Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
#941501
03/02/11 07:50 PM
03/02/11 07:50 PM
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Posts: 1,499 Slidell, LA
Plum440
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If I un-bolt the tranny mount can I move a 4-speed off the bellhousing about 1/4"? Is there enough slack? I have a leak where the reverse gear cluster shaft enters the housing . My thought is that I can back it off enough to slide in a piece of gasket paper and silicone. The leak is coming from this area as there is no fluid around the shaft that goes into the bellhousing. Thanks
Last edited by Mopar_Beach; 03/02/11 07:51 PM.
70 Challenger, 440, 4-speed, pLuM cRaZy 71 VW Super Beetle Convertible, Lemon Yellow A couple of Jeeps…
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Stanton]
#941503
03/03/11 12:50 AM
03/03/11 12:50 AM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Well one of us doesn't know what you're talking about!
The reverse gear shaft only goes in from the back of the case and doesn't go through to the front. The back of the case is sealed to the tailstock with a gasket.
The "cluster" shaft does go through to the front but is a press-fit in iron cases so that should not be leaking either. On the other hand if its an aluminum case then that could very well be the source of your leak.
Anyhow, to move the trans back 1/" is possible. Get a couple longer bolts, take out one bolt at a time and put in the longer ones with the heads 1/4" protruding then slide the trans back. Support the tailstock so you don't f*** up either the crank bushing or the clutch disk if you happen to slide it back too far.
Don't sell yourself short , it appears you know exactly what he is talking about since you answered his question ....
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Stanton]
#941504
03/03/11 10:38 AM
03/03/11 10:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 806 Belle Mead, NJ
65Frank
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Quote:
Well one of us doesn't know what you're talking about!
The reverse gear shaft only goes in from the back of the case and doesn't go through to the front. The back of the case is sealed to the tailstock with a gasket.
The "cluster" shaft does go through to the front but is a press-fit in iron cases so that should not be leaking either. On the other hand if its an aluminum case then that could very well be the source of your leak.
Anyhow, to move the trans back 1/" is possible. Get a couple longer bolts, take out one bolt at a time and put in the longer ones with the heads 1/4" protruding then slide the trans back. Support the tailstock so you don't f*** up either the crank bushing or the clutch disk if you happen to slide it back too far.
But if that is the source of the leak (and not the IBR gasket), I don't see how you can fix it without removing the transmission. And if its leaking badly enough from there, it could be an indication that countershaft is enlarging the hole, which will lead to failure of the trans eventually.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Plum440]
#941505
03/03/11 10:45 AM
03/03/11 10:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
If I un-bolt the tranny mount can I move a 4-speed off the bellhousing about 1/4"? Is there enough slack?
Yes. If you unbolt the transmission from the cross member, you can then unbolt the transmission from the bell housing and you will have enough slack to slide it back 1/4".
(Just answer the question, boys)
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: 65Frank]
#941506
03/03/11 10:51 AM
03/03/11 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,499 Slidell, LA
Plum440
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Thanks guys... The trans is cast iron by the way (not rebuilt but from a low mileage car). It has been sitting for a very ling time since the car has been a 4 year project. It is nearing completion (this year) and would like nothing leaking. It is not a streaming leak but rather a drip that becomes a small puddle after 4 months. I did take it apart and replace all gaskets/seals and have a trans specialist look at all the gears. It works and shifts just fine (reverse and 1st gear in and out the garage). Could it be possible that once everything heats up the "gap" between the housing and shaft might close enough to stop the leak?? It might not be worth trying to fix since it sounds like a I'd be risking damage to other components... Steve
70 Challenger, 440, 4-speed, pLuM cRaZy 71 VW Super Beetle Convertible, Lemon Yellow A couple of Jeeps…
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Commando1]
#941507
03/03/11 11:06 AM
03/03/11 11:06 AM
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Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
(Just answer the question, boys)
That's not how moparts works , instead you get told what you should do and how much of a moron or idiot you are for not thinking the same way as the derogatory responder.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Plum440]
#941509
03/03/11 11:16 AM
03/03/11 11:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,285 Ohio
64dodge572
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Quote:
If I un-bolt the tranny mount can I move a 4-speed off the bellhousing about 1/4"? Is there enough slack?
I have a leak where the reverse gear cluster shaft enters the housing . My thought is that I can back it off enough to slide in a piece of gasket paper and silicone. The leak is coming from this area as there is no fluid around the shaft that goes into the bellhousing.
Thanks
That sounds easy enough, but the face of the bell is not all flat unless you have a lakewood or quicktime bell. So sliding a piece of gasket material in there likely wouldn't do anything except cause the trans/bell to be out of parallel. Pull it out and make sure the oil isn't coming from the brg retainer. The countershaft pin needs to be sealed with silicone. They tend to weap if not sealed. Dan
Brewers Performance Inc. 4-speed transmission and parts specialists PH 937-947-4416 or 937-698-4259 FAX 937-947-4419 www.brewersperformance.com
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: JohnRR]
#941510
03/03/11 12:39 PM
03/03/11 12:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,499 Slidell, LA
Plum440
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks guys...
The trans is cast iron by the way (not rebuilt but from a low mileage car). It has been sitting for a very ling time since the car has been a 4 year project. It is nearing completion (this year) and would like nothing leaking. It is not a streaming leak but rather a drip that becomes a small puddle after 4 months.
I did take it apart and replace all gaskets/seals and have a trans specialist look at all the gears. It works and shifts just fine (reverse and 1st gear in and out the garage).
Could it be possible that once everything heats up the "gap" between the housing and shaft might close enough to stop the leak??
It might not be worth trying to fix since it sounds like a I'd be risking damage to other components...
Steve
the shaft you are talking about is a light press fit meaning the of the shaft is BIGGER than the ID of the hole, it shouldn't be able to leak by design.
What oil are you using and did you put the same cluster gear pin back in the trans when it was put back together. I had the same leak point you think you have but I created it by using the cluster gear pin from an OD trans , it's a little shorter and it's not a press fit , I didn't know that at the time that I did it and the comapny that sold me the shaft didn't ask the trans type when I was ordering the rebuild parts .
I don't recall the weight but it's Penzoil Synchromesh.
I didn't have the trans completely apart. I only removed the tailshaft from the housing w/ the gears attached. So the cluster gear pin should be the same that it left the factory with (unless the trans was rebuilt sometime in it's life).
Thanks!
70 Challenger, 440, 4-speed, pLuM cRaZy 71 VW Super Beetle Convertible, Lemon Yellow A couple of Jeeps…
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Plum440]
#941512
03/03/11 03:00 PM
03/03/11 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If I un-bolt the tranny mount can I move a 4-speed off the bellhousing about 1/4"? Is there enough slack?
I have a leak where the reverse gear cluster shaft enters the housing . My thought is that I can back it off enough to slide in a piece of gasket paper and silicone. The leak is coming from this area as there is no fluid around the shaft that goes into the bellhousing.
Thanks
That sounds easy enough, but the face of the bell is not all flat unless you have a lakewood or quicktime bell. So sliding a piece of gasket material in there likely wouldn't do anything except cause the trans/bell to be out of parallel. Pull it out and make sure the oil isn't coming from the brg retainer. The countershaft pin needs to be sealed with silicone. They tend to weap if not sealed. Dan
Instead of the gasket maybe just a bit of silicone applied via paint scraper? A dab should be enough to fill the small gap and seal it.
I hate to put a band-aid on a problem but if that would take care of the leak maybe that's all it really needs.
Thanks for all the help guys!!!
You will have to clean it of oil first, which means drain the trans, the silcone is not going to seal if what you are applying it to is covered with oil.
So you say the trans may have been rebuilt by a previous owner , when you get it back look to see that the cluster gear pin is pretty much flush with the end of the case , if it is an 1/8 or so in then it's an OD shaft. How do you know this is the leak ? when you took off the bearing retainer did you change the internal seal ? Was the seal surface on the input shaft good ?
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: JohnRR]
#941513
03/03/11 03:43 PM
03/03/11 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,499 Slidell, LA
Plum440
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If I un-bolt the tranny mount can I move a 4-speed off the bellhousing about 1/4"? Is there enough slack?
I have a leak where the reverse gear cluster shaft enters the housing . My thought is that I can back it off enough to slide in a piece of gasket paper and silicone. The leak is coming from this area as there is no fluid around the shaft that goes into the bellhousing.
Thanks
That sounds easy enough, but the face of the bell is not all flat unless you have a lakewood or quicktime bell. So sliding a piece of gasket material in there likely wouldn't do anything except cause the trans/bell to be out of parallel. Pull it out and make sure the oil isn't coming from the brg retainer. The countershaft pin needs to be sealed with silicone. They tend to weap if not sealed. Dan
Instead of the gasket maybe just a bit of silicone applied via paint scraper? A dab should be enough to fill the small gap and seal it.
I hate to put a band-aid on a problem but if that would take care of the leak maybe that's all it really needs.
Thanks for all the help guys!!!
You will have to clean it of oil first, which means drain the trans, the silcone is not going to seal if what you are applying it to is covered with oil.
So you say the trans may have been rebuilt by a previous owner , when you get it back look to see that the cluster gear pin is pretty much flush with the end of the case , if it is an 1/8 or so in then it's an OD shaft. How do you know this is the leak ? when you took off the bearing retainer did you change the internal seal ? Was the seal surface on the input shaft good ?
I was planning on draining it completely and spraying the area with brake cleaner to prep it. The pin is completely flush with the case so I don't believe this to be an OD pin. With the bellhousing inspection cover off you can see the entire area around the bearing retainer is clean and yes, the internal seal was replaced and all surfaces looked fantastic. The drip is isolated to the seam where the tranny meets the bellhousing. I figured this has to be the only reason I'm seeing this leak if everything around the bearing retainer is dry.
Thanks John
70 Challenger, 440, 4-speed, pLuM cRaZy 71 VW Super Beetle Convertible, Lemon Yellow A couple of Jeeps…
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: JohnRR]
#941514
03/03/11 04:26 PM
03/03/11 04:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
Quote:
(Just answer the question, boys)
That's not how moparts works , instead you get told what you should do and how much of a moron or idiot you are for not thinking the same way as the derogatory responder.
PM sent to prevent thread from going OFF TOPIC.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Commando1]
#941515
03/03/11 05:01 PM
03/03/11 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
(Just answer the question, boys)
That's not how moparts works , instead you get told what you should do and how much of a moron or idiot you are for not thinking the same way as the derogatory responder.
PM sent to prevent thread from going OFF TOPIC.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Plum440]
#941516
03/03/11 05:52 PM
03/03/11 05:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,866 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
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Quote:
when you took off the bearing retainer did you change the internal seal ? Was the seal surface on the input shaft good ?
Holy crap, if it hasn't been used in 3 years and its leaking from the input shaft you have WAY too much fluid in it. It would be pouring out the tail end too !!!
And as for that cluster shaft being "thinner" in the OD case, I "could" be wrong but I seriously doubt it. Yes, it is shorter than an iron case shaft however from a manufacturing standpoint it would make no sense to add a machining step to make the shaft thinner when all they had to do was make the hole in the case bigger. Can Passon's or Brewers shed some light on this?
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Stanton]
#941517
03/03/11 05:59 PM
03/03/11 05:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
when you took off the bearing retainer did you change the internal seal ? Was the seal surface on the input shaft good ?
Holy crap, if it hasn't been used in 3 tears and its leaking from the input shaft, you have WAY too much fluid in it. It would be pouring out the tail end !!!
And as for that cluster shaft being "thinner" in the OD case, I "could" be wrong but I seriously doubt it. Yes, it is shorter than an iron case shaft however from a manufacturing standpoint it would make no sense to add a machining step to make the shaft thinner when all they had to do was make the hole in the case bigger. Can Passon's or Brewers shed some light on this?
Of course you are NEVER wrong ... ...
It doesn't have a step, and no one said it did, it's just not as tight as it is in the OD case, the hole in the case is more than likely bigger in the OD case than the regular 4 speed case, and an OD shaft is shorter because there is a soft plug on the bell end of the trans to KEEP IT FROM LEAKING because it's not a press fit.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: JohnRR]
#941519
03/03/11 07:10 PM
03/03/11 07:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
(Just answer the question, boys)
That's not how moparts works , instead you get told what you should do and how much of a moron or idiot you are for not thinking the same way as the derogatory responder.
PM sent to prevent thread from going OFF TOPIC.
John kissed it and made it feel all better.
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Re: Moving a 4-speed off a bellhousing 1/4" to fix a leak?
[Re: Commando1]
#941520
03/03/11 08:38 PM
03/03/11 08:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,866 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
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Posts: 8,866
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Quote:
Of course you are NEVER wrong ... ...
Thank you. Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken.
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