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440 Rebuild Advice
#818179
09/30/10 12:20 AM
09/30/10 12:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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I am about to carry out one of my bucket list items, which is to rebuild an engine myself. The engine in question is the original 440 engine out of my 69 Chrysler 300. I think I would probably be very happy with the performance if I just rebuild it to stock specs, but I want to make sure I give it the right amount of thought before I dive in.
I will not be taking this car to the track or anything, just tooling around, to work, to the grocery store, maybe take some trips. I will be running dual exhaust, most likely through the factory non-HP exhaust manifolds. I have a 3.23:1 open rear, and unless one falls into my lap I don't plan on replacing it with a sure grip. I am not planning on doing anything fancy with the heads, just reconditioning the factory 906s, maybe getting hardened valve seats put in, and installing springs to match whatever cam I decide to put in. Given all these factors, I don't see a need to go all out on horsepower and spend $10,000 on a rebuild, but I could easily be talked into whatever upgrades are necessary to raise the horsepower from the factory 350 to 400 or so.
The real questions for me are what pistons and camshaft I decide to use. I feel like I could pick a camshaft and end up with something that will make me happy, but the more I look into pistons, the more confused I get. Some of my questions are:
1. Cast, forged, or hypereutectic?
2. Flattop, dish, dome, or stepped with a quench pad (like the Keith Black KB184)? I guess these need to be selected with some thought as to which is the best match for the combustion chamber shape of the 906 heads.
3. Should I be looking at one of those engine rebuild kits that contain pistons, bearings, gaskets, etc., everything for a short block rebuild (except the camshaft)?
4. What compression ratio should I be shooting for? According to the literature, my 69 440 had 10.1:1 compression. It will ping if I use regular or midgrade fuel - it needs premium, which is okay with me, I just don't want to have to use octane booster. I've read up a little on quench, and it looks like you can have higher compression ratios and still be able to run on pump gas if you have tight quench, but this may not be possible to achieve if I use open chamber 906 heads. But maybe I don't care about quench. When I got the car it had over 100,000 miles on it, it was definitely a tired engine, and it still felt plenty strong to me, so maybe I should be looking for factory replacement type pistons, which I think were flattops.
4. Maybe I should be shooting for a specific horsepower, maybe that's the right way to go about picking parts. Does anybody know of any software that you can use that's like a "virtual dyno" where you can play around with the specs and see your horsepower and torque curves?
I would appreciate any advice from anyone with relevant experience on this.
Thanks!
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RapidRobert]
#818184
09/30/10 09:33 AM
09/30/10 09:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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1. Cast, forged, or hypereutectic?
For you, whatever you can get the cheapest that nets you a decent 9.5:1 (or better)
2. Flattop, dish, dome, or stepped with a quench pad (like the Keith Black KB184)? I guess these need to be selected with some thought as to which is the best match for the combustion chamber shape of the 906 heads.
For your application quence is not that important.
3. Should I be looking at one of those engine rebuild kits that contain pistons, bearings, gaskets, etc., everything for a short block rebuild (except the camshaft)?
Yes Summit, Jegs and PAW have good kits that include cam shafts.
4. What compression ratio should I be shooting for? According to the literature, my 69 440 had 10.1:1 compression. It will ping if I use regular or midgrade fuel - it needs premium, which is okay with me, I just don't want to have to use octane booster. I've read up a little on quench, and it looks like you can have higher compression ratios and still be able to run on pump gas if you have tight quench, but this may not be possible to achieve if I use open chamber 906 heads. But maybe I don't care about quench. When I got the car it had over 100,000 miles on it, it was definitely a tired engine, and it still felt plenty strong to me, so maybe I should be looking for factory replacement type pistons, which I think were flattops.
I try and stay between 9:1 and 10:1
4. Maybe I should be shooting for a specific horsepower, maybe that's the right way to go about picking parts. Does anybody know of any software that you can use that's like a "virtual dyno" where you can play around with the specs and see your horsepower and torque curves?
Not really needed for your application. A stockish rebuild with a upgrade in camshaft, inatke and carb will get you were you want to be.
If it were me I'd have the block checked. If you need a bore get one then have it decked. I'd call one of those places above and order their rebuild kit. Add the upgraded camshaft Like the Summit 488, look online for a used dual plane intake, 750 holley (vacuum or mech), Electronic Ing (get the curve kit too), 2200 stall and you should be good to go.
No need to spend a ton of money.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#818186
09/30/10 08:18 PM
09/30/10 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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I found a company called Aerohead that sells reconditioned cast iron heads with new valves, springs, etc., 3 angle valve job, for about $600, and they apparently have 915 heads. If I did want to build it so I get the maximum benefits from the quench effect, if I went with 915s, is there a piston that I could use that would not require a lot of custom machine work to get good quench? If I stick with my 906s, is there a piston that would give me some of the benefits of quench without spending a lot of money?
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RapidRobert]
#818188
10/09/10 03:37 PM
10/09/10 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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Keep in mind that this build is for a C-body convertible that I will never take to the strip and will probably not ever even take the rpms above 4500, or whatever the valve body in the transmission lets it get up to if I floor it from a dead stop before it shifts. I will not replace the torque converter. I will probably continue to run the stock exhaust manifolds with duals, although I may put Hedman shorty headers on it at some point or HP exhaust manifolds if I can find a pair. I have a 3.23 open rear, no plans to go looking for a sure-grip, but if one fell into my lap I would install it. There is a chance I may even put the 2.90 chunk back in if I end up doing more highway driving, but that's a long shot. I have power brakes, power steering, and plans to get the A/C working some day (top down with the A/C blasting! That's America!).
Having said all that, I've been doing a lot of reading of other posts and checking stuff out on other web sites, and this is what I think: I think it is really sad to put any money into an engine rebuild, no matter what the engine will end up being used for, and not think about quench. There's nothing bad about quench, no tradeoffs that I can see, and there's no reason not to incorporate quench design considerations into any engine that is being rebuilt, unless you are a total "factory restoration" guy.
To achieve quench, it seems like there are two ways to go: flattop pistons with closed-chambered heads, or quench dome pistons with open-chambered heads.
If money is not an issue, then it seems like a no-brainer to go with aftermarket aluminum closed-chambered heads and flattop pistons . You pick the right pistons with the right height, such as a KB237, you make sure your block is square and has the right deck height, you pick the right head gasket, and you're there. You can take the compression ratio up to about 10:1 and if you have the right camshaft with the appropriate duration you will probably be able to run on premium pump gas. Let's call this "Option One."
If money is an issue (which it is), and you don't already own a good set of 915 closed-chambered heads, then you buy a set of quench dome pistons, such as a KB184, and you use your stock 906, 346, or 452 open-chambered heads with a basic valve job. Let's call this "Option Two."
The problem with Option Two is what I've read in this post and others about the machine work that you may have to do to the open area of the combustion chambers in the heads, or to the quench dome of the piston, or both, so that you have the right gap between the quench dome of the piston and the open area of the combustion chamber to achieve quench. If a lot of machine work has to be done to the heads and/or the quench dome of the piston, then Option Two can get expensive. The cost difference between a basic valve job on a stock steel open-chambered head to the cost of brand new 440 Source aluminum heads is anywhere between $600 and $800, depending on whether you get hardened valve seats installed, which would probably only be an issue if you have 906 heads (which I have). That's with reusing the original valves. So I could see Option Two becoming almost as expensive as Option One if you are doing a lot of machine work to tailor the pistons to the heads to get good quench. And you don't get the new, bigger valves and better flow that comes out of the box with the aftermarket aluminum heads.
The only way that Option Two makes sense is if you can just slap in the KB184 pistons, throw on the heads, and even with the variability in quench area that you might end up with, it's good enough and better than stock.
I've seen other posts where people have described mixing and matching the pistons in the cylinders and finding the best quench for their particular combination of pistons, rods, block, and heads, without doing any machining to the pistons and/or heads. You may or may not get lucky doing this, depending on how the factory built the parts that you are using.
So I guess my point is, if you just get basic machine work done to the block and heads to clean them up and throw in a set of KB184s (Option Two), how well can you expect that to work out?
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818191
10/10/10 05:50 AM
10/10/10 05:50 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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As mentioned, you may be able to just freshen up the stock short block, but I am guessing the heads will need alot of work, usually the valve guides will be pretty worn, and the exhaust seats sunk from running unleaded fuel?
Quench engines are really good to prevent detonation, and they are really easy to build if you are using a closed chamber head and flat top pistons. Using an open chamber head, and quench dome pistons like the KB pistons can be a pain to setup. I built a 360 with the KB quench pistons, and found the cylinder head deck to flat part of the chamber was too deep and also different depths on each head, so I had one head milled 0.040" and the other 0.050", along with milling the intake manifold side of the heads. Then I had to cc and equalize each chamber. Then the block was not exactly square, so the block needed to be milled so all the pistons sat right at 0.002 below deck (not including the 0.050" tall quench dish.) In mocking all this up, the ridge in the cylinder chamber that goes partway around the intake valve was too close to the quench pad, so the quench pad had to be slightly clearanced to work with the stock heads. This was alot of trouble and extra machining just to get a small amount of quench (the quench pad is fairly small in area compared to using a closed chamber head and flat top piston.)
Between the cost of rebuilding the stock heads, and the extra machine work to get quench out of them, your really better off to just get new aluminum heads unless you have the use the original heads for some other reason.
Some pros of using new heads:
Closed chamber design / easy to build quench
Cooler chambers less prone to detonation
No exhaust crossover, cooler intake, less chance of boiling the fuel in the carb.
Better flowing, possable 50+ HP gain just by changing from stock heads.
Stainless valves and hardened seats for performance and durability / compatability with unleaded fuels.
Head come with new performance valve springs / retainers / locks / seals.
Aluminum heads are easier to repair if damaged by engine failure.
Quench engine can be built with flat top pistons, there is a larger selection of off the shelf flat top pistons which should equate to lower cost for the pistons.
Cons:
Cost (actually very affordable in comparsion as noted above.)
Do not look 100% stock
Angled plugs of edelbrocks don't clear some headers/manifilds
Not as thermally efficent as iron heads (iron heads contain more heat, but are also more prone to detonation.)
Most aluminum head require purchase of reduced wrench size head bolt package adding to cost ($80 for ARP kit, $45 for 440 source kit.)
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 451Mopar]
#818192
10/11/10 01:20 AM
10/11/10 01:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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That's kind of where I'm at, that if you care about quench, and you don't have a set of 915 heads to start with, you might as well buy the 440 Source aluminum heads and go with flat top pistons. It might cost a little bit more, but not a whole lot, considering the significant amount of machine work that will be required to obtain quench with stock open-chambered cast iron heads, and for that little bit more, you gain better performance. It also makes the rebuild a lot simpler, which suits me.
As far as the comment about contacting Hensley Racing, which happens to be about a 20 minute drive from my house, all I can say is . . . duh! I never even thought about it. I should do that. Not to talk myself out of it ahead of time, but I kind of picture them as a place to go when you want to drop $10K on an engine rebuild, whereas I want to drop as close to $0K as possible. (Although that's kind of out of the question now that I've kind of decided to buy aluminum heads). I checked their web site and they don't list hours of operation, so I guess I will just try to give them a call when I have a chance.
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 451Mopar]
#818194
10/30/10 01:09 AM
10/30/10 01:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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I finally got around to calling Hensley Racing and talking to Ken Hensley. We had an interesting discussion for about a half hour. I have to say I was a little intimidated talking to a guy who has been building mopar engines since I was a little kid.
When we talked about quench, his perspective was that quench was just a different way to achieve a desired compression ratio. The way he described it, if you wanted to get really high compression, you could, for example, use a stepped piston, like a Keith Black KB184, which leaves plenty of room on the low side of the piston for the valves, or use a flattop piston with valve reliefs. If you used stepped pistons, you could use closed chamber heads, or go to the trouble of machining the high sides of the pistons and/or the heads to get quench if you went with open chamber heads. He said that he thought you might actually lose power with closed chamber heads and a quench design because of valve shrouding, and the better flow of an open chamber head would result in greater power. He was perfectly open to doing it either way, he was just pointing out what he had learned from experience (of which he has plenty and I have none).
He invited me to come in and see his shop, and I will definitely do that soon (I was going to do it today but didn't have time). He seemed a little embarrassed when I told him how lucky I am to have a world class mopar engine guy almost literally in my back yard, which I think speaks well of him.
I'll keep you posted on my visit when it happens.
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: polkat]
#818196
10/30/10 10:14 AM
10/30/10 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
"If you used stepped pistons, you could use closed chamber heads, or go to the trouble of machining the high sides of the pistons and/or the heads to get quench if you went with open chamber heads."
Hummm...this sounds backwards to me. I'd use stepped pistons with open chambers and flat tops with closed chambers....right?
No, you could do it that way also if your piston choices were very limited and that was all that was available, fortunately for a 440 that is not the case.
I'm just a little confused on his valve shrouding comment considering if you achieve optimum quench there isn't going to be anything needing to really be burned in that part of the chamber? just thinking out loud ....
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#818199
10/30/10 12:36 PM
10/30/10 12:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,152
Central NC
gch
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,152
Central NC
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How many miles on your 440? Have you done a compression and leakdown test?
You can do this so many different ways it is easy to get confused.
If your shortblock is sound swap heads and maybe a cam and intake.
Re-ring and bearing yours with above mods.
Full blown rebuild.
I would examine your shortblock carefully and see if you can reuse it since $$ is a factor.
On piston choice for what you are doing,cast is fine,hyper is a good upgrade for not much more money.
Quench?Fine if you got it,fine if you don't.Will it let you run a higher compression on a lower octane?Yes.Is it critical for your build?Not really.A true 9.0-1 motor will run fine on 89 octane without it.Recurve your distributor for best results.
Heads??Alum are great.Run higher compression on less octane and generally flow much better than stock for extra power.Single best upgrade to any street motor IMO.
OR you can pick up a set of used 452's(hard seats)on here with some port work already done for less than you can rebuild yours.You can also mill them for more compression if needed.
Take any assembled head you buy to a mochinist to have them checked out prior to running.Save lots of headache this way.
Exhaust,HP manifolds for c bodies are plentifull and reasonable.Hedman shorties and a mini starter are a good no hassle swap.Both will make more power than lo-po logs.
Intake,a used performer or ch4b is affordable and readily available.
Carb,for what you are doing 600-650cfm is plenty and will be very responsive in your operating range.I have better luck with holleys.A thermoquad would be the s**t.
Cam,something short duration(210-215@.050)and you will all the low end torque for cruising and acceleration with tall gears.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.Get a plan before you start and match everything together.
If you don't have electronic ignition,GET IT.
Ken is a great guy and won't sell you something you don't need.Havent talked to him in a while.He is as honest as they come.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818200
10/30/10 12:43 PM
10/30/10 12:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
If he can get away with it re-use the stock pistons and home hone the block, re-ring/bearing it and go. 
how did that work out for you on the last one ? 
Or the one before that. 
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818201
10/30/10 01:15 PM
10/30/10 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If he can get away with it re-use the stock pistons and home hone the block, re-ring/bearing it and go.
how did that work out for you on the last one ?
Or the one before that.
i didn't do the last one. And it broke a valve. The pistons, walls, crank and all still look brand new.. except the one w/ a hole in it.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818203
10/30/10 04:08 PM
10/30/10 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Have you determined the root cause of the valve failure?
yeah the valve broke... not sure why yet. I'll have the shop check it out when they fix the one seat. F'ing sux I can tell ya that.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#818205
10/31/10 12:18 PM
10/31/10 12:18 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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i go the short headers and big pipes the short dur/high lift cam ch4 and 650 carb and roll with the stock low stall Tc and the 3.23 gears you not raceing the c-body just need some torque to get rolling I am happy to have a stock 440 and not need the re-ring or rebuild i shaved 40 foot of motorhome,added the FMVB,3.91sg,center dump mannys,650 spredbore holley/stock intake in my 85 truck I will upgrade a cam to work with the low CR and cheap gas,like a whiplash cam with early intake closeing to build cyl pressure and not kill torque like said,more than one way to skin that cat
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#818206
10/31/10 02:54 PM
10/31/10 02:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
i go the short headers and big pipes
the short dur/high lift cam
ch4 and 650 carb and roll with the stock low stall Tc and the 3.23 gears
you not raceing the c-body just need some torque to get rolling
I am happy to have a stock 440 and not need the re-ring or rebuild
i shaved 40 foot of motorhome,added the FMVB,3.91sg,center dump mannys,650 spredbore holley/stock intake in my 85 truck
I will upgrade a cam to work with the low CR and cheap gas,like a whiplash cam with early intake closeing to build cyl pressure and not kill torque
like said,more than one way to skin that cat
After reading the whole thing, I agree with the last post.
Install Cam,
freshen/ replace heads,
intake and good carb,
decent ignition timing mods.
A whole botom end go-thru is probably redundant for this build.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RemCharger]
#818207
11/12/10 12:54 PM
11/12/10 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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I think I am going for the bottom end rebuild no matter what, so that is a moot point. The question is, while doing a bottom end rebuild, should I be incorporating quench, and if the answer to that is yes, then the question of what to do about the heads has to be answered. Based on the costs of reworking my open chambered heads and combining them with a quench dome style piston to get quench, it's probably about the same costs as the Stealth heads or maybe more, so the Stealth heads seem like the right choice.
However, this is all based on the fact that I can't get a set of cast iron closed chambered heads, fully rebuilt, for much less than the Stealth heads. This may not be true; I have been poking around a little, and it seems like I may be able to get a set of the older 516 closed chambered heads for a more reasonable price.
Here's the question: what about a quench engine using rebuilt 516s with the larger size exhaust valves installed? If I built a quench engine with these, with no porting or bowl blending or significant milling, versus a non-quench engine with essentially stock replacement pistons and my rebuilt 906s heads, which combination would produce more power? Assume the same intake and exhaust with a mild one or two steps up from stock cam.
To sum up, the choices are:
1. Quench engine with flattop pistons using 516 heads unmodified except for upgrading the exhaust valves to 1.74 in, or
2. Non-quench engine using stock replacement-shape pistons with freshened 906 heads to give the same compression ratio as what it had when it came off the assembly line.
Would there be a noticeable power difference between the two, and if so, which would be better? (This is like a "quench vs. flow" death match!)
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 4BBodies]
#818211
11/12/10 05:08 PM
11/12/10 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
I agree with 2boltmain, this guy doesn't need anything overly fancy or pricey. It is possible to rebuild an engine correctly without spending a fortune. Have the basic machine work done, get a decent cam (like the Summit mentioned above) and put it together. It's a 440 for Chr$*^s sake, it will pull with one spark plug wire unhooked!
What is your DEFINITION of CORRECTLY ???
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
He wants more HP and he wants to keep many of the factory installed parts , meaning NO HEADERS .. you aren't going to do that by lowering the compression then putting in a bigger cam , at least not easily.
A quench build with open chambers heads is expensive and not what everyone really needs. I just finished up one, it's a lot of work, if he can find a decent set of 915's he'll be dollars ahead or throw some alum heads on it and can get away with the higher compression.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818212
11/12/10 06:48 PM
11/12/10 06:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,791
Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,791
Holland MI Ottawa
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There are tons of posts on moparts of smog compression 360s 440s and 400s running in the 13s and 12s. If thats the case than the OP should buy the piston with the lower compression height that is in his budget. There always remains the chance his bores are still within spec and in that case the oem pistons are reusable. Cam it like a big ole motorhome with a true dual exh and traditional turbo mufflers and call it good.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818213
11/12/10 09:12 PM
11/12/10 09:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I think I am going for the bottom end rebuild no matter what, so that is a moot point. The question is, while doing a bottom end rebuild, should I be incorporating quench, and if the answer to that is yes, then the question of what to do about the heads has to be answered. Based on the costs of reworking my open chambered heads and combining them with a quench dome style piston to get quench, it's probably about the same costs as the Stealth heads or maybe more, so the Stealth heads seem like the right choice.
However, this is all based on the fact that I can't get a set of cast iron closed chambered heads, fully rebuilt, for much less than the Stealth heads. This may not be true; I have been poking around a little, and it seems like I may be able to get a set of the older 516 closed chambered heads for a more reasonable price.
Here's the question: what about a quench engine using rebuilt 516s with the larger size exhaust valves installed? If I built a quench engine with these, with no porting or bowl blending or significant milling, versus a non-quench engine with essentially stock replacement pistons and my rebuilt 906s heads, which combination would produce more power? Assume the same intake and exhaust with a mild one or two steps up from stock cam.
To sum up, the choices are:
1. Quench engine with flattop pistons using 516 heads unmodified except for upgrading the exhaust valves to 1.74 in, or
2. Non-quench engine using stock replacement-shape pistons with freshened 906 heads to give the same compression ratio as what it had when it came off the assembly line.
Would there be a noticeable power difference between the two, and if so, which would be better? (This is like a "quench vs. flow" death match!)
Building a flat top piston quench motor for use with 516 or 915 will result in the CR to high for pump gas.
If you're set on the short block rebuild, my opinion is you build a zero deck (or close)flat top piston motor. Then you have some meaningful options. Go non-quench/906 for a low/mid 9s CR, or quench with Stealths or Edelbrocks with 10 CR. You can do this easy enough, you just need to keep an eye on the final combustion chamber volume, valve relief volume, and gasket thickness.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818214
11/12/10 11:35 PM
11/12/10 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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Why would the CR be too high for pump gas on a quench motor built with 915s or 516s, but not too high for pump gas on a quench motor built with Stealth or Edelbrock heads?
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#818216
11/12/10 11:49 PM
11/12/10 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Here's a real world big block street build I just went through Big Block Build Mine is a little more exotic than yours due to the unique induction setup, but underneath it's just a mild big block pump gas street build. It would likely make as much or more power with a good single 4 dual plane intake and a good 4 barrel carb. Our goals were similar, mild pump gas low maintenance BB build with a little extra kick. I went with some optional expensive parts in the name of durability, but you could make due with less expensive parts and get to the same numbers with ease. - 426 Cubic inches
- Stock stroke crank
- Stock rods rebushed and resized
- Custom forged Diamond pistons resulting in a true 9.5:1 compression
- Stock #577 closed chamber heads with bigger valves and pocket porting
- Hydraulic Roller Cam
- Stock Oil Pan & Pickup
- Will Run Stock Exhaust Manifolds
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818217
11/13/10 12:00 AM
11/13/10 12:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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As said the alum wicks away heat faster so will support more CR wo pinging and Quench will support more CR wo pinging (but for different reasons. I'd go alum + quench & mill the pistons (not the deck under the quench flat) to get the SCR where you want it & it depends on your cam choice. Yes it gets complicated/timeconsuming/expensive to get it spot on & to get up & running & to avoid long term down time (very common mistake) there is a very good case for a fast rebuild & get you some seat time then you can take your time w a much better eng coming together hidden in your garage & you might be able to take some bets when it's done/in as your buddies wont know what hit em
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818218
11/13/10 10:45 AM
11/13/10 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
340duster340
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
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because its a driver, dont go nuts, you'll spend money on parts you dont need. do a semi-stock rebuild, mild cam, rebuild the stock heads, alum intake...keep it simple. i would get the hi-po manifolds only because you'll already have your old ones unbolted and its a simple upgrade that will make a difference.
1966 Dart GT
...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 340duster340]
#818219
11/13/10 03:48 PM
11/13/10 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
landon1
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
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personally, i went cheap, bang for the buck with mine. maybe had 1800 in the whole build - $1200 for all the machine work, new pistons (installed on rods), bearings, gaskets, etc. $400 for the cam and lifters, timing chain, assembly lube, break in lube, triple gauge kit, etc. then maybe $200 for new radiator, heater, and fuel hoses, battery cables, generic gold zinc 7 qt oil pan and pickup(stock was all beat up and warped), milodon windage tray (didn't use - rods would scrape the tray, so that was a waste of money - not sure why the clearance issues), coolant and a couple cases of VR1 10-30. couldn't be happier for what i got out of the build comparted to what i put into it. probably 6 years ago i ordered aerohead reconditioned heads and used those. kept the 69 4bbl intake i had on it with a 650 DP, Comp XE268 cam/lifters, hedman 1.75/3" headers with summit 2.5" exhaust, and Procomp HEI distributor with accel coil, wires, and plugs. i do have to feed it premium, but it doesn't really bother me. and for a CR of ~9:1 and pretty simple, basic, add-ons i'm pretty happy. i wasn't overly concerned with high horsepower, just sticking close to stock, since my car's not a race car, just a cruiser, but i do like to mash the accelerator. but, i can still light up the tires when already rolling about 30 mph or so with highway gears 
'71 Satellite Sebring 440
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818220
09/30/11 10:44 AM
09/30/11 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
sounds like you're referring to the Speed Pro 2266 (at .090) and the 2355 (at .020), am I right? I always thought these were supposed to be the stock replacements for the standard 440 piston from '66 - '71 and for the "six pack" piston, respectively. Is that incorrect?
About 8 years ago I did a basic rebuild on a 440 in a '73 NYer and my intentions were similar to what you're describing- I just wanted a good street engine that would move that heavy b@stard around in traffic using the stock torque converter and 3.23 gears. Here's the details on the engine: bored .030 with the Speed Pro 2355 pistons, rebuilt 452 heads (no port work just valve seats, guides, & springs etc.), steel shim .020 head gaskets, I bought the Summit rebuild kit and the small Summit BB cam (more on that in a minute), had to have the crank turned .010 due to some scoring, plus consider all the usual stuff like timing chain etc etc etc. Used the stock iron intake, rebuilt Thermoquad, stock electronic ignition, stock iron log manifolds, 2.5" dual exhaust, P235/15 tires so that's about a 29" tire. All together with the machine work and parts I figure I spent about $2500 on the engine with me doing all the wrench work.
The thing was an unholy bit©h to tune out the spark knock, I had two distributors that I kept rotating as I would bring one down in the basement to play with the advance curve while running the other. Never could make it happy.... the engine wanted to make power but on premium pump gas I had to choose between spark knock or no balls. I drove it about a year mostly in no balls mode and then took the car off the road, never got back to it. Today that engine is sitting on a stand in the garage. My theory was that the real problem was that the cam was too small, with that combo the dynamic compression was well over 8:1 and it just didn't work. I was thinking at the time that I wanted to build a lot of cylinder pressure with a small cam to move the beast off the line but it ended up being a learning experience. Eventually I'll put a bigger cam in that engine and re-install it into a lighter car with a stall converter and it should be happier.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818221
09/30/11 12:53 PM
09/30/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
sounds like you're referring to the Speed Pro 2266 (at .090) and the 2355 (at .020), am I right? I always thought these were supposed to be the stock replacements for the standard 440 piston from '66 - '71 and for the "six pack" piston, respectively. Is that incorrect?
The 68-69 440 had a piston with a 2.030ish CH , they are about .040 - .050 in the hole . the exact numbers escape me but these are pretty close .
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818223
09/30/11 01:10 PM
09/30/11 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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also, I pulled up my cheat sheet for reference and according to my notes the Speed Pro 2295 piston has a 2.029 CH, wouldn't that pretty much be the replacement for the ones you described?
EDIT: never mind, I just looked it up and Jeg's says it is a pop-up with a 12.1 cc dome. Definitely not a stock replacement for the standard 440 if that is true! Made an amendment to my notes.
further interesting info from my cheat sheet- I've measured 72-78 440's at 0.155 in the hole, which seems to correspond to the Speed Pro #2388 which has a 1.926 CH. Of course, this yields a stupid low CR for a naturally aspirated application but just info worth noting...
Last edited by dem440c; 09/30/11 01:18 PM.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818224
09/30/11 01:27 PM
09/30/11 01:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
ok, yeah, 2.030 would be about .050 in the hole. So with open heads at a fudge number 88 cc you're looking at 9.6:1 SCR although with closed chamber at a fudge number 80 cc the SCR is more like 10.3:1 which seems off to me. Until very recently I've never been diligent about measuring and recording stock piston depth, much to my lament, but I've had a few 66-67 440's in factory condition and they ran happily on mid grade pump gas so I kinda doubt they were that high on the CR. Do you know what the deal is with that? As far as I could tell, the pistons were the same from 67 to 68 but have you measured otherwise?
The heads changed in 68 to an open chamber so they needed a piston with a taller CH to bring the compression back up. 906 normal is more like 90 and the 915 have to be bigger than 80 , the set I have are 81 and have been cut .
Chrysler advertised compression ratios were higher than actual.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818226
09/30/11 02:08 PM
09/30/11 02:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
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Quote:
Keep in mind that this build is for a C-body convertible that I will never take to the strip and will probably not ever even take the rpms above 4500,
The answer is right there (4500 RPM) power brakes,
power steering, A/C, 2.9 - 3.2 rear end (open)
Sounds like a stock rebuild is all you need. Do
the leak down on every cylinder to make sure
whats going on before the rip down.
Stock intake, stock exaust will do just fine.
No need to put on 440 source heads or any other
garbage from China. A good rering, bearings,
gaskets, oil pump, timing chain, maybe a cam, and
your 8 to 1 440 will make all the TQ that your
one wheel wonder can take.
DYI & KIS !!! Do it yourself & keep it simple !!!!
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818227
09/30/11 04:36 PM
09/30/11 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
ok, yeah, 2.030 would be about .050 in the hole. So with open heads at a fudge number 88 cc you're looking at 9.6:1 SCR although with closed chamber at a fudge number 80 cc the SCR is more like 10.3:1 which seems off to me. Until very recently I've never been diligent about measuring and recording stock piston depth, much to my lament, but I've had a few 66-67 440's in factory condition and they ran happily on mid grade pump gas so I kinda doubt they were that high on the CR. Do you know what the deal is with that? As far as I could tell, the pistons were the same from 67 to 68 but have you measured otherwise?
The heads changed in 68 to an open chamber so they needed a piston with a taller CH to bring the compression back up. 906 normal is more like 90 and the 915 have to be bigger than 80 , the set I have are 81 and have been cut .
Chrysler advertised compression ratios were higher than actual.
sure, I know that's what they said about the advertised SCR staying the same after going bigger on the head volume, which would imply they changed pistons in 68... I just don't recall seeing it add up that way. It goes back to before I started keeping better notes but it always seemed to me that the 66-71 440's all had the same piston and that it was about .090 in the hole, which would correspond to the 2266 piston. I figured they just lied about the compression since they tended to do that sort of thing anyway. With a closed chamber head and .020 gaskets this is around 9.5:1 SCR. I also understood that this was the reason they created the "Six Pack" piston, to regain the lost compression with the open heads for the true performance applications. Just my interpretation mind you, I'm willing to be wrong ;D
Recently I was playing with a 65 413 and the uncut 516 heads came out at 80 cc and the pistons were .090 in the hole. I added it to my new notekeeping system for posterity, and this also corresponded to what I recall about the 66-71 440 pistons and closed chamber heads. Yeah, it's a fudge, as I recall I've seen everything from 78ish to 82ish on these. Open chamber heads I recall seeing a range of 88ish to 91ish but I usually use 88 as my fudge number for all open chamber heads. In the end of course there seemed to be a ton of variability in the factory's work so you have to measure each set firsthand when you're planning and building your engine but for generalization purposes I use the fudge numbers.
SO yeah, I understand that they advertised the same SCR in 67 and 68 and yet the volume got bigger which would imply that the piston was different, I just don't have good notes from past experience to rely on so I was wondering if you had directly measured 440's from both eras to see what you got.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818228
09/30/11 04:39 PM
09/30/11 04:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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I had a 67 440 HP , can't remember what happened to the pistons from it, and I never paid attention to that stuff then. I recently took apart a 68 350HP 440 , it was std bore with original pistons. I measured them ... still have them ... they are 2.030.
Advertised compression changed again in 70, or maybe it was 71 , compression on the HP 440 went down to 9.7 , pistons Ch ??? The .090 seems to cover enough years so the aftermarket stuck with it, there was probably a 2.030 piston available when the 68-69 engine was still newish, I imagine a factory oversize part was available then.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#818229
09/30/11 06:19 PM
09/30/11 06:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 915
S.W. PA
6PACMAC
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 915
S.W. PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you determined the root cause of the valve failure?
yeah the valve broke... not sure why yet. I'll have the shop check it out when they fix the one seat. F'ing sux I can tell ya that.
Was it a stock, factory, 2 piece exhaust valve? If it was, those break real easy. Just drop one and see. Floating the valves with stock tired valve springs will do it also. It just takes a little smack from the pistons.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818230
10/01/11 10:07 AM
10/01/11 10:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
dem440c
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,381
Youngsville, NC
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Quote:
I had a 67 440 HP , can't remember what happened to the pistons from it, and I never paid attention to that stuff then.
exactly! It's only been in recent years that I started to realize my mistake in not taking measurements and notes when I had the chance. These days I lay my eyes on so few factory 440's that I'm really starting to lament the sins of the past. I do still have one standard 67 440 sitting between the fenders of a NYer out in the field, I bought the car with 100k on it so I suspect the engine is factory. I'll be sure to measure and record it one day.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: dem440c]
#818231
10/02/11 09:03 PM
10/02/11 09:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
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67 piston - 2.00" ish
68/69 - 2.034"
Last edited by BSB67; 10/02/11 09:06 PM.
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Do a quench build. I would suggest picking up a used edelbrock ch4b intake. It's a decent upgrade over stock yet still looks like a stock intake and does well for performance and fuel mileage/driveability. 
about their prices, but they do excellent work. I've never been less than very satisfied with every dealing I've had with them. 
as pistons tend to set down in the hole.