it comes to increased engine efficiency, better fuel mileage, and driveability. If you’ve ever wondered why certain engines run better than others, this could be one reason why.
Federal-Mogul Corp.
P.O. Box 1966
Detroit
MI 48235
810-354-7700
www.federal-mogul.com JE Pistons
Hi-Tech Engine Components
Salt Lake City
UT 84104
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: WheelsUp73]
#1110332
11/14/11 06:39 AM
11/14/11 06:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2650 is with me in it as it sits on the line. Maybe I should mention these are small chamber W5's with double quench pads, .032 piston to head.
At .032 piston to head you are risking having the piston hit the head at upper RPM's... .038 clearence is as tight as I would set it up at. Good luck! My 11.to 1 410 with edelbrock heads and 600 lift solid lifter cam ran 10.08 at 131, race weight 3134 #s
My old engine was .027 piston to head. 7500 rpm and more without a problem.
Your clueless
Ha, ha, you are the clueless one dude. Just wondering when you actually learned it all so you could impart your superior knowledge on us unlearned masses. .011 out of the hole, .038 gasket and you get .027 piston to head and guess what Mr. Knowitall. They don't hit. That engine was in the car for 15 years. It's still together too if you'd like to come and look at it yourself. I have piston to valve clearances that you probably wouldn't approve of either because you only regurgitate what the magazine jockeys repeat. .058 int/.074 exh. with a solid flat tappet cam and guess what, they never hit either. So put that in your d-bag and smoke it.
BTW your means it belongs to you, you're means you are.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1110333
11/14/11 11:44 AM
11/14/11 11:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
340B5
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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I'll second that. If you believe everything you read, there's a problem. Maybe if we all yanked sky high wleelstands(whizzing away ET) we'd all gain "higher knowledge".
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: camastomcat]
#1110335
11/14/11 01:17 PM
11/14/11 01:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Perhaps I'm an idiot too, but .032 sounds real tight to me. I'm not an engine builder by trade and I run aluminum rods but my piston to head clearance is at least .080. Maybe the guy from Shady Dell could pipe up? I'm curious now.
Aluminum rods require more clearance.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: camastomcat]
#1110336
11/14/11 01:30 PM
11/14/11 01:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
340B5
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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Compression height should be considered too. The more aluminum between the crank and head, the more clearance you need. And then the type(grade) of aluminum.
Last edited by 340B5; 11/14/11 01:37 PM.
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: OK, first passes on the 408, guess the ET and MPH
[Re: WheelsUp73]
#1110337
11/14/11 02:18 PM
11/14/11 02:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
StrokerAspen
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2650 is with me in it as it sits on the line. Maybe I should mention these are small chamber W5's with double quench pads, .032 piston to head.
At .032 piston to head you are risking having the piston hit the head at upper RPM's... .038 clearence is as tight as I would set it up at. Good luck! My 11.to 1 410 with edelbrock heads and 600 lift solid lifter cam ran 10.08 at 131, race weight 3134 #s
My old engine was .027 piston to head. 7500 rpm and more without a problem.
Your clueless
WOW! Really?! I haven't really spoke up on some of the comments you have posted so far, because they didn't really affect me. Now your insulting someone I call a friend, over his build that he did NOTHING wrong on!
His 363 ran a tight quench for years! It worked very good for how small it was.
Steve knows what he is doing. For you to come out and say he is CLUELESS is un called for, and not very sportsman like.
Magazines can have some good info, the internet can have some good info, other racers can have some good info. None of these are a 100% correct all the time.
-Kenny
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the tighter the better... just cant get too sloppy on the skirt 
