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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: 6bblgt]
#859685
11/22/10 02:23 AM
11/22/10 02:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
sixpakdodge
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
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Quote:
Restored original parts.
I can see that for pieces like trim and driveline parts, but what about stuff that wear out like suspension pieces and interior materials?
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: 6bblgt]
#859686
11/22/10 02:35 AM
11/22/10 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,825
A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,825
A collage of whims
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I think in a way we are answering our own questions here: WE are the judges as to what's "really the way they were" and what's a beautifully rebuilt car or a well-maintained driveable refreshing. Let the awards fall where they may, those who know what's accurate will judge the cars for ourselves accordingly. As long as the hard work is appreciated, in a way everybody is satisfied; it's just that some of us pick certain cars or restorations over others because they float our boat. I've seen them all, and done the resto thing in different ways on different cars, but I find I get the biggest kick from the Survivors, mainly because I was around when these cars were new & used musclecars. I appreciate that they've become icons, and that there are guys that do work like the "OEM Valiant". If they were all the same, we'd have less to talk about. Should repro parts be identical to the originals? Of course, but some of the original methods and materials are no longer available, and/or the car owner's wallet couldn't support the perfectly accurate part; nevertheless, most restorations are arguably an expression of love for that car, which is vastly better than letting them rot.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: domingo]
#859688
11/22/10 03:38 PM
11/22/10 03:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
...There is room for everything and everybody in the hobby....
...for those who want to pay 5k for a set of shocks, and for those who dont see the point of spending that much and who will settle for something that looks 99% close...
...there is room for those who actually want to drive their rare cars, and for those who want to roll em off and on a trailer and dont want the NOS tires to touch the ground so they mount em when the car is lifted...
...whatever makes you happy I guess....
...I personally like (for myself) a very well done resto, that I can actually drive, using some repro parts here and there when the factory parts prove too hard to locate or when they are crazy $$$...
However I also like to look at the over the top restorations at the shows as s spectator. I dont think I would really enjoy owning a car I cant drive though...
I absolutely appreciate and enjoy the 100 point OE gold resto's using all assy line parts. hats off to those guys! 
HOWEVER,
With my car, I already spent 4 years gathering parts and I will admit that as per Sheldon't comments, I would prefer NICE original parts over repop pces (thanks Tony!), there is no way I could justify or bother with NOS wear items like shocks, suspension bits, exhaust, belts, hoses, wires, brake lines, fuel lines, etc. etc.
Ultimately, I don't have a problem with some repops on a car that is intended to be driven.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: TONY_DAGOSTINO]
#859691
11/23/10 02:30 AM
11/23/10 02:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
....assuming the restorer has the knowledge to provide a correct resto .....
Hi Mr. T! After our many long conversations that relate to this topic, I just wanted to add a couple of points. Sometimes it is still not enough for a restorer to have all original parts and pieces to a low mileage vehicle. I often use the "toupee analogy" to make the point. Imagine someone saying to a guy who wears a toupee, " Man oh Man! I have been trying to figure out if you are wearing a hairpiece and after 20 minuets I FINALLY realized that what I am looking at is not your real hair! That is one of the most Natural looking toupees I have EVER seen!"
At that point (if I was the guy wearing the toupee) I would calmly remove it, pitch it in the trash and start over! In my opinion, there is nothing complimentary about someone walking up and saying, "that is one of the best restorations I have seen!" There is one exception to that statement however! A restoration looks good or "best" when it is non-manipulated and untouched appearing. You can't tell it has been restored! An OE restoration should only be recognized as a "restoration" because everyone scrutinizing it KNOWS that there is no way that it made it through the last 40 years in such "brand new" appearing condition. You know it is restored ONLY because it looks so "factory original." I have seen (some of the cars mentioned here) with rust pits that have been painted over and the damage is still evident. It is one of the most elementary and obvious mistakes that is left on many OE restorations. I saw one of the vehicles (at the Nationals) with mirrors underneath that displayed and allowed the pits to stand out like a sore thumb! There are two areas that about 99.9% of all restored cars are guilty of. They either look "repaired" or they still have evidence of "damage" such as rust pits. EVERY square centimeter of the car should be checked for ANY sign of "damage" or age. It takes a tremendous amount of time and discipline but it is what is necessary when restoring an OE correct vehicle. Rust pits are similar going to the dentist, having him remove the (obvious) brown decay but leaving the cavity/hole! Work those tight places and don't stop until all signs of age (pits, etc...) are completely gone! When you think you have it fixed or completed.....check it again and again and again. Don't leave a single pit ANYWHERE on the car. That goes double for ALL bare metal components such as the drive shaft, control arms, head pipes, suspension pieces, etc.... I think it is one of the hardest things to accomplish in the overall scheme of things.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: ECS]
#859692
11/23/10 02:33 PM
11/23/10 02:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,047
Arizona
68CoronetRT
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,047
Arizona
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It is not only the customer but also the car itself that decides the extent of restoration in my opinion. When the cost of doing an NOS restoration surpasses by twofold the finished value of the car, well how can anyone say it is worth it? I know guys that have spent 3 times the value of a fully restored car trying to get their vehicle restored. Granted if you are restoring a '71 Hemi Cuda striving for perfection with only OE is warranted but could we say the same thing for a 340 Duster? While I agree that seeing a properly restored car is becoming a rare sight I also understand how we got to this place. The over restored cars are nice to look at and seeing any MOPAR all polished and sparkling is a delight however I am with the others that I wouldn't enjoy owning one. I want to drive it, smoke the tires and in general just enjoy it like Ma Mopar intended.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: mopargem]
#859693
11/23/10 03:00 PM
11/23/10 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
So what does one do when the supply of NOS or "assembly line" parts goes dry in the coming years?
I'm asking a serious question here. If I was to own a 100% OE car, I would want 100% OE Chrysler parts, not reproductions. Eventually though, the supply of those Chrysler parts will run out. Where do you turn then?
You turn to existing cars
Its already happening, lesser survivor or nice cars are being swapped of their OE parts
or you turn to this:
1: All original and no reproduction parts
2: Definitely built as a driver
3: No high dollar hard to find original parts to be gouged for
4: Little or no room to place mirrors under car
5: Unique to say the least
6: A real "1 of 1"
7: A great conversation piece at any cruise or show.
8: No need to argue or decide whether to do a Real Deal or Year One just do it how you like and DRIVE IT!
9: Let's see the judges argue or try to deduct points for the wrong color fluid leaking out of something on the car 
10: O.E. paint issues.....you're kidding right? 
Rat Rods the ultimate personal resto IMO
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: Aero426]
#859695
11/23/10 03:16 PM
11/23/10 03:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
MLR426
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: 68CoronetRT]
#859696
11/23/10 04:52 PM
11/23/10 04:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
It is not only the customer but also the car itself that decides the extent of restoration in my opinion.
When the cost of doing an NOS restoration surpasses by twofold the finished value of the car, well how can anyone say it is worth it?
I know guys that have spent 3 times the value of a fully restored car trying to get their vehicle restored.
Granted if you are restoring a '71 Hemi Cuda striving for perfection with only OE is warranted but could we say the same thing for a 340 Duster?
While I agree that seeing a properly restored car is becoming a rare sight I also understand how we got to this place.
The over restored cars are nice to look at and seeing any MOPAR all polished and sparkling is a delight however I am with the others that I wouldn't enjoy owning one. I want to drive it, smoke the tires and in general just enjoy it like Ma Mopar intended.
I agree: but it isn't just the 340 Duster vs. Hemi 'Cuda that determines how far you can/should go, it's also the condition of the car itself. I'm sure DW would agree that to achieve the results he has you need to start with a very clean car in the first place.
My Superbee is a perfect example: although the body was solid and it had the #'s motor, it was missing.....well virtually everything else! and what wasn't missing was too rough to use so I spent 4 years and a wheelbarrow full of cash buying parts, some good used, some NOS, some repops......If I was going for OE Gold, I would have doubled my resto costs for this car......and I already spent faaaaaaar more than it's worth done.
OTOH, my 'Cuda is a 53,000 original mile survivor with the factory belts, hoses, wires, etc. all in place. The 'Cuda would be far easier (and cheaper) to restore to that level than my SB would have been.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: DPelletier]
#859698
11/23/10 11:10 PM
11/23/10 11:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,109
Hiram, Georgia
474218
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,109
Hiram, Georgia
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Quote:
...OTOH, my 'Cuda is a 53,000 original mile survivor with the factory belts, hoses, wires, etc. all in place. The 'Cuda would be far easier (and cheaper) to restore to that level than my SB would have been.
Dave
When I bought my 62,000 original mile 69 RR I got a lot of old documentation from the original owner. One of the reciepts was for removal and replacement of all the hoses and belts at 30,000 miles! So should I assume the original owner of my RR took a lot better care of his car then the original owner of your Cuda?
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: polara426]
#859699
11/23/10 11:28 PM
11/23/10 11:28 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,483
Minneapolis, MN
hemi70se
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,483
Minneapolis, MN
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Quote:
Whatever floats your boat but I had to get a kick out of a nervous car owner at carlisle two years ago getting questioned about electronic ignition on a nice b body by a judge when he was just as bewilderd as I was and then I realized he was talkimg about the (voltage regulator)???
That was my HEMI Charger! The "judge" asked me if I had the original distributor. I gave him a bewildered look and asked him "why?" ... he then pointed to the "ELECTRONIC" word on the Voltage regulator. I told him that is factory and it has to do with the CHARGING SYSTEM and not the IGNITION system.  Where do these guys get qualified to be a judge?
I also restored that car with a boatload of NOS parts that took a lot of $$ and 10 years to find.
But did it get any respect for that effort.. no. I got docked on my NOS taillight finish panel and NOS grill for both having a minute hairline scratch in them. Was I about to strip an NOS part and repaint it.. no way! I can only imagine if I had restored some used parts and they had fresh paint that I would have received the full points for each item. You'd think judges would be impressed by seeing NOS parts used, but the truth is they can't even tell. They just judge on whether it is shiny and clean.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: hemi70se]
#859700
11/24/10 12:48 AM
11/24/10 12:48 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
RoadRunnerJD
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
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The "judge" asked me if I had the original distributor. I gave him a bewildered look and asked him "why?" ... he then pointed to the "ELECTRONIC" word on the Voltage regulator. I told him that is factory and it has to do with the CHARGING SYSTEM and not the IGNITION system. for both having a minute hairline scratch in them.
I think this is a bad rap! All judges don't know everything about all cars. A good judge will ask the owner about something he doesn't know and take their word for it unless he can prove otherwise to himself. I doubt if you got docked for the ignition system or the charging system? If your NOS trim was scratched, maybe he had to dock you because someone else had better looking trim than yours and he couldn't give you both the same points. Sounds like the "judge" did OK to me. Judges are not always as knowledgeable as the owners but you and I don't always know as much as we think we know either. It is 95 degrees in the shade in Carlisle in July. I for one appreciate the work these guys do. Unfortunately, sometimes they have to deal with car owners think their stuff doesn't stink.
Last edited by RoadRunnerJD; 11/24/10 02:03 AM.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: hemi70se]
#859702
11/24/10 02:23 AM
11/24/10 02:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
But did it get any respect for that effort.. no. I got docked on my NOS taillight finish panel and NOS grill for both having a minute hairline scratch in them. Was I about to strip an NOS part and repaint it.. no way!
Hi Dirk! Keep in mind that when any car is being judged, it is being judged on the condition as well as the originality. I have had to refurbish/detail almost every NOS part I have ever used in order to make it look new again. When these vehicles were new, it is highly unlikely that scratched or damaged parts would have made it past the final inspection. MANY of the NOS parts that are floating around eBay and swap meets are units that were rejected (for whatever reason) and re-packaged so they could be sent back to the parts depot. Unfortunately, these items could have ended up being sold as service replacement parts by the Dealerships. In some cases they were sold as new parts, returned by the customer, put back into stock and then sat around for YEARS until some parts hound came looking for old left over inventory! The judges are not concerned with a part simply being NOS. They are concerned with originality AND also check to see if the part represents a new factory piece. A part that has been knocked around for forty years can still be NOS but it's "NOS status" does not necessarily mean that it is in new NOS condition.
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Re: What do you want? Year One Resto or The Real Deal?
[Re: 474218]
#859704
11/24/10 01:47 PM
11/24/10 01:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
...OTOH, my 'Cuda is a 53,000 original mile survivor with the factory belts, hoses, wires, etc. all in place. The 'Cuda would be far easier (and cheaper) to restore to that level than my SB would have been.
Dave
When I bought my 62,000 original mile 69 RR I got a lot of old documentation from the original owner. One of the reciepts was for removal and replacement of all the hoses and belts at 30,000 miles! So should I assume the original owner of my RR took a lot better care of his car then the original owner of your Cuda?
Sure, maybe he did? 
I THINK what you're trying to say is that you doubt that that stuff is original on my 'Cuda any you can doubt away all you like. The reason the 'Cuda survived in the shape it has (which is almost completely original except the battery, tires and spark plugs when I got it) is because it spent 25 years in a chicken coup and wasn't driven....not necessarily because the original owner was all that diligent about keeping things perfectly maintained.
I did some things to the car when I bought it to make it safe for my wife to drive, but even the original wheel bearings were perfect: regrease and reinstall.
Give me some pictures and some info on your roadrunner and I'll let you know if it survived as well as my 'cuda or not!
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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