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440-6 bbl tuning #821942
10/04/10 10:34 PM
10/04/10 10:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
71X-mark Offline OP
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71X-mark  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
Just drove for the first time my newly restored 71 GTX 440-6 this past wekkend. The engine builder told me to put on a few hundred miles on the engine and then he would fine tune the carbs. I immediately noticed an erratic idle (even when fully warmed up). It seems to hover around 1250-1300 RMM, then drops to ~950 RPM and jumps back up to ~1250 again. Also, when cruising at speeds above 50 MPH, I can feel the engine pulsating (for lack of a better term), as though it is momentarily starving for fuel; but when I accelerate, it runs fine until I cruise again, and then starts pulsating again.

Specs on my engine are as follows: 440 stroker (496), Edelbrock RPM heads & 6-bbl manifold, 3 Holley repro carbs, 9.0:1 pistons, Lunati 60303 (.494/.514) cam w/1.6:1 ratio roller rockers, MSD distributor/module, TTI headers w/3" exhaust, stock fuel pump, and repro date coded coil. I don't know what the ignition timing is set at. Also, I don't have the idle solenoid installed.

Any diagnosis would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by 71X-mark; 10/04/10 10:59 PM.
Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: 71X-mark] #821943
10/04/10 10:48 PM
10/04/10 10:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,196
Harrisburg, Pa.
screamindriver Offline
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screamindriver  Offline
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Harrisburg, Pa.
Have him check the distributor mechanical advance and see what the springs are doing through the curve...

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: 71X-mark] #821944
10/05/10 01:13 AM
10/05/10 01:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
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West Coast, USA
There are some excellent posts on here for getting the timing and carbs set-up properly. Do a search using the search function on this site, and in the meanwhile maybe someone has the links and can post them. Get the timing sorted out yourself or send your dizzy to FBO for a massage; then work on fine tuning the carbs. Start getting your floats set just right. The how-to is on this site.

Every step you take in getting is sorted out will only make you grin more. Enjoy your "new" ride, and remember it's a journey, not a destination.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: screamindriver] #821945
10/05/10 01:16 AM
10/05/10 01:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
Quote:

Have him check the distributor mechanical advance and see what the springs are doing through the curve...






My 496 6 pack would idle like that too...sometimes not come down past about 1400 rpm.

Did the "weld up the slots" trick in the distributor and changed to light springs.....No more problems and a lot more response and midrange power.All timing in by 1500 rpm.

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: superwrench] #821946
10/05/10 01:20 AM
10/05/10 01:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
Quote:

Quote:

Have him check the distributor mechanical advance and see what the springs are doing through the curve...






My 496 6 pack would idle like that too...sometimes not come down past about 1400 rpm.

Did the "weld up the slots" trick in the distributor and changed to light springs.....No more problems and a lot more response and midrange power.All timing in by 1500 rpm.




I run my 493 sixpack at 20 initial 34 total all in by 26oo RPM, but I have high compression and mix in some race gas.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: jbc426] #821947
10/05/10 07:02 AM
10/05/10 07:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466
Answering the call of the wild
T
ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
ThermoQuad  Offline
top fuel
T

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466
Answering the call of the wild
Give him this
Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

This is not the final word, but close enough

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: ThermoQuad] #821948
10/05/10 12:04 PM
10/05/10 12:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
Quote:

Give him this
Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

This is not the final word, but close enough

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3.....






Wow, great post but, you vacuum carb guys have it tough. The mechanical carbs idle exclusively off the center carb and there is no lean spot when the secondaries are tipped in, no fuel puddling with a 180 thermostat, but you do have keep the outboards closed until your over 2000 rpm, preferably a little higher.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: jbc426] #821949
10/06/10 06:26 PM
10/06/10 06:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
71X-mark Offline OP
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71X-mark  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
Thanks so much for all the info and support. I'll keep everyone posted on the tuning progress.

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: jbc426] #821950
07/25/11 02:14 AM
07/25/11 02:14 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 581
Texas
Texican Offline
mopar
Texican  Offline
mopar

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Posts: 581
Texas
Great Post

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: 71X-mark] #821951
07/25/11 09:16 AM
07/25/11 09:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
here's what I did when I took mine out of the box. after install, I turned the idle screws all the way in then back out 1.25 turns, filled the fuel bowls via a turkey baster then checked the float levels, mine we good. I cranked the idle screw up then fired the car up, let it stay at 2400 and set the timing in full at 36* Then I backed the idle down to 900 and set the mixture screws until I got the best vacuum signal. Then dropped the idle back down to 900. With your compression and aluminum heads you probably could run 38* total. I don't know why he said he'd fine tune it in a few hundred miles... I'd walk away for that guy. No need to wait.
Do you have your vac advance hooked up? Try blocking it. Also With that cam you might want to swap out the outboard springs. Stock PV is going to be 6.5...what type of vacuum signal are you getting?


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: Mr.Yuck] #821952
08/07/11 12:53 PM
08/07/11 12:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
71X-mark Offline OP
member
71X-mark  Offline OP
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Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
I don't have vacuum advance...it's an MSD distributor & 6AL Module. I've actually spoken to hpmike (a regular contributor on this site & guru on 6-bbl's..he's set up several F.A.S.T. 6-bbl cars) and have arranged for him to check the carbs & timing. His shop is only a few miles away. He test drove the car and noticed pinging under load. Also, the temp gauge has always run hotter (1,500 miles now), so I suspect I'm running lean and/or my timing is too advanced. Thanks for your interest and help...I'll keep you informed of the outcome.

Re: 440-6 bbl tuning [Re: Mr.Yuck] #821953
08/07/11 01:01 PM
08/07/11 01:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
Northern NJ, U.S.
71X-mark Offline OP
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Northern NJ, U.S.
Oh, I forgot to mention, manifold vacuum measured 12-13", so I think I'm good with the power valve. hpmike also mentioned that he'd probably install the heavier (brown) diaphragm springs. I believe the yellow springs came with the carb. I told him that when I go to WOT, the motor momentarily hesitates, then takes off. He says that there should be a smooth transition, hence the heavier springs.







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