#'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
#781761
08/23/10 07:02 PM
08/23/10 07:02 PM
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Eastern shore, New England
roadrunner69s
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In considering the purchase of a supposed matching number drivetrain on a nice "driver" '69 Coronet RT 4 speed. The gap between engine top half assembly date (3-13-69) vs car build date (in June) seems a bit wide too me. Over the years I've heard the thumbrule of "about 30 days." From my own experiences that has worked very well for regular passenger cars. In the case of 6 pack and hemi cars I know the gaps can be many months. But this is a fairly simple 440HP going into a passenger car.
I briefly looked at this car on my way to Carlisle in July so I didn't get it up on a lift or check it out in great detail. I did not record the exact build date but did note it was in June. From the passenger wheel well I could make out most of the VIN# on the engine. Also noted that the intake manifold had been replaced (correct casting but dated 4-17-67). Didn't make note about other engine castings, carb, etc. The "055" radiator was replaced as well. Just a fender tag on this one, no B/S or W/S.
Bottom line though, can the engine assembly date be 2-1/2 to 3 months out on this car and still possibly be correct? Has anyone ever seen a standard 440-4v engine built that far ahead of the car? On the dozens if not hundreds of 383/440-4v I've glanced at over the years at shows and other places, I can honestly say I'm not aware of any assembled this far apart. Though I do recall owning a green 69RR in the early 1990's that had an issue with engine date vs. SPD that didn't make sense to me at the time.
thanks
RR69S
Last edited by roadrunner69s; 08/23/10 11:49 PM.
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: ademon]
#781763
08/23/10 07:54 PM
08/23/10 07:54 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Yes it can, my 340 was built a little over 4 months before the SPD of my demon. eng 11/16/70 car built 4/02/71.
For your car I don't see that as an issue considering the HP wars were grinding to a halt thatnks to the insurance indusrty but for the car above , a 69, I see that as a huge red flag.
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: roadrunner69s]
#781765
08/23/10 10:00 PM
08/23/10 10:00 PM
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Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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Seven months is the longest gap I have verified between an engine's assembly and it's installation. Then there were another 5 months between casting and assembly.
I do not agree with the oft-quoted 30 day window between assembly and installation. While there is probably an average span, there is no particular rule and can vary enormously.
The items that dress the engine out for installation (carb, dist, alt, etc) are a different story. They are much more often (by 70 model year anyway) within the 30 day window.
If everything else checks out as authentic, then I would have no concerns at all about the gap between the engine's assembly and the car's build date.
Master, again and still
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: Alaskan_TA]
#781768
08/23/10 10:11 PM
08/23/10 10:11 PM
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roadrunner69s
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Thanks DaveRS23.
As far as build dates, all I can go by is what's stamped on the fender tag and on the engine bosses. From my own experience I'd say in 80-90% of the cases, matching # cars from 68 and 69 have the engine assembly date within 2-6 weeks or so of the "estimated" build date. Certainly build dates can vary several days or more from that estimate. But more often that not they are pretty close. Without the original owner present who tracked the car from ordering to delivery there is no real way to know. This car only has a fender tag left so more due diligence is required. The radiator yoke and trunk lip numbers are correct to VIN/fender tag.
roadrunner69s
Last edited by roadrunner69s; 08/23/10 10:16 PM.
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: Alaskan_TA]
#781769
08/23/10 10:13 PM
08/23/10 10:13 PM
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Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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Quote:
There is no way to know the cars build date. 
Okay, I oversimplified by saying build date. Build date, scheduled production date, assembly schedule, certification date, whatever.
I was trying to keep the input simple and to the point. His spread in time is the right direction (engine assembly BEFORE the scheduled production date) and I feel that the spread itself is not out of whack. So, at this point, debating the SPD is academic. It could become important later, with more info, but isn't an issue now.
And again, I was trying to keep it simple and to the point! Too late now.
Master, again and still
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: roadrunner69s]
#781770
08/23/10 10:37 PM
08/23/10 10:37 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Thanks DaveRS23.
As far as build dates, all I can go by is what's stamped on the fender tag and on the engine bosses. From my own experience I'd say in 80-90% of the cases, matching # cars from 68 and 69 have the engine assembly date within 2-6 weeks or so of the "estimated" build date. Certainly build dates can vary several days or more from that estimate. But more often that not they are pretty close. Without the original owner present who tracked the car from ordering to delivery there is no real way to know. This car only has a fender tag left so more due diligence is required. The radiator yoke and trunk lip numbers are correct to VIN/fender tag.
roadrunner69s
My 2/10/69 SPD 1969 Superbee, built at Lynch Rd., original engine was assembled on 2/11/69. From many 69 High Performance cars, Hemis and A12's excluded, I have seen over the years the norm is DAYS between the SPD of the car and the engine assembly date.
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: JohnRR]
#781771
08/23/10 10:46 PM
08/23/10 10:46 PM
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Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA
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If a car was built a month ahead of it's SPD, then what? How far off is the 'accepted' window then? The numbers either match or they do not. If you get clear photos of the VIN stamps on the transmission & engine post them. Do not get hung up on 'allowable' dates since there is no way to know a specific 'build date' for the car. 
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: Alaskan_TA]
#781772
08/23/10 10:49 PM
08/23/10 10:49 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
If a car was built a month ahead of it's SPD, then what? How far off is the 'accepted' window then?
no clue , I'm just going off what I have seen , I have yet to see a car built prior to it's SPD , but I haven't seen the vast numbers you have , and my focus is on 69's and they don't have the added luxury of the monroney label on the door ... except for the daytonas ...
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: JohnRR]
#781773
08/23/10 11:40 PM
08/23/10 11:40 PM
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roadrunner69s
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With a photo of the engine/trans stampings could one conclusively determine that they are either authentic or restamped? Just asking. The fakes are no doubt getting better with time and I have not kept up with the current state of the art.
JohnRR: your story about the build dates on your 69 Bee restored my memory on my 69 RR. My car didn't have a too early engine date, but a too late one like yours. I knew it was odd but couldn't remember exactly how. It was stamped several days later than the SPD. I even queried GG on that at the time (1992) and he said it was entirely possible. That was my first HP Mopar.
roadrunner69s
Last edited by roadrunner69s; 08/23/10 11:46 PM.
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Re: #'s matching engine: build date vs. eng. assembly date?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#781779
08/30/10 03:32 PM
08/30/10 03:32 PM
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Texas
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Quote:
Quote:
There is no way to know the cars build date.
Okay, I oversimplified by saying build date. Build date, scheduled production date, assembly schedule, certification date, whatever.
I was trying to keep the input simple and to the point. His spread in time is the right direction (engine assembly BEFORE the scheduled production date) and I feel that the spread itself is not out of whack. So, at this point, debating the SPD is academic. It could become important later, with more info, but isn't an issue now.
And again, I was trying to keep it simple and to the point! Too late now.
Like Barry said, Trying to guess the actual assembly date is difficult, but because of the way they rolled down the line, I've found that the date stamped on the LCA is pretty accurate and usually matches (or is close) the date on the K-Frame (usually the most accurate)....and was one of the last things they installed before it rolled off the line, so in my opinion, those dates are pretty close to the last day of assembly.
Note that I said pretty close to...
In any event, it's much close than the SPD.
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