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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: RyanJ]
#879776
12/14/10 10:24 PM
12/14/10 10:24 PM
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408strokerdart
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and also need to know what to do with all of this compression if I make the switch.
? What do you mean?
Just thought I was on the high side for going alky? 
It's a high static #, but with wide LSA & alot of duration, I'm sure the cranking pressure & dynamic is'nt that radical.
Methanol is unusual stuff from my limited research on it, it has a really high RON # like in the low 130's, but a low MON # in low 100's. I just know alot of turbo cars especially 4 cyl stuff with really high boost (30+) are going to it. & if it lives in those apps, it will be more than fine in yours.
I'd start out on cheap M1 VP & then try their new M5 stuff... I talked to one guy @ track last fall who was running the M5 in his BB GM Dragster & was real happy with it. I've never tried it, but if I was running meth I certainly would. I'm injecting M1 into my turbo motor, M5 is not recommended for pre-compressor due to it's increased volitility...
This is good to know Ryan. With the thought of changing to alky, does this change much of what we talked about doing to the engine last week?
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: Bigbeep]
#879777
12/14/10 10:26 PM
12/14/10 10:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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408strokerdart
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Well Brian, I don't have a bunch of info, but mine picked up .17 in the 1/4 (flying toilet). Not much to add about the throttle response. Unreal! I was running it like it was on gas the first couple times and it didn't like it. Starting bumping the temp up before staging, and found it likes right around 190-200*. My 1/8 picked up almost a .1
HTH, Beep
Thanks John. I would be happy with .10 from the change to alky, .10 from some additional weight loss that is coming and .10 from a few tricks we are thinking about for the engine. Goal is 5.65 in the 1/8th next time out. 
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#879778
12/14/10 11:01 PM
12/14/10 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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and also need to know what to do with all of this compression if I make the switch.
? What do you mean?
Just thought I was on the high side for going alky?
It's a high static #, but with wide LSA & alot of duration, I'm sure the cranking pressure & dynamic is'nt that radical.
Methanol is unusual stuff from my limited research on it, it has a really high RON # like in the low 130's, but a low MON # in low 100's. I just know alot of turbo cars especially 4 cyl stuff with really high boost (30+) are going to it. & if it lives in those apps, it will be more than fine in yours.
I'd start out on cheap M1 VP & then try their new M5 stuff... I talked to one guy @ track last fall who was running the M5 in his BB GM Dragster & was real happy with it. I've never tried it, but if I was running meth I certainly would. I'm injecting M1 into my turbo motor, M5 is not recommended for pre-compressor due to it's increased volitility...
This is good to know Ryan. With the thought of changing to alky, does this change much of what we talked about doing to the engine last week?
Not really other than if you did a Toilet/injection, the intake work is not as critical.... if you do carb Meth it "should" actually like the new intake even more...
Cam wise... it will still pick up about same no matter what the fuel, that's just a matter of ramp speed & some more duration. That's gonna help no matter what.
To be honest I think if you did injection with M5 on a 420 intake & lose 100 lbs you'll be where you need to be, without screwing with cam, so you could limit all your changes to external of motor. The added TQ the meth will put in will also really help cover up that glide lacking gear in the first 1/2 track.
Every dyno test I have ever done on Carbureted gas VS Carb meth, they always pick up 20-25 Ft lbs across board & usually about 20 HP. & I'm not using junk gas carbs to test against... it's just realistic gain to be expected if both carbs are good. I have not tested Gas VS injected methanol, (since it's a difficult thing to switch & test quickly) but everyone claims the TQ increase is even greater....
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: RyanJ]
#879779
12/14/10 11:33 PM
12/14/10 11:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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408strokerdart
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Not really other than if you did a Toilet/injection, the intake work is not as critical.... if you do carb Meth it "should" actually like the new intake even more...
Cam wise... it will still pick up about same no matter what the fuel, that's just a matter of ramp speed & some more duration. That's gonna help no matter what.
To be honest I think if you did injection with M5 on a 420 intake & lose 100 lbs you'll be where you need to be, without screwing with cam, so you could limit all your changes to external of motor. The added TQ the meth will put in will also really help cover up that glide lacking gear in the first 1/2 track.
Every dyno test I have ever done on Carbureted gas VS Carb meth, they always pick up 20-25 Ft lbs across board & usually about 20 HP. & I'm not using junk gas carbs to test against... it's just realistic gain to be expected if both carbs are good. I have not tested Gas VS injected methanol, (since it's a difficult thing to switch & test quickly) but everyone claims the TQ increase is even greater....
I might think about doing the cam as well since it is a fairly small cost and I will be into the engine anyway. Still giving some thought to sending the engine to you to put on the dyno for before/after pulls.
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#879780
12/15/10 12:03 AM
12/15/10 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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State College, PA
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Not really other than if you did a Toilet/injection, the intake work is not as critical.... if you do carb Meth it "should" actually like the new intake even more...
Cam wise... it will still pick up about same no matter what the fuel, that's just a matter of ramp speed & some more duration. That's gonna help no matter what.
To be honest I think if you did injection with M5 on a 420 intake & lose 100 lbs you'll be where you need to be, without screwing with cam, so you could limit all your changes to external of motor. The added TQ the meth will put in will also really help cover up that glide lacking gear in the first 1/2 track.
Every dyno test I have ever done on Carbureted gas VS Carb meth, they always pick up 20-25 Ft lbs across board & usually about 20 HP. & I'm not using junk gas carbs to test against... it's just realistic gain to be expected if both carbs are good. I have not tested Gas VS injected methanol, (since it's a difficult thing to switch & test quickly) but everyone claims the TQ increase is even greater....
I might think about doing the cam as well since it is a fairly small cost and I will be into the engine anyway. Still giving some thought to sending the engine to you to put on the dyno for before/after pulls.
I'm all into cam regrinds, trust me, but I just remember looking @ valve relief depth on the spec sheet the other day.... I'd love to regrind cam too but... I really don't think you're gonna have room without fly cutting pistons. 
I believe CP picked the depth on those reliefs based off of the free drop of the valves in the heads & the existing cam specs... now days I dictate the relief depths on Diamonds & usually make them overly generous for issues like this in future, but CP likes to run the piston to valve tight & go off of all known specs. Tighter piston to valve makes hair more power, & it allows you not to have so much dome if you don't have that extra relief depth volume to make up for.... So their are reasons they chose those relief depths but.... it's not gonna help when we want to put 8 degrees more ramp speed in it.
As long as you're kosher with cutting the pistons as well, then can do the cam grind.
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: RyanJ]
#879781
12/15/10 01:17 AM
12/15/10 01:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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408strokerdart
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Not really other than if you did a Toilet/injection, the intake work is not as critical.... if you do carb Meth it "should" actually like the new intake even more...
Cam wise... it will still pick up about same no matter what the fuel, that's just a matter of ramp speed & some more duration. That's gonna help no matter what.
To be honest I think if you did injection with M5 on a 420 intake & lose 100 lbs you'll be where you need to be, without screwing with cam, so you could limit all your changes to external of motor. The added TQ the meth will put in will also really help cover up that glide lacking gear in the first 1/2 track.
Every dyno test I have ever done on Carbureted gas VS Carb meth, they always pick up 20-25 Ft lbs across board & usually about 20 HP. & I'm not using junk gas carbs to test against... it's just realistic gain to be expected if both carbs are good. I have not tested Gas VS injected methanol, (since it's a difficult thing to switch & test quickly) but everyone claims the TQ increase is even greater....
I might think about doing the cam as well since it is a fairly small cost and I will be into the engine anyway. Still giving some thought to sending the engine to you to put on the dyno for before/after pulls.
I'm all into cam regrinds, trust me, but I just remember looking @ valve relief depth on the spec sheet the other day.... I'd love to regrind cam too but... I really don't think you're gonna have room without fly cutting pistons.
I believe CP picked the depth on those reliefs based off of the free drop of the valves in the heads & the existing cam specs... now days I dictate the relief depths on Diamonds & usually make them overly generous for issues like this in future, but CP likes to run the piston to valve tight & go off of all known specs. Tighter piston to valve makes hair more power, & it allows you not to have so much dome if you don't have that extra relief depth volume to make up for.... So their are reasons they chose those relief depths but.... it's not gonna help when we want to put 8 degrees more ramp speed in it.
As long as you're kosher with cutting the pistons as well, then can do the cam grind.
It's time to make this thing boogie. I am ready to pull out all the stops and get an 8 second time slip while I'm at it. 
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: MegaDart]
#879784
12/15/10 06:48 PM
12/15/10 06:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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Not to argue with your advice Ryan but if I had to pay for M! or M5 I seriously doubt I'd run alky. One of the best things about Alky is that it's cheap! Many racers including me feel the VP meth is just a marketing ploy and money grab and do not buy it.
What does M5 cost? I have only bought M1 for my turbo's metahnol injection system. I think it was $6 a gallon, which I thought was a but steep since we run the cheap stuff normally @ around $3.75 a gallon, but I was standing there @ the VP dealer getting my C16 & said throw in 5 gallons of M1.
So I guess I'd try The cheap $3 meth VS the M5 on dyno & find out if it's really worth it or not. I just like to see tangible results...
I'm gonna try a Q16 against C16 on a 17:1 motor here in a month or 2 just to see if it is worth the added expense & hassle.
I don't know what Brian is running in the motor now gas wise, but @ over 16:1 I'm sure it is'nt cheap stuff..... So I don't think fuel cost savings is really any huge factor for him @ least on this particular application.
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: DavidDean]
#879787
12/15/10 08:49 PM
12/15/10 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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I paid $305 for a drum of M-5. That price will vary around the country. I got a price in the Dallas area for $275. People who run M-5 say its good for about .1-.15 over regular methanol. M-5 contains Nitro parrafin. The M-5s little pricey for me to run on a regular basis. The last drum of Methanol I bought here was about $150/drum. I paid $200 in Vegas.I know some racers who run some reclaimed methanol from the oil field who say its ok I think they paid around $110/drum. I'm leary of the reclaimed stuff.I'm certainly no alky expert though.
@ $305 a drum that's only $5.65 a gallon... Granted you will use almost 2X as much per pass as gas, but still even if during extended warm up etc you do use 2X as much, you are only into it less than $12 compared to same amount of gasoline, which for good stuff can range anywhere from $12-$18 a gallon or more. I'm paying Just over $12 a gallon for C16, Q16 by the drum around here is around $14.80 a gallon... C25 $15/gallon.... Sunoco 116 around $14/gallon... so The M5 even @ it's higher cost & double useage, would still be cheaper than a high octane race gas in the end.
I thought about putting my Turbo motor on straight meth, but decided since I do want to drive it on street some, my cell just is'nt big enough...
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: DavidDean]
#879789
12/16/10 10:16 AM
12/16/10 10:16 AM
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408strokerdart
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I've changed to methanol(pro systems SV-1) picked up close to 2 tenths 12.5:1 CR.The only draw backs are hard starting in cold weather and a little more fuel system maintenance.I can purchase methanol locally for about $150.00/drum.So far I really like it.
Are you using the vacuum referenced regulator with the SV1?
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#879790
12/16/10 11:42 AM
12/16/10 11:42 AM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 636
Central,Ohio
FASTFISH420
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Central,Ohio
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What does that thing weigh?I would just spend the money and find you a better top end,cam,etc..mine runs 5.60's at 3100 pounds on Q-16..on mild tune..and 90 degree weather.but your talking pro stock top end with a highly modified 420 manifold.Your car runs real close to what my old 410 inch motor ran with old 16 degree heads,the best it would run was 9.20 with c-25..keep plugging away at it.. I could set you up with a good motor??
1969 Barracuda 8 second all/motor small block
2014 Shelby GT500 Mustang
Uratchko Racing Engines
www.URE-RACING.com
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#879791
12/16/10 12:33 PM
12/16/10 12:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,632
Lubbock,TX
DavidDean
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Lubbock,TX
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I've changed to methanol(pro systems SV-1) picked up close to 2 tenths 12.5:1 CR.The only draw backs are hard starting in cold weather and a little more fuel system maintenance.I can purchase methanol locally for about $150.00/drum.So far I really like it.
Are you using the vacuum referenced regulator with the SV1?
Yes
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#879792
12/16/10 03:37 PM
12/16/10 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,924
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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Quote:
Fuel cost isn't a concern though.
Good to get that across. You are looking for performance gain, not cost savings. I wanted cost savings 1st, improved ability to repeat/consitant dial-in (bracket racing), and reduced heat for round robin racing (3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round), putting 5 rounds with 10 minutes between each.
Since I make 150 runs per year, fuel cost paid for my Flying toilet in less than 2 years. And that was from $7.75/gallon 110 octane gas, not $12 fuel. Some racers make 50, some 350 per year.
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Re: Going to alky.....how much difference?
[Re: FASTFISH420]
#879793
12/16/10 03:54 PM
12/16/10 03:54 PM
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408strokerdart
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What does that thing weigh?I would just spend the money and find you a better top end,cam,etc..mine runs 5.60's at 3100 pounds on Q-16..on mild tune..and 90 degree weather.but your talking pro stock top end with a highly modified 420 manifold.Your car runs real close to what my old 410 inch motor ran with old 16 degree heads,the best it would run was 9.20 with c-25..keep plugging away at it..
I could set you up with a good motor??
I'm at 3040lbs race weight right now. Going to attempt to remove 140 lbs over the winter (I have a plan that won't leave my car looking like a cut up pro stocker). So, even at the reduced weight I still have some work to do. Trying not to break the bank.....was thinking about a big inch all alum big block, but I just can't get over the price tag to do it when I don't need to go 5.20's. Would love to have the engine you have now, but I'm sure it also isn't cost effective either. 
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