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What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? #1071449
09/08/11 03:40 PM
09/08/11 03:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655
Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340 Offline OP
top fuel
kentj340  Offline OP
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655
Cut and Shoot, TX
Check out the “Ask Ray” tech column in the Oct ’11 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines. Ray Bohacz says he would not rebuild an engine, even a restoration, with a flat-tappet cam.

“I would suggest to all readers who are considering an engine rebuild to move up to one of the many new roller hydraulic cams offered for older engines. They make power like a freight train, idle slow and smooth with excellent vacuum, and remove all of the concerns about zinc in the oil… Roller hydraulic is the way to go” for street/strip or just street.

He makes specific suggestions on what performance criteria you need to address when buying a cam, especially for street driving.

Roller hydraulic in an otherwise stock engine using pump gas is a new idea for me. Hey, maybe I can get 340 hp out of my 340 4–barrel restoration with stock intake and exhaust for street? Or more???

Has anyone used a roller hydraulic in a 340 4-speed with factory intake and exhaust? How did you like it? Was the cost worth it? Did you need new rockers? Any lubrication issues with the tappets?

Looks like the cost is around $1,000 for cam, tappets, and springs from Comp Cams. 20% more from Crane. Recommended idle speed is 800 rpm instead of Mopar 700 rpm in shop manual, which sounds tolerable.


If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: kentj340] #1071450
09/08/11 11:49 PM
09/08/11 11:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,410
Michigan
MarkZ Online boogie
Worthy
MarkZ  Online Boogie
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Posts: 4,410
Michigan
Once you've rolled a lobe you'll never go back to a flat tappet. The attached picture is what is left of the intake lifter from cylinder #3 on my old 360. It not only wasted the cam, but took the cam and crank bearings with it. It even scored my crank to the point where I had to get it ground .010" to clean up. A total rebuild on an 11,000 mile motor.

I drove to Maryland to pickup a free (thanks Reggie!) 1991 360 LA block. For three years Mopar made 360 LA blocks with factory roller cams, negating the need to run the retrofit roller lifters that cost a ton of money. Since I already had LA Eddie heads, going Magnum was out of the question. Even after taking what I spent in gas (was only $2.50 that summer) I was still ahead about $300.

The motor isn't in the car yet, so I don't have any street experience with roller cams yet. I'm running with yet another 360 while I gather parts to build that roller block into a 408.

6817503-lifter.JPG (56 downloads)
Last edited by MarkM; 09/08/11 11:50 PM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: MarkZ] #1071451
09/09/11 02:49 AM
09/09/11 02:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Quote:

Once you've rolled a lobe you'll never go back to a flat tappet.




I hear a lot of guys saying that, yet they leave the cost part out of the equation. For a 440, I can put in a relatively hot street cam and still run it with stock rockers. Do a roller and I need $$$ retrofit roller lifters, more expensive cam and an adjustable valvetrain. Seems even if I cheaped out as hard as possible I'd still be in an extra $1-1.5 k.

Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1071452
09/09/11 10:08 AM
09/09/11 10:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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patrick  Offline
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
Quote:

Quote:

Once you've rolled a lobe you'll never go back to a flat tappet.




I hear a lot of guys saying that, yet they leave the cost part out of the equation. For a 440, I can put in a relatively hot street cam and still run it with stock rockers. Do a roller and I need $$$ retrofit roller lifters, more expensive cam and an adjustable valvetrain. Seems even if I cheaped out as hard as possible I'd still be in an extra $1-1.5 k.




if you're a small block guy, it's a no brainer...pick up one of the 2-3 million magnum engines and get the cam reground. if it's a good clean engine, inspect the factory lifters, if in good shape, reuse. springs are the only hard part on this, the only real viable option given OEM installed height are the hughes #1110 without serious head mods.

big block, yeah, it's more expensive, and you have the bronze dizzy drive issue...but if you look at IIRC crower and hughes, they have much more reasonably priced US made retrofit roller lifters now...

I ditched my flat tappet 360 for a reground roller/magnum head 318 and have no regrets. similar power, better drivability and economy.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: patrick] #1071453
09/09/11 10:51 AM
09/09/11 10:51 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
S
scratchnfotraction Offline
I Live Here
scratchnfotraction  Offline
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Posts: 15,487
Florida


roller cam is the way to go

I swaped my 88 318 to roller cam back in 07 and spent 700$ or so on the swap,used all stock roller gear from used JY engine.

just pulled that roller cam out and stuck it in my 91 318 from the JY last week,just swaped the cam and was done.

if your doing a older LA engine get a long nose cam for the mech fuel pump.

I took Patricks recomendation on the lunati VooDoo roller cam 60710
258/264
207/213
.485/.485

and used the comp 901-16 spring with stock seals/retainers/rockers/PRs

and they are oil thru roller lifters with hollow rods,so a head swap to some mag heads are a simple bolt on upgrade next.

worked great with the 360 headed 318 in my 85 truck and its in a 91 318 with #302 heads now. great to not worry about cam break in,stab it and jab it

by the way Patrick,it works great with the #302 heads,you can hear the cam a little more on the idle,great throttle responce,has more low end but is a little slower to redline compaired to the 360 heads,mpgs are back up to 19-20 mpg

Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 09/09/11 03:57 PM.
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: kentj340] #1071454
09/09/11 12:38 PM
09/09/11 12:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 179
Up in the North and Far Away
A
AutoEngineer Offline
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AutoEngineer  Offline
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Up in the North and Far Away
Quote:

Check out the “Ask Ray” tech column in the Oct ’11 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines. Ray Bohacz says he would not rebuild an engine, even a restoration, with a flat-tappet cam.

“I would suggest to all readers who are considering an engine rebuild to move up to one of the many new roller hydraulic cams offered for older engines. They make power like a freight train, idle slow and smooth with excellent vacuum. Roller hydraulic is the way to go” for street/strip or just street.





It's a great upgrade to the ancient flat tappet technology.

I am just about to start upgrading a 440 for a restored B-body. The motor is going to get some modern technology upgrade, but still looking outwards like it rolled out of the factory

Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: scratchnfotraction] #1071455
09/09/11 02:08 PM
09/09/11 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
I Live Here
patrick  Offline
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
sweet scratchin'....now try some magnum heads with hughes #1110 springs....


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: AutoEngineer] #1071456
09/09/11 03:26 PM
09/09/11 03:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
Quote:

Quote:

Check out the “Ask Ray” tech column in the Oct ’11 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines. Ray Bohacz says he would not rebuild an engine, even a restoration, with a flat-tappet cam.

“I would suggest to all readers who are considering an engine rebuild to move up to one of the many new roller hydraulic cams offered for older engines. They make power like a freight train, idle slow and smooth with excellent vacuum. Roller hydraulic is the way to go” for street/strip or just street.





It's a great upgrade to the ancient flat tappet technology.

I am just about to start upgrading a 440 for a restored B-body. The motor is going to get some modern technology upgrade, but still looking outwards like it rolled out of the factory





I wanted the same look for my 1970 6bbl e-body. Having modern internals, enhanced performance and still looking "stock-ish" to the majority of people who take a peak under the hood. The look of the engine regarding modifications is a gray area....or should I say an orange area.

To a trained/ knowlegeble Mopar person, any change or variation on a subtle detail is very telling of any modifications. The general public who love Mopars have no idea as long as things appear normal to the casual glance. Once closely inpected, the subtrafuge will quickly evaporate. The Shaker hood does help keep things under cover.

To most people though, run the stock valve covers and paint the long block hemi orange, slap on some factory decals , and the motor looks factory with the exception of the headers, ignition and such.

I'm running a "stock-looking" Hughes built 493 inch motor with ported Indy EZ heads and a little .550" lift hydraulic roller that's super easy on the vavle train.

Once I put stock valve covers on it and painted the long block Hemi Orange, 99% of people think its just a factory 6bbl 440. They never seem to notice the heads or valley pan like a Moparts member would.

The nice part is it puts out 684 horsepower/682 ft lbs of torque at 5500 rpm, idles with authority, runs the A/C without issue and is super streetable, especially with the sixpack. I'm getting 12 highway and 9 city so far, and that's without Jamies' 5 speed.

To show how much people only see what the expect to see, no ones even noticed the car has been retrofitted with A/C yet.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: jbc426] #1071457
09/09/11 05:35 PM
09/09/11 05:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
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Balt. Md
One of the biggest reason I did not go with a solid roller was because if you plan to race your car sometimes (street/strip car) you need to run alot of spring pressure to make sure you have no chance of floating the valves as thats one of the worst things for a roller type lifter. You dont want to damage a lifter or have a roller pin break. Once you have a roller lifter come apart you got major eng problems most of the time. As I was told by a very good eng builder if you run a good solid roller cam for racing your car you should check or replace the solid rollers every 3000 miles or about. Now this is mainly for solid rollers that get raced and use alot of spring pressure as they should. You dont want a lifer coming apart and wasting your eng. I knew I dont mind adjusting my valves once a year as thats all they need even when I put over 3000 miles a year on my 63. But I dont want to pull and check my lifters ever 3000 miles or so with my bad back.

Now I know there are some who run rollers and get away with many more miles but this eng builder told me he has seen it to much and if I run the solid rollers he strongly recomends I replace the lifters every 3000 miles because if one breaks a roller pin it will be big trouble and he has seen a good bit of them breaking lifters. He knows I like to drive my car alot and I was planning on using a solid roller until I heard this. And I really like this solid flat tapped he ground for me. It runs strong as it ran 11.0's bucking in the top of each gear running to lean so I know it has easy 10's in it.
Just a little info I though should be passed on. The reason for this is the rollers need alot of spring pressure to be sure the lifters don't float as if they do they can bounce against the lifter and that is bad on the roller pins. So you have to run much more spring pressure with a roller if you plan to race it and run it hard. And if you run the right pressure you need a good valvetrain to hold up. If you dont run the high spring pressure it calls for you run the risk of valve float. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 09/09/11 05:38 PM.
Re: What Cam? Get a Roller Hydraulic for Restoring Oldie? [Re: 383man] #1071458
09/09/11 08:04 PM
09/09/11 08:04 PM
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Posts: 7,664
IN
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ahy Offline
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The roller is a more capable design, no question. In a BB engine not designed for it originally there are some sizeable drawbacks though. Cost and maintenance (bronze gear, inspect & rebuild lifters)are the biggies. If you push rate of lift into the race category, add springs to the maintenance requirements.

FT durability is also greatly improved with good understanding of the need for extra zinc in oil, EDM drilled lifters and nitrided cams. Plus there are effective fast rate FT profiles that don't give much performance up to a roller speced for street use.

I've got about 9k miles on a fast solid FT and love it. Its a MM lobe 243@.050" .55 lift grind from Muscle Motors. I would chose a FT again for a "fast street" build.







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