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Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1002672
05/31/11 09:10 AM
05/31/11 09:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445
Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
daniel_depetro Offline
pro stock
daniel_depetro  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445
Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
Quote:

'To' is an even more common word...



My use of 'too' is correct.

Dictionary.com 'too'

As I previously stated, I'm certainly no grammar Nazi. I just thought you'd not want to look like a dope in your future postings. My apologies for saying anything.


1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)

1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)

1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1002673
05/31/11 09:58 AM
05/31/11 09:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
Phila., Pa.
3
344 Offline
super gas
344  Offline
super gas
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
Phila., Pa.
Why not use exhaust "Y" pipe with 1 cat converter and 1 tailpipe?

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: daniel_depetro] #1002674
05/31/11 09:59 AM
05/31/11 09:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Quote:

'To' is an even more common word...



My use of 'too' is correct.

Dictionary.com 'too'

As I previously stated, I'm certainly no grammar Nazi. I just thought you'd not want to look like a dope in your future postings. My apologies for saying anything.




Hey dont get all defensive now... I wasn't attacking you. Read some ov the posts around here... 'Dope' huh...??? Nice. Gotta love this place.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: 344] #1002675
05/31/11 10:06 AM
05/31/11 10:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Why not use exhaust "Y" pipe with 1 cat converter and 1 tailpipe?




No particular reason actually, i just thought duals would look less suspicious (just in case someone gets anal about things, its possible), and flow better so the engine works more efficiently for the test. Suppose i could make a 3-3 1/2" 'Y' into one big high flow cat and split it into dual tips out each side...

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1002676
05/31/11 11:04 AM
05/31/11 11:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
Phila., Pa.
3
344 Offline
super gas
344  Offline
super gas
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
Phila., Pa.
Check local emissions for your year car if visual is required. If no visual required, better yet. Just my 2 cents, but you could use 2 inch pipe from "Y" outlet to 2 inch cat in/out and tailpipe just to pass sniff test. High flow cat also not required.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: 344] #1002677
05/31/11 11:37 AM
05/31/11 11:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,971
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
I Win
stumpy  Offline
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Posts: 32,971
Grand Prairie,Texas
"Hey dont get all defensive now... I wasn't attacking you. Read some ov the posts around here... 'Dope' huh...??? Nice. Gotta love this place."

I agree Dope is a bit strong. But you have to admit that when you can't spell a simple two letter word it does have a tendency to bring your intellect into question.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: stumpy] #1002678
05/31/11 01:12 PM
05/31/11 01:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
B
bonefish Offline
master
bonefish  Offline
master
B

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
i think its more ov a sight thing the F and the V actualy tuch eech othur.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: stumpy] #1002679
05/31/11 01:35 PM
05/31/11 01:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
D
DPelletier Offline
I Live Here
DPelletier  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:

By the way it's spelled OF not ov.







Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: DPelletier] #1002680
05/31/11 01:49 PM
05/31/11 01:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
nomore65BelvJim Offline
I Live Here
nomore65BelvJim  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun


...add an "L"...add an "E"...

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: nomore65BelvJim] #1002681
05/31/11 02:04 PM
05/31/11 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 396
BC
7
70RT27N Offline
enthusiast
70RT27N  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 396
BC

Do either of your cars qualify for collectors plates? If so, there is no need for air-care.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: 70RT27N] #1002682
05/31/11 03:36 PM
05/31/11 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 735
Spokane,WA
G
Genuinejed Offline
super stock
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Posts: 735
Spokane,WA
I have a buddy with a blow through, carbed, twin turbo 91 blazer that makes 600 lb#s at the wheel. He put a single cat on his truck and passed here in WA state. 1.2% & 220 ppm standards.


1968 Plymouth road runner 1968 Dodge Coronet 500 64 D200 Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.
Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Genuinejed] #1002683
05/31/11 03:47 PM
05/31/11 03:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
Pale just likes annoying people with the OV thing.

He has NOT supplied the info we need to help him more (loaded or unloaded testing, idle is a given, is it also tested at speed or RPM, what are the standards, what he's built that may not pass) and has disregarded the people that have explained that cats will not work if the engine has a lot of overlap and is rich.

For example, if the test is unloaded idle only and the standards are pretty high and they do not measure and report O2 levels, a couple holes in the exhaust upstream from the sniffer could do it for free.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: RodStRace] #1002684
05/31/11 08:32 PM
05/31/11 08:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
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the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Pale just likes annoying people with the OV thing.

He has NOT supplied the info we need to help him more (loaded or unloaded testing, idle is a given, is it also tested at speed or RPM, what are the standards, what he's built that may not pass) and has disregarded the people that have explained that cats will not work if the engine has a lot of overlap and is rich.

For example, if the test is unloaded idle only and the standards are pretty high and they do not measure and report O2 levels, a couple holes in the exhaust upstream from the sniffer could do it for free.




I was more just wondering if a cat could generally clean up an old engine enough to matter, but if its details you want, here's what i know...

The visual is for 76 and newer cars, not needed in my case (1972 and older). There is first a driving test, on a chassis dyno in gear at idle (i think?) or low speed. Then they bring it up to around 2500-3000rpm for a time, long enough to get a stable reading. Then its put in park and they do an idle test. Whole shebang takes about 2 minutes or so.

As for standards, the maximum allowable for a 1972 Charger 440 (haven't tested my 70 Challenger yet) are:

Driving

HC - 278ppm
CO - 3%
NOx - 3702ppm

Idle

HC - 873ppm
CO - 4.09%

1970 car limits would be a bit higher i'd assume.

Also found out that the standards are actually the same across the board per year. That means that they base the limit on the worst polluter for that year, i'll assume a 426 hemi in 1970, 440 magnum in 72. So a Pinto with a 1.6L would have a huge margin while a big block wouldn't. This is bad for my 440 in the Charger, and not great for the 383 or 400 i'll have in the Challenger.

As for what i'm building, that hasn't been fully zero'd in on yet, but from anecdotal experience, my friends with 275ish (advertised) cams in small blocks need a dedicated tune to pass. Go to something like a 509 size cam and you're probably pooched. Most guys i know here with bigger cams have a LOT more money for screwing with this stuff, or driving only on permits, or moving their mailing address out ov the region, none ov which i can do. Whatever i build will likely be more aggressive than the above, but the MINIMUM would be in the 509 area. I've never had a big cam and dammit... i wanna play this time.

As for the rich running ruining the cats, the carb gets a tune before the test, and leaned out. The idle is also cranked up to around 1150rpm, as that is the limit they allow... and in itself just doing that makes a big difference.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: 70RT27N] #1002685
05/31/11 08:33 PM
05/31/11 08:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:


Do either of your cars qualify for collectors plates? If so, there is no need for air-care.




No collectors... not even close. Too bad, that insurance is damn cheap too.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Genuinejed] #1002686
05/31/11 08:35 PM
05/31/11 08:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

I have a buddy with a blow through, carbed, twin turbo 91 blazer that makes 600 lb#s at the wheel. He put a single cat on his truck and passed here in WA state. 1.2% & 220 ppm standards.




Now that is a big statement. I always thought that boost just savaged emissions readings... How big's the cam in that sucker...???

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: stumpy] #1002687
05/31/11 08:37 PM
05/31/11 08:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

But you have to admit that when you can't spell a simple two letter word it does have a tendency to bring your intellect into question.




Yes i do. But at least i do it on purpose.

Still you dont see me getting all bent when someone says 'dizzy' or 'Chally'...

ANYWAYS... back on topic!

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: nomore65BelvJim] #1002688
05/31/11 08:38 PM
05/31/11 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:






Okay... that is just awesome.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1002689
05/31/11 10:11 PM
05/31/11 10:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
Thanks, Pale. Now I know what you have to deal with.
Driving - should be no biggie, if it's not too loaded causing the power circuit to dump.
The NOx shows that anything over about 10 to one is going to be tight. At that RPM you should be "up on the cam". Even my own 340 with a 509 cam would pass those numbers (it was strictly research, I would never run that on the street! )
Idle - this is where you are going to have to balance. 4% is fairly reasonable at 1150 RPM, I've only had 2 cars that would start to lean misfire at that. Both were fairly built. BTW, I'm talking about doing the test, not owning the cars. I did thousands of the tests. However, the HC is going to cause a fit if you have a bunch of overlap.
You mention different engines, but it's a percentage of the emissions, so a pinto with a big cam has at least as much of a hurdle as you in a 440.
HCs are part of the reason they went away from the big motors. A bigger bore has more space to hide. Build a good quench, get a ring package up fairly close to the top of the piston, and use the bleed down lifters (hyd) or go with a roller with less duration.
Dedicated tunes usually are a bit lean and the timing is backed off. TDC is not uncommon. Just don't drive it far that way. Also change the oil just before the test. It will change the CO during the test. If they do not inspect at all, pulling the PCV out of the valve cover (and then adjusting the carb) can also get a few whiskers toward your goal...

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: RodStRace] #1002690
05/31/11 10:36 PM
05/31/11 10:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
BTW. if they are measuring NOx, it's going to be a 4 gas analizer, meaning you can't poke holes upstream of the probe... sorry.

If you are dead set on cats, run an air pump too. Feed them air too so they can burn the HCs.
74 400s had 'em in California, so there are factory brackets and pulleys.

Re: Putting catalytic converters on old cars...??? [Re: RodStRace] #1002691
06/01/11 10:23 PM
06/01/11 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic Offline
master
Skeptic  Offline
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Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
That's a weird test procedure My before you throw money away on a cat system, get the car setup, do some tuning with a wideband THEN have someone run it on a 4/5gas. The biggest problem I see is the idle HC, even @ 1150. Big lumpy cams spew out lots of HC. The Nox test will probably require some retarded timing- this helps the hc to a point too. In CA cats will FAIL the visual on a car that didn't have them from the factory, as will an air pump. Here you have to go to a referee station and have them certify the install and make a new emission tag.

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