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Valve Train Deflection #901531
01/10/11 08:54 PM
01/10/11 08:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
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Oregon
sg66mopar Offline OP
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We've been trying to get my new motor set up with my old B1 MC heads and the rocker gear they came with. I bought a new cam that has .500" lobe lift. The lift at the valve should be .850 with the 1.7 rockers. When we put the valve gear all together with the 850 lb. Manley springs we are only getting .750 lift at the valve on the intake and about .780 lift on the exhaust. When we put it together with lightweight checking springs we had .850 intake and .875 exhaust.

Thats a LOT of deflection!

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901532
01/10/11 09:20 PM
01/10/11 09:20 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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There are only 2 places that have a lot of compliance, and only 1 that's easy to fix.
How big are your pushrods?


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Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: polyspheric] #901533
01/10/11 09:25 PM
01/10/11 09:25 PM
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Oregon
sg66mopar Offline OP
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Pushrods are 3/8" .120 wall from Smith Brothers.

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901534
01/10/11 10:06 PM
01/10/11 10:06 PM
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WA
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Aren’t you running the Koffles rockers arms and shafts? If so you will need spares I have a full set with spares. Looks like you will need better pushrods. I’m running .145 wall 3/8 pushrods the 7/16 would be better.

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901535
01/10/11 10:57 PM
01/10/11 10:57 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I just bought a set of 8 Manton 7/16 to 3/8 single tapered .167 wall pushrods for my 527 440-1 headed bracket motor intake rockers. I originally had a set of 7/16x.095 series 3 made but the intakes where rubbing on three cylinders And I ordered them a little to long No more 3/8 diameter pushrods for me on any roller cam motor that has more then 600 lbs open pressure I picked up 8 HP and move the peak HP up 400 RPM on the engine dyno by switching from a set of Smith Bros. 3/8x (supposedily SP?) .120 wall(they actually measured .083 thick after one of them broke in half during a dyno pull ) to a set of Manton 3/8x.120 Series three pushrods Time to move up, let me know if I can help, I'm a dealer for both


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: JD Dart] #901536
01/10/11 11:09 PM
01/10/11 11:09 PM
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nc
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emarine01 Offline
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We run the same Smith bro push rod with 650 open press, @ 7.50 long, I would think you need 7/16 @ your length

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901537
01/10/11 11:19 PM
01/10/11 11:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Is this a single shaft system... you most likely have
a few different places flexing.... the push rod, the
rockers and the shafts
EDIT
Forgot to add the cam itself flexing but your not running
big spring pressure... whats the cam diameter

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 01/11/11 12:20 AM.
Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: MR_P_BODY] #901538
01/11/11 12:10 AM
01/11/11 12:10 AM
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UK
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602heavy Offline
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Are both heads on & valve train lashed?

Last edited by 602heavy; 01/11/11 12:12 AM.
Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901539
01/11/11 01:44 AM
01/11/11 01:44 AM
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did you check for spring binding? bring your lift to the top, use a feeler guage to check..050

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: MR_P_BODY] #901540
01/11/11 02:15 AM
01/11/11 02:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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I agree the shafts probably move, but it can't be much or something would give up.
7/16" is going to help a lot more than it sounds, it's worth doing if only to remove (or at least minimize) 1 variable.
Taper is just as strong as single diameter, since the "bendy" part is mid-point (the ends could be 1/4" for the last inch without penalty).


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Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901541
01/11/11 02:25 AM
01/11/11 02:25 AM
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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FWIW I run Manton Pushrods. They are 7/16"x.168" wall. I have about .020" deflection in mine. Lobe lift is basically the same. I also run a lot more spring. Mine are 1010 open. Also I run T&D paired rocker gear.

On my last B1 original motor I ran a 3/8" Smith Brothers pushrod with a little less lobe lift than you and say about .040"+-. I also ran the manley 850lb springs. This was with T&D common shaft rockers. Could have been the sommon shaft or maybe it was the pushrod??

Had to go check over my notes but that is what I found.


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Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: polyspheric] #901542
01/11/11 01:34 PM
01/11/11 01:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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The single shafts are a PITA to upgrade.
IIRC OD is 7/8"?
The OD is far the biggest factor, but needs everything changed (stands, rockers).
Comparo, with 7/8" OD with 1/8" wall as 100%:
1" OD with 1/8" wall = +57.7%

The material doesn't matter at all - moly isn't less bendy than mild steel and alum is worthless.
Wall thickness is what's left, and it doesn't do much (although it's cheap and there's no down-side). You don't even really need it hardened or chromed if you have bushings (needle bearings or plain rocker ID: absolutely necessary).

Comparo, with 7/8" OD with 1/8" wall as 100%:
7/8" OD with 1/4" wall = +30.6%
7/8" OD with 3/8" wall = +35.1%
Give me your wall thcikness and I'll do the math for you.

Another stand between the existing might do something, but not much room.
Upsizing all the stand hardware will improve location (i.e., 5/16" > 3/8", etc.) but the heads have to be tapped, not much room in the stuff, etc.
Extending all stand/cap hardware upward and using a fabricated tie-bar will do something, but the obvious problems:
1. must clear the rocker path, so tall
2. no clearance in the cover
3. must be reamed to accept stand studs


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Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: Al_Alguire] #901543
01/11/11 02:01 PM
01/11/11 02:01 PM
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Posts: 1,106
Quebec, Canada
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Quote:

FWIW I run Manton Pushrods. They are 7/16"x.168" wall. I have about .020" deflection in mine. Lobe lift is basically the same. I also run a lot more spring. Mine are 1010 open. Also I run T&D paired rocker gear.





What series Manton are they?

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: Diablo] #901544
01/11/11 02:24 PM
01/11/11 02:24 PM
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What series Manton are they?




Series 5. 504-168 to be exact.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: polyspheric] #901545
01/11/11 02:54 PM
01/11/11 02:54 PM
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North Sweden
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Quote:



The material doesn't matter at all - moly isn't less bendy than mild steel and alum is worthless.
Wall thickness is what's left, and it doesn't do much (although it's cheap and there's no down-side). You don't even really need it hardened or chromed if you have bushings (needle bearings or plain rocker ID: absolutely necessary).





Modulus of elasticity for steel is around 29, (10x6 psi)
You are right, alum will bend easy 10, (10x6 psi) titanium is a little better with 15.5
A common misunderstanding, is that a molly chassi is stiffer than a mild steel, but the modulus is about the same and with thinner walls, the molly tubes will flex( bend more then the same diameter mild steel). Stretch as in permanent deformation, is what cr-mo is good for.

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: Al_Alguire] #901546
01/11/11 02:58 PM
01/11/11 02:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
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Michigan
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What series Manton are they?




Series 5. 504-168 to be exact.




I just called Manton the other day for 5 series rods for my mess, $600 for 18 shipped!!


'65 Belvedere
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Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: JD Dart] #901547
01/11/11 08:24 PM
01/11/11 08:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,288
Oregon
sg66mopar Offline OP
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Quote:

Aren’t you running the Koffles rockers arms and shafts? If so you will need spares I have a full set with spares. Looks like you will need better pushrods. I’m running .145 wall 3/8 pushrods the 7/16 would be better.




Are you looking to part with some or am I reading between the lines.

New ones are $480. At that point I'd probably step up to T&Ds.

Re: Valve Train Deflection [Re: sg66mopar] #901548
01/12/11 04:39 AM
01/12/11 04:39 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 739
WA
JD Dart Offline
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Sure I'll give you a stealing deal on my stuff it includes pushrods too. Went with T&D.
Email me jkcomp5957@yahoo.com







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