Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1002672
05/31/11 09:10 AM
05/31/11 09:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445 Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
daniel_depetro
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445
Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
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Quote:
'To' is an even more common word...
My use of 'too' is correct.
Dictionary.com 'too'
As I previously stated, I'm certainly no grammar Nazi. I just thought you'd not want to look like a dope in your future postings. My apologies for saying anything.
1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)
1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: daniel_depetro]
#1002674
05/31/11 09:59 AM
05/31/11 09:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
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OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Quote:
'To' is an even more common word...
My use of 'too' is correct.
Dictionary.com 'too'
As I previously stated, I'm certainly no grammar Nazi. I just thought you'd not want to look like a dope in your future postings. My apologies for saying anything.
Hey dont get all defensive now... I wasn't attacking you. Read some ov the posts around here... 'Dope' huh...??? Nice. Gotta love this place.
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: 344]
#1002675
05/31/11 10:06 AM
05/31/11 10:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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OP
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Quote:
Why not use exhaust "Y" pipe with 1 cat converter and 1 tailpipe?
No particular reason actually, i just thought duals would look less suspicious (just in case someone gets anal about things, its possible), and flow better so the engine works more efficiently for the test. Suppose i could make a 3-3 1/2" 'Y' into one big high flow cat and split it into dual tips out each side...
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: 70RT27N]
#1002682
05/31/11 03:36 PM
05/31/11 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 735 Spokane,WA
Genuinejed
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 735
Spokane,WA
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I have a buddy with a blow through, carbed, twin turbo 91 blazer that makes 600 lb#s at the wheel. He put a single cat on his truck and passed here in WA state. 1.2% & 220 ppm standards.
1968 Plymouth road runner
1968 Dodge Coronet 500
64 D200
Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: Genuinejed]
#1002683
05/31/11 03:47 PM
05/31/11 03:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481 Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Pale just likes annoying people with the OV thing. He has NOT supplied the info we need to help him more (loaded or unloaded testing, idle is a given, is it also tested at speed or RPM, what are the standards, what he's built that may not pass) and has disregarded the people that have explained that cats will not work if the engine has a lot of overlap and is rich. For example, if the test is unloaded idle only and the standards are pretty high and they do not measure and report O2 levels, a couple holes in the exhaust upstream from the sniffer could do it for free.
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: RodStRace]
#1002684
05/31/11 08:32 PM
05/31/11 08:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Quote:
Pale just likes annoying people with the OV thing.
He has NOT supplied the info we need to help him more (loaded or unloaded testing, idle is a given, is it also tested at speed or RPM, what are the standards, what he's built that may not pass) and has disregarded the people that have explained that cats will not work if the engine has a lot of overlap and is rich.
For example, if the test is unloaded idle only and the standards are pretty high and they do not measure and report O2 levels, a couple holes in the exhaust upstream from the sniffer could do it for free.
I was more just wondering if a cat could generally clean up an old engine enough to matter, but if its details you want, here's what i know...
The visual is for 76 and newer cars, not needed in my case (1972 and older). There is first a driving test, on a chassis dyno in gear at idle (i think?) or low speed. Then they bring it up to around 2500-3000rpm for a time, long enough to get a stable reading. Then its put in park and they do an idle test. Whole shebang takes about 2 minutes or so.
As for standards, the maximum allowable for a 1972 Charger 440 (haven't tested my 70 Challenger yet) are:
Driving
HC - 278ppm CO - 3% NOx - 3702ppm
Idle
HC - 873ppm CO - 4.09%
1970 car limits would be a bit higher i'd assume.
Also found out that the standards are actually the same across the board per year. That means that they base the limit on the worst polluter for that year, i'll assume a 426 hemi in 1970, 440 magnum in 72. So a Pinto with a 1.6L would have a huge margin while a big block wouldn't. This is bad for my 440 in the Charger, and not great for the 383 or 400 i'll have in the Challenger.
As for what i'm building, that hasn't been fully zero'd in on yet, but from anecdotal experience, my friends with 275ish (advertised) cams in small blocks need a dedicated tune to pass. Go to something like a 509 size cam and you're probably pooched. Most guys i know here with bigger cams have a LOT more money for screwing with this stuff, or driving only on permits, or moving their mailing address out ov the region, none ov which i can do. Whatever i build will likely be more aggressive than the above, but the MINIMUM would be in the 509 area. I've never had a big cam and dammit... i wanna play this time.
As for the rich running ruining the cats, the carb gets a tune before the test, and leaned out. The idle is also cranked up to around 1150rpm, as that is the limit they allow... and in itself just doing that makes a big difference.
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: 70RT27N]
#1002685
05/31/11 08:33 PM
05/31/11 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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OP
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Quote:
Do either of your cars qualify for collectors plates? If so, there is no need for air-care.
No collectors... not even close. Too bad, that insurance is damn cheap too.
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: Genuinejed]
#1002686
05/31/11 08:35 PM
05/31/11 08:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
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OP
Swears too much
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the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
I have a buddy with a blow through, carbed, twin turbo 91 blazer that makes 600 lb#s at the wheel. He put a single cat on his truck and passed here in WA state. 1.2% & 220 ppm standards.
Now that is a big statement. I always thought that boost just savaged emissions readings... How big's the cam in that sucker...???
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: stumpy]
#1002687
05/31/11 08:37 PM
05/31/11 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
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OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
But you have to admit that when you can't spell a simple two letter word it does have a tendency to bring your intellect into question.
Yes i do. But at least i do it on purpose.
Still you dont see me getting all bent when someone says 'dizzy' or 'Chally'...
ANYWAYS... back on topic!
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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...???
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1002689
05/31/11 10:11 PM
05/31/11 10:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481 Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Thanks, Pale. Now I know what you have to deal with. Driving - should be no biggie, if it's not too loaded causing the power circuit to dump. The NOx shows that anything over about 10 to one is going to be tight. At that RPM you should be "up on the cam". Even my own 340 with a 509 cam would pass those numbers (it was strictly research, I would never run that on the street! ) Idle - this is where you are going to have to balance. 4% is fairly reasonable at 1150 RPM, I've only had 2 cars that would start to lean misfire at that. Both were fairly built. BTW, I'm talking about doing the test, not owning the cars. I did thousands of the tests. However, the HC is going to cause a fit if you have a bunch of overlap. You mention different engines, but it's a percentage of the emissions, so a pinto with a big cam has at least as much of a hurdle as you in a 440. HCs are part of the reason they went away from the big motors. A bigger bore has more space to hide. Build a good quench, get a ring package up fairly close to the top of the piston, and use the bleed down lifters (hyd) or go with a roller with less duration. Dedicated tunes usually are a bit lean and the timing is backed off. TDC is not uncommon. Just don't drive it far that way. Also change the oil just before the test. It will change the CO during the test. If they do not inspect at all, pulling the PCV out of the valve cover (and then adjusting the carb) can also get a few whiskers toward your goal...
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