Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
#980096
04/25/11 05:58 AM
04/25/11 05:58 AM
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Hi guys and galls. I'm currently checking out an 400 -> 500ci halffilled engine with new bme alloy rods in it and seem to have a lot of side play. For an approx 800hp street strip engine with tge rods torqued down how much clearence would you consider either optimal and max? Measured cold of course...
All opinions appreciated! Thanks!
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: gregsdart]
#980099
04/25/11 12:32 PM
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Thanks so far guys. The minimum is not my concern, it's the maximum this time. Have to take a closer look with a correct feeler gauge but if seems to be more around .06
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dthemi]
#980101
04/27/11 05:35 AM
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Thanks guys! Time to close it all up and put it in the car this weekend.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dthemi]
#980103
04/27/11 08:09 PM
04/27/11 08:09 PM
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Quote:
.06 wont hurt a thing, .02-.03 would be better for the oil that gets flung, but no problem.
Can you explain this please?
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: LSP]
#980104
04/27/11 08:17 PM
04/27/11 08:17 PM
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dOrk !
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Quote:
Quote:
.06 wont hurt a thing, .02-.03 would be better for the oil that gets flung, but no problem.
Can you explain this please?
I think that you will wind-up with 30 with alum rods when they warm-up.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: LSP]
#980105
04/27/11 08:23 PM
04/27/11 08:23 PM
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emarine01
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Quote:
Quote:
.06 wont hurt a thing, .02-.03 would be better for the oil that gets flung, but no problem.
Can you explain this please?
I think the theory here is the larger the side clearance the more oil will sling off the crank adding to windage drag,
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: emarine01]
#980106
04/27/11 08:44 PM
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Quote:
I think the theory here is the larger the side clearance the more oil will sling off the crank adding to windage drag,
NOT a theory ....it beez a fact ! ....some of the PROS run as small as 007 with steel rods.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980107
04/27/11 08:56 PM
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emarine01
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the theory here is the larger the side clearance the more oil will sling off the crank adding to windage drag,
NOT a theory ....it beez a fact ! ....some of the PROS run as small as 007 with steel rods.
I know Doc... I was just covering my ass
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980108
04/29/11 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the theory here is the larger the side clearance the more oil will sling off the crank adding to windage drag,
NOT a theory ....it beez a fact ! ....some of the PROS run as small as 007 with steel rods.
The oil "slinging" from the rods is metered by rod bearing clearance, .010", .020", .040", or .060" rod side clearance won't change the oil flow one bit.
Who's the "PROS" that run .007" rod side clearance?
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980111
04/30/11 08:39 AM
04/30/11 08:39 AM
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This topic is never going to be laid-to-rest .....
Bearing and rod-side clearances ? .... ALL of this is a "leak" in the chain. For someone to say that there is no diff in this RSC "leak" between 10 and 60 ....... is uNsane !
WHO was talking about 007 ? .... WJ. And IIRC ...from that article ... he ran a steel rod motor at 11 all the time.
Rod vertical bearing clearance is what meters oil flow, not the side clearance... not today, not tomorrow, not ever.
Don't believe everything you read, WJ does not have any steel rod motors.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980113
04/30/11 01:21 PM
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gregsdart
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Its pretty simple, really. There will be some restriction if you run them tight. But guys run them with far more than what will provide any restriction what so ever. If you have a .003 bearing clearance, then .003 extra(or slightly more) side clearance will give you as much room for the oil to escape as a larger clearance will. With folks running them very loose as with stock width BBC rods on stock width mopar journals, it must be apparent that the increase in oil flow isn't enough for most of us to worry about. It probably will show up on a dyno, but I wouldn't want to spend the time or money figuring out how close i could run them before disaster strikes. It would probably come from bind between rods, not an oiling issue.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dthemi]
#980115
04/30/11 02:28 PM
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Al_Alguire
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Large rod side clearance is not gonna hurt anything other than as pointed out windage and oil that ends up in suspension. As DT pointed out .060" aint gonna hurt nothing othen and having more oil in suspension in the crankcase.
But hey I am not a Barton what do I know...
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: LSP]
#980116
04/30/11 04:57 PM
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CompWedgeEngines
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Quote:
Quote:
This topic is never going to be laid-to-rest .....
Bearing and rod-side clearances ? .... ALL of this is a "leak" in the chain. For someone to say that there is no diff in this RSC "leak" between 10 and 60 ....... is uNsane !
WHO was talking about 007 ? .... WJ. And IIRC ...from that article ... he ran a steel rod motor at 11 all the time.
I am 100% in agreement with this. It may get THROWN easier out of a larger clearance, but NO MORE OIL than the vertical bearing clearance allows will come out if you have .030 or 3/4 of a mile of RSC. The contol of oil flow at the rod IS the vertical bearing clearance. If we have a leak that is .035 GPM, and we are running it into a bucket with a 1/2" pipe, THEN take thew SAME .035 GPM " leak", and rdrain it in a 3/4" pipe, are we leaking MORE oil? No. Its still .035 GPM. Its just running thru a bigger pipe,that will not matter UNLESS we have blockage in the pipe and so forth. If you have a vertical bearing clearance of .0032, then THATS what you will get for oil. Will it fly OUT of the offending .060 side clearance faster than the .030 side clearance? Maybe, but its STILL whatever oil is passing thru the .0035 vertical clearance.
Rod vertical bearing clearance is what meters oil flow, not the side clearance... not today, not tomorrow, not ever.
Don't believe everything you read, WJ does not have any steel rod motors.
RIP Monte Smith
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WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980117
05/01/11 07:14 AM
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I wish that someone like Barton, Hughes or Koffel would come-on this topic and put this to REST.
But to say that RSC has NOTHING to do with oil-flow is just flat-out wrong. Again ...it is just another "leak" in the oil-supply chain.
No disrepect intended to any of your heros, but we did some experimentation in regards to bottom end clearances at a place I used to work at, and didn't see anything like you are claiming. Share your testing results, and I'll share mine.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#980118
05/01/11 04:01 PM
05/01/11 04:01 PM
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dOrk !
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Quote:
Large rod side clearance is not gonna hurt anything other than as pointed out windage and oil that ends up in suspension.
Well Big Al ... that Xtra windage and oil-in-suspension costs power.
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: LSP]
#980119
05/01/11 04:07 PM
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dOrk !
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Quote:
No disrepect intended to any of your heros, but we did some experimentation in regards to bottom end clearances at a place I used to work at, and didn't see anything like you are claiming. Share your testing results, and I'll share mine.
I have no testing results ...so does that mean that you will not "share" yours ?
But if RSC is of no importance ....WHY does any Mopar service manual OR any type of HP build magazine/book I have ever seen calls for a max of 19 or so ?
DOES anyone have a AndyF Mopar book ? ... what does HE SAY about this ?
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: dOrk !]
#980120
05/01/11 09:53 PM
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358 endurance race motor, switched from .012" to over .100" rod side clearance. Same block, same crank, same pistons, same bearings, same oil system, same oil pump, same oil, same oil temp = same oil flow & same oil pressure.
Your manuals and magazines say more oil is coming from between the rods with over .100" rod side clearance, why didn't oil gpm go up and pressure go down when these rods were put in after the .012" side clearance rods?
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Re: Side clearence alloy rods, how much?
[Re: LSP]
#980121
05/01/11 10:40 PM
05/01/11 10:40 PM
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dannysbee
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The only way rod side clearance is going to effect your oil pressure or volume is if it is less than your bearing clearance.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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