68 Charger - still no brakelights. GOT IT!!!!!
#1024422
07/02/11 12:55 PM
07/02/11 12:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
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I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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This is driving me crazy. Recap: No tail-lights, No brake-lights. But my blinkers work fine. I've attached the wiring diagram. Refer to the Direction Signal Switch Connection block: Power should come in on "7", "6" and "8" are power back out to the left and right brakelights. I have 12V coming into "7" on the block (when I press the brake). When pressing the brake I get 12V across 7 & 6, and 7 & 8. Thinking the problem might be somewhere in the blinker switch itself, I ran a jumper across 7 & 6, and 7 & 8, and pressed the brake. Still nothing. That's the part that stumps me. The blinkers work by 12V coming in on "2", and being routed back out to "6" or "8" (left of right blinker). I can't see why the brakelights would not come on when I apply 12V to 6 or 8 by jumping the 12V available on "7". I'm assuming everything else in the wiring is OK because my blinkers work. The only real difference with the blinkers is power coming into "2" on the block instead of "7". I must be fundamentally mis-understanding something here. Any ideas?
Last edited by Gusteve; 07/08/11 07:34 PM.
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: Gusteve]
#1024423
07/02/11 01:31 PM
07/02/11 01:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291 West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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Start by running a test to the rear wiring harness connector using a different known-good 12+ source and verify that it's not your rear wiring harness. That will tell you if your harnes and lighting grounds are ok.
Use a test light to verify power at the source for the brake and tail lamps, if you haven't already.
I'll try and look at the rest of your harness diagram on-line, but if you post it, that would be helpful.
I have had a driver's tail light not work due to a partially melted turnsignal switch contact.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: jbc426]
#1024424
07/02/11 01:45 PM
07/02/11 01:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
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Flint, MI
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I'll do what you suggested on the rear harness although I've been assuming all that must be fine because the blinkers work. The blinkers use the same circuit on the rear wiring harness as the brakelights. I suppose it's possible than when the blinker is on it's getting some kind of ground through the front turn signal that is not available when only the brakes are pressed. (But I didn't see anything that looked like that I looked at the diagram.) I've verified power all the way up where it comes in to the turn signal connector, and all is good. Here's the rest of the diagram. Thanks for any help you can provide.
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: Gusteve]
#1024425
07/02/11 02:10 PM
07/02/11 02:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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Flint, MI
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OK - this just keeps getting stranger.
On the first diagram at the top is the connector for the rear wiring harness. From what I can tell it's like this:
Black (2) is 12V for tailights Dk Green (3) is 12V for left brakelight Brown (6) is 12V for right brakelight
At the connector, I get 12V coming in on 3 & 6 when I press the brake. (Or on each of those individually when I hit the blinkers). So I think that eliminates anything to do with the turn signal switch.
I applied 12V to 2,3 and 6 on the connector going back to the brakelights, and got nothing. I connected my ohm meter and noticed that all three of the connections have continuity to ground, and to each other. I'm assuming that's OK since the bulb itself in the tailight goes to ground.
So - if I apply 12V directly myself they do not work, if I step on the brake it's applying 12v in that same spot and it doesn't work. But the Blinkers (which apply 12V at that exact same spot) do work. How can that be?
Last edited by Gusteve; 07/02/11 02:13 PM.
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: Gusteve]
#1024426
07/02/11 02:11 PM
07/02/11 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,088 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,088
Niles , Ohio
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If the turn and park work the grounds are fine.That wouldnt have the brakess not working.Its 99 % in the switch.You can test it easy by using a known good switch and just connecting it at the plug.That way you dont have to pull the wheel apart.I always have at least one spare switch for my 65.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: therocks]
#1024427
07/02/11 02:19 PM
07/02/11 02:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
If the turn and park work the grounds are fine.That wouldnt have the brakess not working.Its 99 % in the switch.You can test it easy by using a known good switch and just connecting it at the plug.That way you dont have to pull the wheel apart.I always have at least one spare switch for my 65.Rocky
Parking lights don't work either - but I wasn't going to attack that until I got the brake lights working. It's probably the same problem.
Since I'm getting 12V at the connector to the rear harness I think I've eliminated the turn signal switch as a possible problem.
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: therocks]
#1024429
07/02/11 04:29 PM
07/02/11 04:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,160 Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,160
Mass
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Quote:
If the turn and park work the grounds are fine.That wouldnt have the brakess not working.Its 99 % in the switch.You can test it easy by using a known good switch and just connecting it at the plug.That way you dont have to pull the wheel apart.I always have at least one spare switch for my 65.Rocky
Best advice, just disconnect the harness under the column and plug in a GOOD/NEW switch to eliminate the turnsignal switch,....68-70 B bodies are notorious for brake light problems,.....and as stated, 99% of the time you eventually end up at the turn signal switch after exhausting every other troubleshooting method,....anybody who's ever owned a 68-70 B body for years, has been there at one time or another with brake light issues,.....change the turnsignal switch
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1024430
07/02/11 04:50 PM
07/02/11 04:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
Best advice, just disconnect the harness under the column and plug in a GOOD/NEW switch to eliminate the turnsignal switch,....68-70 B bodies are notorious for brake light problems,.....and as stated, 99% of the time you eventually end up at the turn signal switch after exhausting every other troubleshooting method,....anybody who's ever owned a 68-70 B body for years, has been there at one time or another with brake light issues,.....change the turnsignal switch
Well, rats. That would mean I can't drive my car all weekend.
Any suggestions on where to buy the switch and harness? A quick check of Year One shows $145, but I assume it's far cheaper somewhere else. I really hate to spend money guessing at a problem, though. I already have a new $100 headlight switch that I bought last week that it looks like I didn't need.
I'm seriously tempted to rig up a temporary by-pass just so I have brakelights to drive the car this weekend.....
Although, I have to say, it still makes no sense. I disconnected the turn signal switch, and ran the 12v that goes into that connector directly back to the rear wiring harness and the brake lights did not come on. So the turn signal switch should not have been a factor at all.
I had 12v at the rear harness connector when I pressed the brake pedal, but they don't work. When I ran 12V directly from the battery they did work. I just don't get it. The turn signal switch was not connected at all.
Last edited by Gusteve; 07/02/11 04:57 PM.
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: Gusteve]
#1024431
07/02/11 08:04 PM
07/02/11 08:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,088 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,088
Niles , Ohio
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If you are using a meter put it on the bench.Get a tet light and see if it lights.The meter can lie to you on voltage.I had a 90s Mopar that wouldnt charge.Folled the flow chart with my meter.Spent 6 hours trying to figure it out.Ended up the wire from the computer tested over 12 volts on a leter.Put a tets light on it and it wouldnt light as it didnt carry enough amperage to turn on the alt or light the light.Spliced a piece of wire in and it charged perfect.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: therocks]
#1024432
07/02/11 10:32 PM
07/02/11 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167 Maryland
GO_Fish
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
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The brake lights run through the turn signal switch. You can still have turn signal when the brake circuit in the switch fails (IIRC, been a long time).
25 years or so ago, the I lost the brake lights on my '71 Duster. I narrowed the problem to the turn signal switch in the steering column. I can't remember how now, but I did rig a jumper at the turn signal switch, and temporarily fed the brake lights off the front turn signal part of the switch. The brake lights then functioned normally... Only problem was the front turn signals also functioned as brake lights every time I pressed the brake pedal. But I did then have good rear brake lights until I got the turn signal switch replaced.
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: GMP440]
#1024434
07/03/11 01:10 AM
07/03/11 01:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,848 Memphis
HemiRick
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,848
Memphis
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Do your dash lights work? if not check the fuse as dash and brake lights use same fuse.
Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: stumpy]
#1024437
07/03/11 01:19 PM
07/03/11 01:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
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I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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Flint, MI
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Quote:
E-brake switch has nothing to do with the brake light circuit. Let's not confuse him any more than he already is.
Thank you. Looking at the wiring diagram I didn't see anything that would make a difference in the e-Brake circuit.
I understand everyone saying that the problem is in the turn signal switch, but that just doesn't jive with what my diagnostics are telling me. If I disconnect the connector from the turn signal switch, and jumper the 12v that goes into that connector directly to the rear wiring harness I still don't have lights.
Today, I think I'll run a jumper right from the fuse box to the rear harness and see what happens. (Again with the turn signal harness disconnected). If that works, then my problem must be upstream between the turn signal switch and the fusebox. (Even though I'm seeing 12V on that circuit exactly where I should be....).
Lastly - any suggestions on where to buy a turn signal switch and harness? I saw one at a place called MegaPartsusa.com for $45, which is far better than the $145 that Year One wants, but I have never heard of that company before.
Thanks
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: Gusteve]
#1024438
07/03/11 03:31 PM
07/03/11 03:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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You have fire at 7 at the "in" (body half) of the TS switch connector w brake pressed (white in). W turn signal stalk in neutral w a good TS switch assy/harness then w the 2 halves connected you would have fire at 6 and 8 in the TS half then your halves are plugged together so then out to 3 and 6 in the connnector behind the kick panel & we're positive we're good from there (kick panel connector) downstream rearward because the flashers work. If I'm reading you right & your jumping directly & it works but not when the brake pedal sends fire there via the white wire just double check that your jumper has fire and that it is going in the connector & touching metal. EDIT meant to say that the connectors are plugged in/good contact as you can jump it & good but not when plugged in right?
Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/03/11 03:34 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 68 Charger - still no brakelights. I'm stumped.
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1024439
07/03/11 04:23 PM
07/03/11 04:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660 Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
You have fire at 7 at the "in" (body half) of the TS switch connector w brake pressed (white in). W turn signal stalk in neutral w a good TS switch assy/harness then w the 2 halves connected you would have fire at 6 and 8 in the TS half then your halves are plugged together so then out to 3 and 6 in the connnector behind the kick panel & we're positive we're good from there (kick panel connector) downstream rearward because the flashers work. If I'm reading you right & your jumping directly & it works but not when the brake pedal sends fire there via the white wire just double check that your jumper has fire and that it is going in the connector & touching metal. EDIT meant to say that the connectors are plugged in/good contact as you can jump it & good but not when plugged in right?
White wire at 7 has fire when brakes are pressed. 3 & 6 at rear harness have fire when brakes are pressed. (That's why I'm confused - if 3 & 6 have 12V+ the darn lights should work).
Even though 7 has 12V when brakes are pressed, jumpering 7 (white wire) directly to 3 or 6 does not light the lights. Jumpering directly from the battery to 3 or 6 does light them.
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