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Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: MarkZ] #3231577
05/07/24 02:58 PM
05/07/24 02:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,896
Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline
master
hooziewhatsit  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,896
Oregon
True. The statement I was responding to was about the road taxes that "NOBODY driving an EV is paying". That statement is patently false. One could argue that the current amount is too low, too high, or not fair because it's a flat rate, but it can't be argued that it just doesn't exist.

Overall cost of ownership is an entirely different question, and also entirely muddy and dependent on individual circumstances.


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: MarkZ] #3231578
05/07/24 03:07 PM
05/07/24 03:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,465
Michigan
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oldjonny Offline
Don't argue with me.
oldjonny  Offline
Don't argue with me.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,465
Michigan
Originally Posted by MarkZ
Originally Posted by hooziewhatsit
Originally Posted by oldjonny
Any of you mathamajicians that think an EV is 'cheap' has to realize that once the government gets everyone in one, then they have full control. How do you envision they are going to collect road tax that currently NOBODY driving an EV is paying????? Think this thru folks.


Nope. No extra fees are collected on EVs to go towards roads. Nothing at all. work

https://money.com/states-ev-fees-200-dollars/

Or for a deeper dive: https://www.atlasevhub.com/data_story/ev-drivers-in-36-states-pay-a-surplus-of-fees-each-year/


I read through the second link there Hoozie, and the entire study is highly questionable because of this premise:

Quote

we also assumed a driver is charging only at Electrify America stations because of the charging company’s nationwide network; while most charging is done at home today, many potential new EV drivers will not have ready access to home charging because they park on the street, are renters, or otherwise do not have easy access to power where they park. As such, the illustration presented here does not reflect the experience for drivers who have ready access to home charging. This challenge is especially present for low-income households and those in disadvantaged communities.


The author is making assumptions based on future protentional customers, whom many of which are currently priced out of the market for BEV.

Off-peak to peak rates around here are about 13c/kwh to 24c/kwh. Common Electrify America rates are 48c/kwh. Double the peak heavy usage rate of in-home and the study used the most expensive charging option, then justified it using a potential future customer base that isn't representative of the current owners.

This isn't anywhere near accurate enough to be used to discuss current costs vs ICE.

Toss in the thousands of dollars worth of tax incentives the government gives and this entire line of reasoning goes right out the window.





Wait. You are applying logic. Logic has NO place with the EV folks. Its all butterflies and daisies.


Never, ever argue with an IDIOT. They will drag you to their level and then beat you with their years of experience
Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: hooziewhatsit] #3231584
05/07/24 04:19 PM
05/07/24 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,432
Michigan
MarkZ Offline
Worthy
MarkZ  Offline
Worthy

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,432
Michigan
Originally Posted by hooziewhatsit
True. The statement I was responding to was about the road taxes that "NOBODY driving an EV is paying". That statement is patently false. One could argue that the current amount is too low, too high, or not fair because it's a flat rate, but it can't be argued that it just doesn't exist.

Overall cost of ownership is an entirely different question, and also entirely muddy and dependent on individual circumstances.


A similar class vehicle to a Model 3 like an Equinox will pay about $250 in fuel tax for 10k traveled in Michigan. 10k is about average for most drivers. The additional registration fee per your first linked article lists Michigan as $140. It needs to be increased significantly, but yes, you're correct. In terms of road tax EVs do in fact pay into it in many states, but it's way under taxed and in 27 other states, they collect NO road tax from EVs. So, like most things, it depends.... lol


Last edited by MarkZ; 05/07/24 04:28 PM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: MarkZ] #3231885
05/09/24 11:01 AM
05/09/24 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,157
Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline OP
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline OP
Special needs idiot
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,157
Benton, IL.
15,000 miles a year is typically considered 'average'. And that figure is used for vehicle evaluations, too. More than that gets a deduction in value, less gets an addition. Again that's typically, because there are always exceptions.

www.kbb.com/car-advice/average-miles-driven-per-year

Another meaningful statistic in this is that the 'average' age of cars on the road today is in excess of 12 years. And growing. It is also estimated that 23% of those cars are at least 20 years old. Has anyone seen any evidence that EVs can be economically kept on the road for that length of time? I haven't. The most common estimated life expectancy of today's EV batteries is between 8 and 12 years depending on a number of factors. The most optimistic estimates put life spans at 10+ years. But they are all only estimates. I would be very interested in some research into the real world life expectancy of today's EVs given the cost of their batteries and the labor to replace them. That is, IF the bateries are even available by the time the vehicle needs the first one replaced, let alone the second.

www.dynamicmanufacturinginc.com/unv...ar-batteries-how-long-do-they-truly-last

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last


Master, again and still
Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: DaveRS23] #3231908
05/09/24 01:14 PM
05/09/24 01:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
I Live Here
SomeCarGuy  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
Replacing an ev battery is a hard thing to pin down. You could easily live with a [censored] battery if you drive ten miles a day to work. If you drive 50 it could get bothersome to have to make sure you get out and hook it up or have to worry about the range crapping out on the way back home. So you’ll definitely get ev evangelists telling you they “haven’t replaced the battery after 15 years” when that’s not a relevant take.

I expect to be able to leave on a moments notice for an unexpected 500 miles trip. You simply cannot make a trip like that in a ev without prior planning and/or an extended stay along the way. When my gas powered vehicles are taken from me forcibly, I will no longer be able to move about freely.


I want my fair share
Re: EV resale values are falling..........fast [Re: DaveRS23] #3231916
05/09/24 02:43 PM
05/09/24 02:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,445
So Cal
Sinitro Offline
master
Sinitro  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,445
So Cal
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
'The adoption of electric vehicles in the United States has hit a pothole.

While the overall percentage of EVs on the road continues to climb — sales reached a record of 7.6% of the U.S. vehicle market in 2023 — resale values are going in the opposite direction.

“Prices for used EVs have been falling in recent months, especially compared to what we saw just a year or so ago when not only were used EV prices high, but some vehicles were also selling for close to new prices or even more,” says KTLA 5 technology reporter Rich DeMuro.

In 2023, prices for the top 10 best-selling battery cars in the U.S. fell an average of 28%, according to data from CarGurus compiled by HSBC.

On the surface, this might seem like good news for those waiting for the right moment to purchase their first electric vehicle. Unfortunately, this sharp decline in resale value points to several problems inherent to EVs that can’t be overcome in the short term.
'

https://ktla.com/news/california/why-are-used-ev-prices-cratering-right-now-its-complicated

I must disagree. It's NOT complicated. They are too expensive, too complicated, too limited in range, have too few charging options, have no tolerance for cold weather, have too many unknowns as to longevity, and are just plain not ready for prime time for most of us.


The total movement to EV vehicles has hit the wall..
The government subsidies are running out and the real costs are now surfacing..
Tesla has announced major layoffs, Rivian equity value has decreased 90%. Ford reported a $1.2 billion loss due to EV vehicles and they lost $120K on each EV vehicle sold.
There is no argument that we need to clean the air and emissions, but to force this on a depressed national economy in a short time cycle is simply bad judgement...

Just my $0.02... wink

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