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Post deleted by moparts #919638 02/02/11 02:14 PM 02/02/11 02:14 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919639 02/02/11 02:17 PM 02/02/11 02:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,154 bethlehem pa M mikemee1331 master
mikemee1331 master M Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,154 bethlehem pa	no difference in the block. there is an excellent article about the myths around 440 block on the 440source.com web site.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919640 02/02/11 02:18 PM 02/02/11 02:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis HemiRick master
HemiRick master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis	That MH motor will work fine in a car no significant differences. Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451

Post deleted by moparts [Re: HemiRick] #919641 02/02/11 02:31 PM 02/02/11 02:31 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919642 02/02/11 02:43 PM 02/02/11 02:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,323 La Grange, Ky 70rrclone pro stock
70rrclone pro stock Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,323 La Grange, Ky	i just finished installing a 77 440/727 out of a 33ft titan mh in my 70 satellite. all the i had to do for the engine was change the motor mounts, oil pan and manifolds. for the trans i swapped output shaft and the tail housing. got the right driveshaft from Tony's . i have been driving it the last few days and have had no issues. i didnt build it though it was very clean and only had 50K on it.

Post deleted by moparts [Re: 70rrclone] #919643 02/02/11 03:22 PM 02/02/11 03:22 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919644 02/02/11 03:42 PM 02/02/11 03:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,323 La Grange, Ky 70rrclone pro stock
70rrclone pro stock Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,323 La Grange, Ky	mine being a 77 has 452 heads that use a tapered seat spark plug and i am told they have diffrent/extra cooling passages in the head im not sure what they used in 70 though. the 727 that came out of the mh had a very short talshaft and an e brake mounted to it. you car trans will should work fine just make sure you have the right converter for the eng (int/ext balance). Shane

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919645 02/02/11 03:55 PM 02/02/11 03:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,519 Lansing, MI 70gtx440dana master
70gtx440dana master Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,519 Lansing, MI	Quote: This one has 70K on it. I have a few 402 pans and the 70 HP manifolds and car mounts. Glad to hear that it will work. I assume the trans has a different spline on the output? I have the original trans from the car so I may use it. I also assume since its a 70 model it would have 906 heads? Or did they use something else on truck/motor homes? The 70 440 HP car motor did not use the 402 pan....it used a 6 quart pan & pick-up that was new for 70....the 402 will work but not correct if you will be trying to simulate factory correct for 70 440 HP 70 Road Runner 383-4 4 speed FJ5 & black guts 70 Charger R/T 440-4 4 speed FJ5 & white guts

Post deleted by moparts [Re: 70gtx440dana] #919646 02/02/11 04:15 PM 02/02/11 04:15 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919647 02/02/11 04:48 PM 02/02/11 04:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana F Fury Fan master
Fury Fan master F Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana	If you're focusing on teh correct oil pan because you want this engine 'correct' as an HP, just keep in mind that 70-71 440 HPs have heavier 6-pak rods and are externally balanced, so you'd need to change all that, too. Just use a pan in good condition that will fit.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919648 02/02/11 04:53 PM 02/02/11 04:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,519 Lansing, MI 70gtx440dana master
70gtx440dana master Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,519 Lansing, MI	Quote: I appreciate the info. What pan number did the 70 use? I will need to hunt one down. I just built a 70 383 for my Road Runner and used the 402. Is it correct? If not, did it use the 440 6 quart also? I think Mopar Performance sells a 6 quart and pickup? Would it work on the 440? The 402 pan was still correct for 70 383. Some had the # stamped in the bottom and some did not. I have never seen a 70 440 6 quart pan with the # stamped in it. The 70 parts book calls out part #2951564 for the pan. 70 Road Runner 383-4 4 speed FJ5 & black guts 70 Charger R/T 440-4 4 speed FJ5 & white guts

Post deleted by moparts [Re: 70gtx440dana] #919649 02/02/11 05:08 PM 02/02/11 05:08 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919650 02/02/11 07:07 PM 02/02/11 07:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana F Fury Fan master
Fury Fan master F Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana	Quote: I am not going to focus on correct internals. I do want it externally correct as possible. I just want to freshen it up with existing internals. Since I am doing this I will most likely use a 727 that is currently behind a 69 383. Can I use the stock converter that is on this trans. or do I need a 70 style?? I need one more schooling on the internal/external balance issue. 70 is when they changed it correct? I am just trying to avoid future problems with vibrations. Could I simply use the converter from the trans. that is currently on the 440? Or use the complete trans if it has the long tail shaft? I don't have enough experience on pans so I better got the 6 quart and tube from Ma Mopar. I assume it will look fairly correct? Yes, 70-71 440 HP and 6-pk got internally balanced due to teh heavy rods. Assuming it's not been cobbled over teh years, a motorhome trans will have an external parking brake and will be a short-tail. No good for car use. If this 70 engine is internally-balanced any 67-newer 'internal-balanced' 727 converter will work. Sounds like either teh MH or the 69 converter should be OK. Whether it will give a desirable stall speed is another matter.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor [Re: Fury Fan] #919651 02/02/11 07:21 PM 02/02/11 07:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: I am not going to focus on correct internals. I do want it externally correct as possible. I just want to freshen it up with existing internals. Since I am doing this I will most likely use a 727 that is currently behind a 69 383. Can I use the stock converter that is on this trans. or do I need a 70 style?? I need one more schooling on the internal/external balance issue. 70 is when they changed it correct? I am just trying to avoid future problems with vibrations. Could I simply use the converter from the trans. that is currently on the 440? Or use the complete trans if it has the long tail shaft? I don't have enough experience on pans so I better got the 6 quart and tube from Ma Mopar. I assume it will look fairly correct? Yes, 70-71 440 HP and 6-pk got EXTERNALLY balanced due to the heavy rods. Assuming it's not been cobbled over the years, a motorhome trans will have an external parking brake and will be a short-tail. No good for car use. If this 70 engine is internally-balanced any 67-newer 'internal-balanced' 727 converter will work. Sounds like either the MH or the 69 converter should be OK. Whether it will give a desirable stall speed is another matter. Fixed

Post deleted by moparts [Re: Fury Fan] #919652 02/02/11 07:21 PM 02/02/11 07:21 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919653 02/02/11 07:25 PM 02/02/11 07:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Good deal. I have heard of some 70's truck motors that have the six pack rods and crank. I don't know if there is any truth to it? I guess I will find out on teardown. As far as the trans goes, should I just scrap it or one of the other posts said he changed out the tail shaft and housing and used the trans. What are the last three on the six pack rods so I can check them. I am not concerned with stall speeds. Not after performance. Just want a nice reliable drivetrain. You can swap the mainshaft and the tail off a smallblock car trans and throw a shift kit in it and be good to go , go thru it while it's apart. Buy a Hi stall factory refurbed convertor from Dayco , they are about 75 plus your core .

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919654 02/02/11 07:29 PM 02/02/11 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: I am not going to focus on correct internals. I do want it externally correct as possible. I just want to freshen it up with existing internals. Since I am doing this I will most likely use a 727 that is currently behind a 69 383. Can I use the stock converter that is on this trans. or do I need a 70 style?? I need one more schooling on the internal/external balance issue. 70 is when they changed it correct? I am just trying to avoid future problems with vibrations. Could I simply use the converter from the trans. that is currently on the 440? Or use the complete trans if it has the long tail shaft? I don't have enough experience on pans so I better got the 6 quart and tube from Ma Mopar. I assume it will look fairly correct? Just saw this , ignore my post above , use the 69 383 trans and convertor ... assuming it's an internal balance engine , if it's external just buy the B+M weighted flexplate and use the 383 convertor ... the 70 440 in HP trim used the 6qt Hemi pan.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor [Re: JohnRR] #919655 02/02/11 10:37 PM 02/02/11 10:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 337 Colorado 6 67plymouthman enthusiast
67plymouthman enthusiast 6 Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 337 Colorado	Are the valves the same size in both the truck and car motors???

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor [Re: JohnRR] #919656 02/03/11 01:40 PM 02/03/11 01:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana F Fury Fan master
Fury Fan master F Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana	Quote: Yes, 70-71 440 HP and 6-pk got EXTERNALLY balanced due to the heavy rods. Fixed Thanks, JohnRR, I re-read it a few times while I was typing it and still missed it.

Post deleted by moparts [Re: Fury Fan] #919657 02/03/11 02:04 PM 02/03/11 02:04 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919658 02/03/11 02:38 PM 02/03/11 02:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis HemiRick master
HemiRick master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis	A HP 440 with the heavy rods has a non symmetrical harmonic balancer. Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919659 02/03/11 02:44 PM 02/03/11 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: I hope this doesn't sound stupid but I am trying to digest this internal/external balance issue. If the 440 truck engine has standard rods it will be internally balanced and I can use the 69 727 convertor and all? I assume I need to use the existing balancer that is on the 440? Now, if it has the H duty rods and crank and is externally balanced what if anything do I need to do in order to use the 69 trans.? I always thought the harmonic did the work no matter what crank and rods it had? How else could it be externally balanced unless weight was added to the flex plate? I am still a little confused here? I just want to avoid vibration issues with this project. Weight is not added to the flexplate it was added to the torque convertor by the factory. B+M sells a weighted flexplate , but it's not really weighted it has a big scallop out of it OPPOSITE of where the weight would be added on the torque convertor. By using this you can use ANY NEUTRAL balance convertor you want and not worry about the balance issue. Part of the reason the HP engines were external balanced was because of rod AND piston weight, it's not hard or costly to internal balance a big rod motor. Ignore the rods, what balancer is on the engine ?

Post deleted by moparts [Re: JohnRR] #919660 02/03/11 03:46 PM 02/03/11 03:46 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919661 02/03/11 04:36 PM 02/03/11 04:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana F Fury Fan master
Fury Fan master F Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana	Quote: Is the B&M flex plate supposed to make up for a converter that is built for an internally balanced motor? yes Quote: For some reason I am still having trouble with this because I think all cranks are balanced by the manufacturer? At least all 383 and 440 cranks I have seen have drilled balance holes in the counterweights. I am thinking its dynamic balancing? I am no expert on this but thats always what I have assumed? Yes, cranks can be balanced to themselves. However, we're talking about the whole reciprocating assembly of crank-pistons-rods; that's a different balance. Consider a rim, one that's perfectly balanced. Now put a tire on it, one with a big chunk of steel stuck in the tread. Unbalanced, right? Now, put a balance weight opposite the steel to bring it back in balace as an assembly. That's what externally-balanced engines are. Balance weights are placed on harmonic damper and flywheel/torque converter (by OEM, anyway). Quote: I also thought that the torque converters were balanced totally separate from engine? More as an aft of the crankshaft. Yes, converters will be balanced unto themselves, and these will usually be thin weights, about 1/2 size of a stick of gum. 1-2 per converter is common. The balance weights for an 'external-balance' converter, though, will be ~1" long and 1/4" thick, usually one each side of the drain plug. Here's an old thread, it's on flywheels, but there might be a nugget or 2 of info that will help you. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=

Post deleted by moparts [Re: Fury Fan] #919662 02/03/11 05:01 PM 02/03/11 05:01 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919663 02/03/11 05:26 PM 02/03/11 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Now I am getting it! I will need to use the balancer and converter that are currently on this 440 (if it is externally balanced) correct? If internally balanced I can use the 69 converter. Once again I am no expert on this subject but when they balance the rotating assy. ie: rods, pistons don't they simply match the weights of these internal so they are all exactly the same? Isn't this achieved by removing material from the rods and pistons? I would think Chrysler would have done this to the HP and Six Packs and not the standard engines? Seem backwards to me? I would use the 69 convertor and get a B+M flexplate instead of using a convetor SPECED for a MOTORHOME and it's camshaft... this is all ASSuMEing it's an externally balanced engine .

Post deleted by moparts [Re: JohnRR] #919664 02/03/11 05:43 PM 02/03/11 05:43 PM
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Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919665 02/04/11 12:09 PM 02/04/11 12:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,684 Des Moines IA S Soopernaut master
Soopernaut master S Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,684 Des Moines IA	They didn't put 440s in trucks in 1970. Are you positive it is a 440, and if it is, are you positive it is original to the vehicle. The 413 was a common large truck/motorhome engine. Then again anything is possible so it could be an original 440. 1970 Dodge d100/eventually going on a 77 D100 frame

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor [Re: Soopernaut] #919666 02/04/11 12:55 PM 02/04/11 12:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: They didn't put 440s in trucks in 1970. Are you positive it is a 440, and if it is, are you positive it is original to the vehicle. The 413 was a common large truck/motorhome engine. Then again anything is possible so it could be an original 440. Very good point ...

Post deleted by moparts [Re: JohnRR] #919667 02/04/11 02:21 PM 02/04/11 02:21 PM
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Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Last edited by B3coupe; 02/04/11 02:25 PM.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor #919668 02/04/11 02:33 PM 02/04/11 02:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana F Fury Fan master
Fury Fan master F Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,533 Indiana	Someone will correct me if I'm wrong (where's JohnRR ) but I believe 7T refers to a 77 engine, T for truck, E for cast crank. Regardelss, a 69 block would be E440. Where in Illinois are you? If you are able to drive to Indianapolis, I might be able to hook you up with a near-complete 70 440 350hp (missing the carb) with 80k miles. Been sitting loose in my garage for 3-4 years, not sure if I'll ever use it or what to do with it. I'd sell it for the right price, of course, but between the $400 bare-block ads on here and the guys that say they buy whole running 440s for $200, I'm not sure what price to put on it. It's been a low priority so I just squirt the cylinders and spin it periodically.

Re: 70 440 car vs truck motor [Re: Fury Fan] #919669 02/04/11 05:08 PM 02/04/11 05:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Someone will correct me if I'm wrong (where's JohnRR ) but I believe 7T refers to a 77 engine, T for truck, E for cast crank. Regardelss, a 69 block would be E440. Yes that is correct , 77 440 with a cast crank, Now you know how I feel with those chomping at the bit to correct something I post that is incorrect, which I appreciate because I don't want to give out incorrect info ...

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