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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965291
04/03/11 07:06 PM
04/03/11 07:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Lincoln Nebraska
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set the timing marks on ~30BTDC #1 compression and take off the cap and hand turn the crank w a breaker bar until the rotor is near/under #1 cap terminal (mark the outside of the dist for that place) and the reluctor blade is even w the magnet & JUST starts to move away from it & that's when it fires and see what the timing marks are at. Want ~10-15 initial. Also what Nitrousn said may b vac leak. We can pull the pass valve cover & check "rockover" on #6 & at that point the timing marks will b way off from TDC if it's off a tooth but the easy stuff 1st & not sure the best way to check for a vac leak. Holler back when you find something out
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: NITROUSN]
#965292
04/03/11 07:11 PM
04/03/11 07:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 559
Scottsdale, AZ
kenz
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Quote:
If you are sure your timing marks are right ten over advancing the base timing is just putting a bandaid on the problem. Sounds like a vacuum leak.
I'm pretty sure the timing marks are correct. We checked TDC when we degreed the cam. The cam was 2 degrees off so we installed a 2 degree offset key but now I'm wondering if we installed it backwards.
The vaccuum is steady at 19" at 30 degrees initial and 15" at 17 degrees initial, but it idles a bit rough at the lower setting and dies when put into gear.
I'll check for a leak just in case. Thanks for the suggestion.
ken
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965293
04/03/11 07:14 PM
04/03/11 07:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Lincoln Nebraska
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2 deg retarded would not skew it that much
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965294
04/03/11 07:43 PM
04/03/11 07:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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The spark timing is referenced off the crank. The distibuter doesnt care where the cams at, 2/4/6/8* advanced or retarded. A good example is pull the distributer out and spin its gear around anywhere you want and stick it back in. The only thing you will change is the position on the cap of the new # 1 cylinder. Of course you will now need to fine tune the timing advance in reference to the crank. Now, a cam being retarded will have a later IV close so it may want some more initial timing advance. But not 30* IMO Its something else  thats requiring that much advance to run smoothly. Are you using a adjustible timing light? Wire order correct,? ETC
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965296
04/03/11 09:15 PM
04/03/11 09:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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(Do) holler when you find it!
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: RapidRobert]
#965298
04/03/11 09:41 PM
04/03/11 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 559
Scottsdale, AZ
kenz
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Quote:
set the timing marks on ~30BTDC #1 compression and take off the cap and hand turn the crank w a breaker bar until the rotor is near/under #1 cap terminal (mark the outside of the dist for that place) and the reluctor blade is even w the magnet & JUST starts to move away from it & that's when it fires and see what the timing marks are at. Want ~10-15 initial. Also what Nitrousn said may b vac leak. We can pull the pass valve cover & check "rockover" on #6 & at that point the timing marks will b way off from TDC if it's off a tooth but the easy stuff 1st & not sure the best way to check for a vac leak. Holler back when you find something out
RapidRobert,
I think we did this right. We set the initial at 30 degree while the car was running. The we shut it off and turned the crank by hand until the timing mark was at 10 degrees. We popped the cap and the rotor is pointing about a quarter of the way past #1 toward #8 (see pic. black line indicates where #1 terminal is) and the tab on the reluctor blade is quite a bit past the magnet tip.
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965300
04/03/11 11:54 PM
04/03/11 11:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Good pics, I wish I could get my $150 camera to do that good. From what I see you could rotate the housing clockwise a bit till the black mark is under/near under the rotor blade which'll move the magnet closer to the reluctor tooth & w it dead even & just starting to move away it will fire at that point which is 10BTDC that the dampener marks are at so the dist phasing is OK but it will not run timed at 10 b 4  . That only leaves carb/vac leak or WAY retarded on the cam. How about this, take out the plugs & do a compression test on the most convenient hole (just 1) & see if you get anywhere normal psi & take off the pass valve cover and (keep plugs out for easier turning) turn it till both rocker arms on #6 are open the same amt and when a helper moves the crank back & forth a hair w a breaker bar both rockers move. this exact point of same height/moving is "rockover" on #6 and #1 is firing on TDC compression and at that exact point the dampener slit must b within a degree or 2 of TDC & if not the cam is off & if good there then What Nitrousn said: carb/vac leak. And if you get rockover and at that point the marks are retarded (after TDC) then yes the cam is retarded because (in effect) the crank has moved forward but the cam has stayed still
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965301
04/04/11 12:04 AM
04/04/11 12:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
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Management Trainee
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Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Is that an MP distributor? Put a timing light on the car & watch the timing marks as someone puts the car into gear..... There should be no timing advance in at idle so when dropping the car into gear causes a slight reduction of idle RPM the timing shouldn't move... Often with the MP distributors the springs are so light at idle 10+ degrees are brought in.. When the car is dropped in gear the rpm's drop so timing falls out.. When the timing falls out the idle rpm's will drop further... When that happens naturally the timing falls out even further, probably back to true base timing but at that point the rpm's have fallen so much there's a good chance the engine is gonna die..
"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: buildanother]
#965303
04/04/11 03:53 PM
04/04/11 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 559
Scottsdale, AZ
kenz
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Quote:
Nitrousn is right about that possible vac leak, and maybe a 318 with a little cam that really isn't very little, may need a looser torque conv. 
The only vaccuum line hooked up goes to the hand held gauge. We sprayed carb cleaner all around the carb and intake and it caused no change in idle. Any better way to check?
The cam's spec are pretty mild, 204 int./214 exh. duration and 0.420 int./0.442 exh lift. Lobe separation is 112.
Thanks,
ken
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#965304
04/05/11 11:04 AM
04/05/11 11:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 559
Scottsdale, AZ
kenz
OP
mopar
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OP
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Scottsdale, AZ
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Quote:
Is that an MP distributor? Put a timing light on the car & watch the timing marks as someone puts the car into gear..... There should be no timing advance in at idle so when dropping the car into gear causes a slight reduction of idle RPM the timing shouldn't move... Often with the MP distributors the springs are so light at idle 10+ degrees are brought in.. When the car is dropped in gear the rpm's drop so timing falls out.. When the timing falls out the idle rpm's will drop further... When that happens naturally the timing falls out even further, probably back to true base timing but at that point the rpm's have fallen so much there's a good chance the engine is gonna die..
Got a chance to check this last night. Timing mark stays in place both in and out of gear. Idle decreases about 100 rpm when put into gear.
Will try RapidRobert's suggestion next.
Thanks again to all for the help.
Ken
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965306
04/10/11 07:07 PM
04/10/11 07:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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"Rockover" is diff from what you did. Might re read that/check it & time the dist at 10 BTDC #1 & holler back
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Cam timing vs distributor timing
[Re: kenz]
#965308
04/15/11 07:07 PM
04/15/11 07:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Been wondering what you found. Alright, cam is degreed/TDC mark correct. Were they tin or composite gaskets? I'd button it up w new gaskets w sealer/mockup the dist at 10/start it/time it & see what develops
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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