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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 340duster340]
#818219
11/13/10 03:48 PM
11/13/10 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
landon1
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
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personally, i went cheap, bang for the buck with mine. maybe had 1800 in the whole build - $1200 for all the machine work, new pistons (installed on rods), bearings, gaskets, etc. $400 for the cam and lifters, timing chain, assembly lube, break in lube, triple gauge kit, etc. then maybe $200 for new radiator, heater, and fuel hoses, battery cables, generic gold zinc 7 qt oil pan and pickup(stock was all beat up and warped), milodon windage tray (didn't use - rods would scrape the tray, so that was a waste of money - not sure why the clearance issues), coolant and a couple cases of VR1 10-30. couldn't be happier for what i got out of the build comparted to what i put into it. probably 6 years ago i ordered aerohead reconditioned heads and used those. kept the 69 4bbl intake i had on it with a 650 DP, Comp XE268 cam/lifters, hedman 1.75/3" headers with summit 2.5" exhaust, and Procomp HEI distributor with accel coil, wires, and plugs. i do have to feed it premium, but it doesn't really bother me. and for a CR of ~9:1 and pretty simple, basic, add-ons i'm pretty happy. i wasn't overly concerned with high horsepower, just sticking close to stock, since my car's not a race car, just a cruiser, but i do like to mash the accelerator. but, i can still light up the tires when already rolling about 30 mph or so with highway gears 
'71 Satellite Sebring 440
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818220
09/30/11 10:44 AM
09/30/11 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
sounds like you're referring to the Speed Pro 2266 (at .090) and the 2355 (at .020), am I right? I always thought these were supposed to be the stock replacements for the standard 440 piston from '66 - '71 and for the "six pack" piston, respectively. Is that incorrect?
About 8 years ago I did a basic rebuild on a 440 in a '73 NYer and my intentions were similar to what you're describing- I just wanted a good street engine that would move that heavy b@stard around in traffic using the stock torque converter and 3.23 gears. Here's the details on the engine: bored .030 with the Speed Pro 2355 pistons, rebuilt 452 heads (no port work just valve seats, guides, & springs etc.), steel shim .020 head gaskets, I bought the Summit rebuild kit and the small Summit BB cam (more on that in a minute), had to have the crank turned .010 due to some scoring, plus consider all the usual stuff like timing chain etc etc etc. Used the stock iron intake, rebuilt Thermoquad, stock electronic ignition, stock iron log manifolds, 2.5" dual exhaust, P235/15 tires so that's about a 29" tire. All together with the machine work and parts I figure I spent about $2500 on the engine with me doing all the wrench work.
The thing was an unholy bitİh to tune out the spark knock, I had two distributors that I kept rotating as I would bring one down in the basement to play with the advance curve while running the other. Never could make it happy.... the engine wanted to make power but on premium pump gas I had to choose between spark knock or no balls. I drove it about a year mostly in no balls mode and then took the car off the road, never got back to it. Today that engine is sitting on a stand in the garage. My theory was that the real problem was that the cam was too small, with that combo the dynamic compression was well over 8:1 and it just didn't work. I was thinking at the time that I wanted to build a lot of cylinder pressure with a small cam to move the beast off the line but it ended up being a learning experience. Eventually I'll put a bigger cam in that engine and re-install it into a lighter car with a stall converter and it should be happier.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818221
09/30/11 12:53 PM
09/30/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
sounds like you're referring to the Speed Pro 2266 (at .090) and the 2355 (at .020), am I right? I always thought these were supposed to be the stock replacements for the standard 440 piston from '66 - '71 and for the "six pack" piston, respectively. Is that incorrect?
The 68-69 440 had a piston with a 2.030ish CH , they are about .040 - .050 in the hole . the exact numbers escape me but these are pretty close .
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818223
09/30/11 01:10 PM
09/30/11 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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also, I pulled up my cheat sheet for reference and according to my notes the Speed Pro 2295 piston has a 2.029 CH, wouldn't that pretty much be the replacement for the ones you described?
EDIT: never mind, I just looked it up and Jeg's says it is a pop-up with a 12.1 cc dome. Definitely not a stock replacement for the standard 440 if that is true! Made an amendment to my notes.
further interesting info from my cheat sheet- I've measured 72-78 440's at 0.155 in the hole, which seems to correspond to the Speed Pro #2388 which has a 1.926 CH. Of course, this yields a stupid low CR for a naturally aspirated application but just info worth noting...
Last edited by dem440c; 09/30/11 01:18 PM.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818224
09/30/11 01:27 PM
09/30/11 01:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
ok, yeah, 2.030 would be about .050 in the hole. So with open heads at a fudge number 88 cc you're looking at 9.6:1 SCR although with closed chamber at a fudge number 80 cc the SCR is more like 10.3:1 which seems off to me. Until very recently I've never been diligent about measuring and recording stock piston depth, much to my lament, but I've had a few 66-67 440's in factory condition and they ran happily on mid grade pump gas so I kinda doubt they were that high on the CR. Do you know what the deal is with that? As far as I could tell, the pistons were the same from 67 to 68 but have you measured otherwise?
The heads changed in 68 to an open chamber so they needed a piston with a taller CH to bring the compression back up. 906 normal is more like 90 and the 915 have to be bigger than 80 , the set I have are 81 and have been cut .
Chrysler advertised compression ratios were higher than actual.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818226
09/30/11 02:08 PM
09/30/11 02:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
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Quote:
Keep in mind that this build is for a C-body convertible that I will never take to the strip and will probably not ever even take the rpms above 4500,
The answer is right there (4500 RPM) power brakes,
power steering, A/C, 2.9 - 3.2 rear end (open)
Sounds like a stock rebuild is all you need. Do
the leak down on every cylinder to make sure
whats going on before the rip down.
Stock intake, stock exaust will do just fine.
No need to put on 440 source heads or any other
garbage from China. A good rering, bearings,
gaskets, oil pump, timing chain, maybe a cam, and
your 8 to 1 440 will make all the TQ that your
one wheel wonder can take.
DYI & KIS !!! Do it yourself & keep it simple !!!!
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818227
09/30/11 04:36 PM
09/30/11 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
ok, yeah, 2.030 would be about .050 in the hole. So with open heads at a fudge number 88 cc you're looking at 9.6:1 SCR although with closed chamber at a fudge number 80 cc the SCR is more like 10.3:1 which seems off to me. Until very recently I've never been diligent about measuring and recording stock piston depth, much to my lament, but I've had a few 66-67 440's in factory condition and they ran happily on mid grade pump gas so I kinda doubt they were that high on the CR. Do you know what the deal is with that? As far as I could tell, the pistons were the same from 67 to 68 but have you measured otherwise?
The heads changed in 68 to an open chamber so they needed a piston with a taller CH to bring the compression back up. 906 normal is more like 90 and the 915 have to be bigger than 80 , the set I have are 81 and have been cut .
Chrysler advertised compression ratios were higher than actual.
sure, I know that's what they said about the advertised SCR staying the same after going bigger on the head volume, which would imply they changed pistons in 68... I just don't recall seeing it add up that way. It goes back to before I started keeping better notes but it always seemed to me that the 66-71 440's all had the same piston and that it was about .090 in the hole, which would correspond to the 2266 piston. I figured they just lied about the compression since they tended to do that sort of thing anyway. With a closed chamber head and .020 gaskets this is around 9.5:1 SCR. I also understood that this was the reason they created the "Six Pack" piston, to regain the lost compression with the open heads for the true performance applications. Just my interpretation mind you, I'm willing to be wrong ;D
Recently I was playing with a 65 413 and the uncut 516 heads came out at 80 cc and the pistons were .090 in the hole. I added it to my new notekeeping system for posterity, and this also corresponded to what I recall about the 66-71 440 pistons and closed chamber heads. Yeah, it's a fudge, as I recall I've seen everything from 78ish to 82ish on these. Open chamber heads I recall seeing a range of 88ish to 91ish but I usually use 88 as my fudge number for all open chamber heads. In the end of course there seemed to be a ton of variability in the factory's work so you have to measure each set firsthand when you're planning and building your engine but for generalization purposes I use the fudge numbers.
SO yeah, I understand that they advertised the same SCR in 67 and 68 and yet the volume got bigger which would imply that the piston was different, I just don't have good notes from past experience to rely on so I was wondering if you had directly measured 440's from both eras to see what you got.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818228
09/30/11 04:39 PM
09/30/11 04:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,069
U.S.S.A.
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I had a 67 440 HP , can't remember what happened to the pistons from it, and I never paid attention to that stuff then. I recently took apart a 68 350HP 440 , it was std bore with original pistons. I measured them ... still have them ... they are 2.030.
Advertised compression changed again in 70, or maybe it was 71 , compression on the HP 440 went down to 9.7 , pistons Ch ??? The .090 seems to cover enough years so the aftermarket stuck with it, there was probably a 2.030 piston available when the 68-69 engine was still newish, I imagine a factory oversize part was available then.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#818229
09/30/11 06:19 PM
09/30/11 06:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 915
S.W. PA
6PACMAC
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 915
S.W. PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you determined the root cause of the valve failure?
yeah the valve broke... not sure why yet. I'll have the shop check it out when they fix the one seat. F'ing sux I can tell ya that.
Was it a stock, factory, 2 piece exhaust valve? If it was, those break real easy. Just drop one and see. Floating the valves with stock tired valve springs will do it also. It just takes a little smack from the pistons.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818230
10/01/11 10:07 AM
10/01/11 10:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
I had a 67 440 HP , can't remember what happened to the pistons from it, and I never paid attention to that stuff then.
exactly! It's only been in recent years that I started to realize my mistake in not taking measurements and notes when I had the chance. These days I lay my eyes on so few factory 440's that I'm really starting to lament the sins of the past. I do still have one standard 67 440 sitting between the fenders of a NYer out in the field, I bought the car with 100k on it so I suspect the engine is factory. I'll be sure to measure and record it one day.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818231
10/02/11 09:03 PM
10/02/11 09:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
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67 piston - 2.00" ish
68/69 - 2.034"
Last edited by BSB67; 10/02/11 09:06 PM.
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as pistons tend to set down in the hole.