ignition/coil/ballast questions??
#100267
08/05/08 05:31 PM
08/05/08 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
Dakota_Don
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hi all, I searched the archives and came up with nothing, But i am sure this has been asked alot, if i use a chrome box or FBO box with a MSD blaster 2 coil, do i need a ballast? Msd said NO, and according to the wiring diagram the ECU module gets 12V in the ON position, but the coil gets 12v at start and a lower V on the run position. Now if I use a coil (MSD) that can run 12V continuous, can I bypass the ballast? The only wire I see that goes from the coil to the ECU is on the NEG side of the COIL(blk with yellow tracer), The pos side of the coil gets the keyed (start or run) voltage. .. does the ballast control the NEG side as well? please look the wiring diagram. http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/elec/3.htmlMoparts Tech Archive Elec Topics Awesome ECU wiring diagram Moparts Tech Archive Elec Topics Awesome ECU wiring diagram Moparts Tech Archive Elec Topics Awesome ECU wiring diagram
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: cataclysm80]
#100270
08/05/08 06:59 PM
08/05/08 06:59 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Nice diagram! I always wondered, What is that unused Green wire for?
Tav
If you find an original diagram, the OEM Mopar istallations used a dual (4 post) ballast
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
#100271
08/05/08 07:10 PM
08/05/08 07:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Would you post a link to the MSD page where you decided "MSD says no?" The way I read it, you DO need a ballast with stock type ignitons: http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_1_8200_8202_8223.htmA partial quote from that page: "Most late model vehicles with electronic ignitions do not require a ballast resistor, check your ignition and manufacturers specifications to determine if a ballast is required in your application" What that says to me is that GM HEI, for example doesn't use a ballast, but since OEM Mopars DO, then you should use a ballast. One thing you need to remember about the difference between an OEM ECU and an MSD, is that the MSD is a completely different breed of cat. Where your stock OEM type ECU merely replaces the points, and still switches the same circuit that the points used to (battery-key-ballaste-coil-switch to ground) the MSD box is COMPLETELY different. It supplies pulses of energy generated in the box---"discharge" is the word, the older systems were "capacitive" discharge, and worked sortof like a photo flash--a great big cap charged up and then was discharged into the coil, MSD uses an inductor I believe. The POINT is that an MSD box DOES NOT run DC (12V) through the coil, only a spark pulse.
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: Dakota_Don]
#100272
08/05/08 07:12 PM
08/05/08 07:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
dgc333
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2004
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Mass
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Quote:
hi all, I searched the archives and came up with nothing,
But i am sure this has been asked alot,
if i use a chrome box or FBO box with a MSD blaster 2 coil, do i need a ballast?
Msd said NO, and according to the wiring diagram the ECU module gets 12V in the ON position, but the coil gets 12v at start and a lower V on the run position. Now if I use a coil (MSD) that can run 12V continuous, can I bypass the ballast? The only wire I see that goes from the coil to the ECU is on the NEG side of the COIL(blk with yellow tracer), The pos side of the coil gets the keyed (start or run) voltage. ..
does the ballast control the NEG side as well? please look the wiring diagram.
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/elec/3.html
A Blaster 2 coil requires a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor when its not being used with a CD type ignition. Its right there at the top of the first page of the Blaster 2 installation instructions. If someone from MSD told you otherwise I am very sure you got bad.
A ballast resistor by definition is a resistor that varies its resistance with temperature. The hotter it gets the higher the resistance. The reason for the ballast being in the circuit is if the coil was designed to provide adequate output at high rpms when there is less time for the current flowing through the primaries to saturate the secondary windings it will over heat due to to much current flowing at lower rpms. This was a real issue with points where the key could be left on without the engine running and the points were closed. The ballast resistor will heat up at low rpms thus limiting the current through the coil protecting it from over heating.
If you measure the voltage on the + side of the coil at idle it will be in the 6-8 volt range. If you were to rev the engine up to 4000 rpm you will likely see 7-10 volts.
FWIW, FBO sells the MSD .8 ohm ballast resistor for use with there coil and ecu.
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
#100273
08/05/08 07:54 PM
08/05/08 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
Dakota_Don
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Alton, IL
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Quote:
Would you post a link to the MSD page where you decided "MSD says no?"
The way I read it, you DO need a ballast with stock type ignitons:
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_1_8200_8202_8223.htm
A partial quote from that page:
"Most late model vehicles with electronic ignitions do not require a ballast resistor, check your ignition and manufacturers specifications to determine if a ballast is required in your application"
What that says to me is that GM HEI, for example doesn't use a ballast, but since OEM Mopars DO, then you should use a ballast.
One thing you need to remember about the difference between an OEM ECU and an MSD, is that the MSD is a completely different breed of cat. Where your stock OEM type ECU merely replaces the points, and still switches the same circuit that the points used to (battery-key-ballaste-coil-switch to ground) the MSD box is COMPLETELY different. It supplies pulses of energy generated in the box---"discharge" is the word, the older systems were "capacitive" discharge, and worked sortof like a photo flash--a great big cap charged up and then was discharged into the coil, MSD uses an inductor I believe. The POINT is that an MSD box DOES NOT run DC (12V) through the coil, only a spark pulse.
no need to post a link cuz i called them, the original directions for the msd blaster 2 coil show a ballast with points only.. so i then called the tech line. I then asked the tech if i needed a ballast with electronic ign, i also told them my ignition had thier MSD blaster 2 coil and a performance ECU unit.. he then said very quickly NO you do not need a ballast with our coil for your set up.
then hung up the phone, so thats why i needed to ask the Mopar gurus..
maybe he thought i had a GM
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: Dakota_Don]
#100277
08/05/08 09:01 PM
08/05/08 09:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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aint it ceramic? is it a heat sink?use it unless you just dont like it or think its gonna lower your performace.maybe replace with a fuseable link. 
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: Dakota_Don]
#100278
08/05/08 09:31 PM
08/05/08 09:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Don at FBO just sent me this one. EDIT (the bottom one)
Last edited by RapidRobert; 08/06/08 08:17 AM.
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#100280
08/06/08 06:58 AM
08/06/08 06:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 105
Baltimore, MD
MadMax58
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Baltimore, MD
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Quote:
Don at FBO just sent me this one.
According to Jegs the P2444641 is to be used for race only.
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: MadMax58]
#100281
08/06/08 07:26 AM
08/06/08 07:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,767
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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Running without a ballast resistor may not hurt the MSD coil but what does it do to the transistor in your ECU? MSD could care less if you fry your NON MSD box. In fact they would prefer that you buy theirs.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: ignition/coil/ballast questions??
[Re: Dakota_Don]
#100283
08/06/08 11:42 AM
08/06/08 11:42 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
dgc333
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
Would you post a link to the MSD page where you decided "MSD says no?"
The way I read it, you DO need a ballast with stock type ignitons:
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_1_8200_8202_8223.htm
A partial quote from that page:
"Most late model vehicles with electronic ignitions do not require a ballast resistor, check your ignition and manufacturers specifications to determine if a ballast is required in your application"
What that says to me is that GM HEI, for example doesn't use a ballast, but since OEM Mopars DO, then you should use a ballast.
One thing you need to remember about the difference between an OEM ECU and an MSD, is that the MSD is a completely different breed of cat. Where your stock OEM type ECU merely replaces the points, and still switches the same circuit that the points used to (battery-key-ballaste-coil-switch to ground) the MSD box is COMPLETELY different. It supplies pulses of energy generated in the box---"discharge" is the word, the older systems were "capacitive" discharge, and worked sortof like a photo flash--a great big cap charged up and then was discharged into the coil, MSD uses an inductor I believe. The POINT is that an MSD box DOES NOT run DC (12V) through the coil, only a spark pulse.
no need to post a link cuz i called them, the original directions for the msd blaster 2 coil show a ballast with points only.. so i then called the tech line. I then asked the tech if i needed a ballast with electronic ign, i also told them my ignition had thier MSD blaster 2 coil and a performance ECU unit.. he then said very quickly NO you do not need a ballast with our coil for your set up.
then hung up the phone, so thats why i needed to ask the Mopar gurus..
maybe he thought i had a GM
First off the reference to late model igntions is just that. The mopar electronic igntion you are working with is a first generation electronic ignition and is certainly not late model.
Being that it is first generation all the module does is replace the mechnical switch (points) with an electronic switch. The perfromance modules that are sold by mopar performance and I am assuming since the packaging is the same by FBO don't alter the basic function, they just operate fast enough to support much higher rpms than a stock module. They will also be able to handle more current without over heating and failing. But the primary reason for a ballast resistor is to protect the coil.
The installation instructions on page 2 figure 2 is for stock points ignitions and the figure shows wiring going to "Points or Amplifier Trigger". Mopar folks may not be used to the term Amplifier Trigger but what they are talking about is an electronic igntion control box. The instructions also stat that the Ballast is required with a Mallory Unilte distributor which is a distributor with the electronic igntion control built in.
As far as MSD's tech support is concerned I have called them twice and it was very obvious the folks that answer the phone don't now much about the products that are supposed to support and I was given misleading info regarding a specific question and the answer was different on each call. I was also trying to help out another person on a forum that actually was given out right incorrect info. So if tech support says one thing and the installation instruction say something else, I will go with the instructions every time. In my 30+ years as an engineer its my experience that instructions are at least reviewed by the engineers that are reponsible for the product where as sales info is not and tech support is taught by folks that may be experts in one product but not in others.
You can run the Blaster 2 without a ballast resistor and it will quite likely last for quite awile. But you are over stressing it and statistically the failure rate will be higher than if run with a ballast resistor.
The other thing you have to remember is that in an inductive igntion system the voltage required to generate the spark is seldom anywhere near the level the coil can produce. In a stock or near stock engine that is in a good state of tune the voltage level will be on the order od 15-20,000 volts and where the coil can produce at 30k level or a 45k level it won't. The only time a perfromance coil will help you is in a highly modified engine where a higher voltage level is required to make a spark and at high rpms when the output of all coils will go down and the perfromance coil may still have the capacity to reliabily generate a spark.
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