Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
#771265
08/11/10 11:59 AM
08/11/10 11:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 75 Illinois
ChrisDavis
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Posts: 75
Illinois
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It is not under the best of circumstances that I write this post. In 2007 I had Ray Barton build me a 528 for my ‘Cuda. To date it has 611 miles on it and no racing. I have changed the oil each year at about 200 mile increments. Recently it appears that I have a case of bearing failure. About the engine: It is the usual Ray Barton recipe of 528 cubes on a Mopar brand cast iron block, solid flat tappet cam (280*, 667”), Nascar lifters, Ray Barton rocker arms, aluminum heads, dual quad single plane, etc. It dyno’ed at 702 HP at near 7K RPM. I have it rev limited at 7K RPM as well. Here are my issues: Suddenly I lost oil pressure. It would always run about 60 Lbs. and now it is more like 20 Lbs. At about the same time it lost a couple hundred RPM off it’s idle. When I drained the oil it was black and looked like it had way more than 200 miles on it. Former oil changes where clean. There were some fine metal particles on the magnetic oil plug. When I cut the filter open I found a lot of gold colored metal in the pleats. This weekend I will be pulling the pan and bearing caps to see what might have failed. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should look for besides the obvious bearing damage? Does anyone have any ideas what might have happened and why this failure took place? Does anyone else have experience with Ray Barton engines and their quirks?
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ademon]
#771270
08/11/10 12:35 PM
08/11/10 12:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481 Chino Valley
RodStRace
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Do you have a teenage son? Sorry to hear your engine is not well. I'd be very tempted to pull it rather than just pull the pan and check bearings. A clean engine is a happy engine and all that stuff is inside. I would pull the dist. and check the gear. Brass shavings.....
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: RodStRace]
#771271
08/11/10 12:43 PM
08/11/10 12:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826 NY usa
540challenger
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Quote:
Do you have a teenage son?
Sorry to hear your engine is not well. I'd be very tempted to pull it rather than just pull the pan and check bearings. A clean engine is a happy engine and all that stuff is inside. I would pull the dist. and check the gear. Brass shavings.....
Pull the dist. Check the gear. I have had a few customers that the gear would wear. In turn it changes the speed since now the timing is change and with a lower idle the oil psi will drop. Sometimes does bronze gears last forever other times you almost want tpo change them every oil change. If it is the gear, in the future check the timing every so often when it starts to change the gear is wearing.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: 540challenger]
#771272
08/11/10 12:45 PM
08/11/10 12:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
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Can you post pictures of the wear surfaces and backs of the bearings? Rods and mains...
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771278
08/11/10 05:11 PM
08/11/10 05:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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Quote:
I will post pictures after I pull the bearing caps and inspect the bearings.
This is a flat tappet cam and the distributor does not use a bronze sacrificial gear. The distributor gear is what comes stock on an MSD Pro Billet.
There is no distributor gear on a mopar dist, it's a seperate part.
Good luck with Ray, did you try calling Barton before dragging him thru the mud?
i had a good friend , RIP , that had barton build him 2 motors , first was a hemi , no issues that I knew of , second was a 500" RB for his drag car, he had to take that motor back at least twice for problems that were caused by bad assembly.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: prochargedhemi]
#771281
08/11/10 05:30 PM
08/11/10 05:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,840 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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A buddy of mine recently had a K&N oil filter fail immediately after installation on a GM product. He changed the oil, pulled off an AC Delco filter, put on the KN, fired it up and no oil pressure. Tried multiple restarts, nothing. Put the old/used Delco back on, and had instant oil pressure. Not defending RB in any way, whatever it is, is what it is...but it might be a crappy oil filter
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ZIPPY]
#771282
08/11/10 05:54 PM
08/11/10 05:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
A buddy of mine recently had a K&N oil filter fail immediately after installation on a GM product. He changed the oil, pulled off an AC Delco filter, put on the KN, fired it up and no oil pressure. Tried multiple restarts, nothing. Put the old/used Delco back on, and had instant oil pressure.
Not defending RB in any way, whatever it is, is what it is...but it might be a crappy oil filter
Sounds like the oil filter is working pretty good since it's full of bearing material.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771284
08/11/10 05:59 PM
08/11/10 05:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
I have called Ray Barton. I don't recall saying anything bad about him in my posts. You must be referring to other peoples posts.
I had forgotten about the gear not being on the distributor. Too many years working on Chevy's. I would not expect that gear to be made of bronze since this is not a roller cam, but I could be wrong. If all that metal in the filter came from that gear then there can't be much gear left. There is an awful lot of metal in the filter.
Also there was no difference in oil pressure when I changed oil filters. K&N makes a very good filter, however I could see one plug up quicker than other brands since they trap smaller particles than other brands.
I agree with everything you said. Sorry about your trouble.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771285
08/11/10 10:08 PM
08/11/10 10:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
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Quote:
It is not under the best of circumstances that I write this post. In 2007 I had Ray Barton build me a 528 for my ‘Cuda. To date it has 611 miles on it and no racing. I have changed the oil each year at about 200 mile increments. Recently it appears that I have a case of bearing failure.
About the engine: It is the usual Ray Barton recipe of 528 cubes on a Mopar brand cast iron block, solid flat tappet cam (280*, 667”), Nascar lifters, Ray Barton rocker arms, aluminum heads, dual quad single plane, etc. It dyno’ed at 702 HP at near 7K RPM. I have it rev limited at 7K RPM as well.
Here are my issues: Suddenly I lost oil pressure. It would always run about 60 Lbs. and now it is more like 20 Lbs. At about the same time it lost a couple hundred RPM off it’s idle. When I drained the oil it was black and looked like it had way more than 200 miles on it. Former oil changes where clean. There were some fine metal particles on the magnetic oil plug. When I cut the filter open I found a lot of gold colored metal in the pleats. This weekend I will be pulling the pan and bearing caps to see what might have failed.
Does anyone have any suggestions what I should look for besides the obvious bearing damage? Does anyone have any ideas what might have happened and why this failure took place? Does anyone else have experience with Ray Barton engines and their quirks?
Any anti freeze in the oil? This will chew up the bearing very quickly and will leave bronze like flakes in the filter and on the inside of the engine. I know you mentioned it was black.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771286
08/11/10 10:16 PM
08/11/10 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,025 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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Did you not notice any engine noise? Or is the car too loud to hear anything going on under the hood? If there is a good amount of metal in the filter, I would think that it would take a little while to get built up.
When you pull the pan, look the rod caps over real good with a bright light. You may be able to see one or a pair that is/are darker than the others, indicating excess heat. May save some time rather than pulling them all.
But I would be surprised if a bearing could shed that much metal and the crank be okay.
Good luck!
Master, again and still
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: DaveRS23]
#771290
08/11/10 11:44 PM
08/11/10 11:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 121 Detroit, MI
kz5rt2
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FWIW Not saying RB is bad in any way, but I had a similar issue with an B&B engine builder. He told me he'd "fix" it too, issued a crate pickup - I was out of the money I paid for the engine and the engine as well. Stupid me left some valuable early b body A/C brackets/pulleys on it too! Not to mention I was out of attorney/court costs too! I feel your pain and hopefully he makes it right with you! Keep us posted.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: kz5rt2]
#771291
08/12/10 12:08 AM
08/12/10 12:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,200 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I would pull the dis before I pulled the pan. Sounds like what others are saying, the drive gear would cause low timing/idle and low PSI.
Real easy to do compared to a pan.
I want my fair share
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771292
08/12/10 12:12 AM
08/12/10 12:12 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315 MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
hemigod426
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MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
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Quote:
Well, I saved the oil and have let it sit for a day now. Normally if there were any antifreeze in the oil I think you would see a film on the top and there isn’t any.
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has. With the exception of low oil pressure and 200 RPM less idle speed you wouldn’t know there was anything wrong.
I can’t believe the cam or lifters are at fault. There are no extra valve train noises and I know what to listen for. There also isn’t any gold colored metal I can think of in the valve train. Additionally these are the costly Nascar lifters.
I will find out this weekend when I can get it to a hoist and get the pan off. I expect to find at least one bad main bearing and crack shaft damage. I just hope one did not seize and spin, then I will be looking for a block too.
dude pull covers and intake dont run it any more unless you like rods threw the block, most hemi oiling problems are from cam up.cam bearing feed hole twisted,cam fuel pump lobe worn off, inspect rocker tips,ajusters,puchrods,lifters,cam all can tear up when oil shuts off, dont care who makes them and shoot metal everywhere in complete motor,scoring crank/rods,bores,pistons ect..drill prime it with dizzy out to see how and where oil is flowing, if that is all good and flows right, then pull pan, if you pull pan first you can do no testing
MOPAR OR NO CAR
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771293
08/12/10 09:46 AM
08/12/10 09:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
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I'm neurotic
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Quote:
Well, I saved the oil and have let it sit for a day now. Normally if there were any antifreeze in the oil I think you would see a film on the top and there isn’t any.
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has. With the exception of low oil pressure and 200 RPM less idle speed you wouldn’t know there was anything wrong.
I can’t believe the cam or lifters are at fault. There are no extra valve train noises and I know what to listen for. There also isn’t any gold colored metal I can think of in the valve train. Additionally these are the costly Nascar lifters.
I will find out this weekend when I can get it to a hoist and get the pan off. I expect to find at least one bad main bearing and crack shaft damage. I just hope one did not seize and spin, then I will be looking for a block too.
When you say low idle/low oil pressure are these two descriptions used together. At 800 rpm and a thinner vicosity oil, 20psi at idle doesn't seem that far off depending on the bearing clearance and bearing type (full groove). As soon as you get on the throttle, the pressure should shoot up right away. Whats the pressure at say 1500rpm? Yes Hemi valve train is a little noisier, but I wouldn't rule out a cam/lifter going away.
FWIW, I run straight SAE30 oil in mine and when it's fully warmed up the oil pressure sits at 30psi at 1000 rpm. At 1500rpm it's at 65psi.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771294
08/12/10 11:45 AM
08/12/10 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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Are you using a synthetic oil? Many of the synthetics will not stick to engine parts after sitting for a long time. It results in dry engine starts. With all the mechanical load a hemi has up top, I'd expect problems to arise with poor oiling.
I agree with priming the oil with the covers off to see what's going on.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: feets]
#771295
08/12/10 04:39 PM
08/12/10 04:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Are you using a synthetic oil? Many of the synthetics will not stick to engine parts after sitting for a long time. It results in dry engine starts. With all the mechanical load a hemi has up top, I'd expect problems to arise with poor oiling.
I agree with priming the oil with the covers off to see what's going on.
I think the Brad Penn stuff is semi synthetic and is suppose to cling.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771299
08/13/10 12:23 PM
08/13/10 12:23 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446 NJ-USA
HPMike
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Quote:
Why in the world would he say to run it low on oil? It's not SS motor or Comp motor???
I always run more oil than the pan is designed for. 8-9 qts in a 7 qt pan sure as heck isn't gonna hurt anything.
Running more oil than a pan was designed for will, at the very least, cost some power.
If he is running a street hemi pan with that stroke, without some oil control mods, you could have some windage losses costing some power. If everything is right, there is nothing wrong with running those pans at 6 qt. Plus, hemi's will generally retain more oil on an oil change due to the larger surface area. I don't see a problem there.
MB
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: HPMike]
#771301
08/13/10 01:16 PM
08/13/10 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
Quote:
Why in the world would he say to run it low on oil? It's not SS motor or Comp motor???
I always run more oil than the pan is designed for. 8-9 qts in a 7 qt pan sure as heck isn't gonna hurt anything.
Running more oil than a pan was designed for will, at the very least, cost some power.
If he is running a street hemi pan with that stroke, without some oil control mods, you could have some windage losses costing some power. If everything is right, there is nothing wrong with running those pans at 6 qt. Plus, hemi's will generally retain more oil on an oil change due to the larger surface area. I don't see a problem there.
MB
I hear you... But like I said, it's a street motor. And what was said, buzzing it to 7000 grand it needs plenty of oil.
My blown hemis are way different I know. But... I started out with 10 Qts with a roots blower then with wipple screw blower(50psi boost)-12qts Then with a PSI blower(60psi) we were forced to go with 18 qts all in the same pan.It spins though to 9800RPM.
I'll bet you he scuffed some bearings from lack of oil.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771303
08/13/10 01:53 PM
08/13/10 01:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
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Quote:
To answer the questions. The pan is a 7 quart Moroso. The pump is what ever high volume pump Ray Barton uses in his builds. They told me they always run 6 quarts of oil for windage loss reasons. I let it get a quart lower than that. I am told that RB’s engines burn some oil due to the type of rings he uses. I do get a small amount of smoke. As you can see in the one video shot from outside the car it doesn’t smoke much.
There is nothing like closing the barn door after the hoarse got out, but I am going to add an oil pressure switch connected to either a sounder or the horn so I am notified immediately if there is a loss of oil pressure. While going through the gears I am way too busy looking at the tach and keeping the car in a straight line to see the oil pressure gauge.
Challenger 1, holly crap 60 SPI boost!
Chris,
if you are only seeing 20psi above idle, I wouldn't lean on it too hard. That pressure should shoot up to above 50 as soon as you get off idle (1200 and up). Sure looks like somethings up.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771304
08/13/10 02:02 PM
08/13/10 02:02 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446 NJ-USA
HPMike
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The smell of the oil will tell you a lot. Oil can be black-yet not smell burnt. Just look at a typical diesel engine. When an internal part becomes overheated, it will give the oil a characteristic burnt odor. If your oil smells like this, and by looking at the previous photos and the oil pressure readings, it's time to tear it down. MB
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771305
08/13/10 02:05 PM
08/13/10 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,894 United Socialist States of Ame...
tboomer
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That there I find interesting...I got this from a well known racer..There are two Moroso pans that are advertised as 7 quarts...One is actually 6!! Why they sell it as a 7 quart pan is beyond me. Also why would Barton tell you to only run 6 quarts? When you changed oil did you put a 1/2 quart into the filter then top it off? Did the dipstick read at the full mark? What pickup did it have on it??
Need your rear end checked out? Contact Grizzly!!
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: HPMike]
#771309
08/13/10 08:58 PM
08/13/10 08:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216 Under My Car
Mopar_Country
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Quote:
if you are only seeing 20psi above idle, I wouldn't lean on it too hard. That pressure should shoot up to above 50 as soon as you get off idle (1200 and up). Sure looks like somethings up.
My engine is far from new and holds 20 at idle and between 50 and 60 at cruise. I can't imagine running 5 quarts in a 7 quart pan, sounds like you sucked the bottom end dry.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771310
08/13/10 09:20 PM
08/13/10 09:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has.
Wondering about the valve lash after reading this, who set the valve lash? Have you checked since this problem popped up? Noisey rocker arms arn't normal, imho.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771313
08/28/10 08:08 PM
08/28/10 08:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315 MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
hemigod426
top fuel
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MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
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Quote:
Well… It is apart and at Pfeiffers Engine Specialties in Freeport, IL. There are two spun mains, the cam bearings are totally destroyed and 7 flat lobes on the cam. The bearing clearances appear too tight and the rings are too loose. Both the block and crank are salvageable. I will be switching to a solid roller cam if I can locate lifters that will survive on the street. Also the pistons are hitting the heads and will need some milling to clearance them. Steve Pfeiffer says he does NOT see signs that it ran out of oil.
I just changed oil on my Road Runner’s 451 and am seeing similar issues. The filter has silver metal in it as opposed to the gold I saw in the Hemi’s filter. The drain plug has fine filings stuck to it and the oil is turning black in just a very few miles. However I don’t detect the burnt smell in the oil that was evident in the Hemi and I still have good oil pressure. At least this is a roller cam engine so I don’t have to worry about the cam going flat. Here we go again!
I KNEW IT SOUNDED LIKE cam/lifters were tearing up,from my post on page one, and caused all other problems, pistons are tapping heads now beacause there are no rod bearings left, that can throw piston/rods 50-80 thou farther up to hit head. after redone clay for clearance. dont just start milling pistons, is elmer fudd doing this one also....
MOPAR OR NO CAR
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: tboomer]
#771314
08/28/10 08:52 PM
08/28/10 08:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,324 Western Pa
joewhite440
pro stock
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pro stock
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Quote:
That there I find interesting...I got this from a well known racer..There are two Moroso pans that are advertised as 7 quarts...One is actually 6!! Why they sell it as a 7 quart pan is beyond me. Also why would Barton tell you to only run 6 quarts? When you changed oil did you put a 1/2 quart into the filter then top it off? Did the dipstick read at the full mark? What pickup did it have on it??
I have used a lot of those pans on engines over the years. I never knew that! All the ones I put on took 7 Quarts in the pan and one for the filter. Always read the full mark on the Dipstick. I guess you are never to old to learn !
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771315
08/29/10 09:46 AM
08/29/10 09:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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From the beginning I was thinking bad break-in but I kept my mouth shut. I'm hearing more & more about BB's wiping out cams in the first 1,000 miles recently than I have heard in the previous 40! SUMTHINS going on here and I don't know what it is....
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771316
08/29/10 11:38 AM
08/29/10 11:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
Quote:
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has.
Wondering about the valve lash after reading this, who set the valve lash? Have you checked since this problem popped up? Noisey rocker arms arn't normal, imho.
Thanks for the update, sorry about your engine.
When I read what you said about valve train noise it made it sound like the lash was not set right. It's easy to it get wrong, Sorry again.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771319
08/29/10 04:08 PM
08/29/10 04:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
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Quote:
I will be switching to a solid roller cam if I can locate lifters that will survive on the street.
No problem there. Just have Lunati or your favorite cam company grind you a mild street roller profile (something in the .590-.600 range, 110 lobe separation, 240 @ 050 lift) and run a lighter spring (190 on the seat and 450 open)or a beehive spring. Any lifter/spring will last a long time, your less likely to smoke exhaust push rods, and it'll make plenty o power (mine made 650@6500rpm). Keep your oil pressure around 30psi at idle.
Set the end play up for around .003-.005" so the cam doesn't bump around alot as this beats the hell out of the oil pump drive. It also keeps the ignition timing rock steady.
If you want the specs I can dig them up.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771320
08/31/10 09:35 AM
08/31/10 09:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,488 Annapolis, MD, USA
Vert
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,488
Annapolis, MD, USA
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Chris, this is a real bummer. I have the SAME engine from Barton. No issues 'cept the damper bolts and the mechanical fuel pump mounting. Those rockers are loud, same as mine. Hard to hear any other mechanicals when she is running. I agree about milling the pistons. If they weren't hitting before, they won't hit when rebuilt. You won't be stretching those rods any.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: Vert]
#771321
08/31/10 11:40 AM
08/31/10 11:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
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If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#771323
08/31/10 04:50 PM
08/31/10 04:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.
That was my thought.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: gdonovan]
#771325
08/31/10 05:09 PM
08/31/10 05:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.
That was my thought.
No doubt in my mind, that's what spun the main bearings. How can you have spun bearings yet no signs of oil starvation?
7 flat cam lobes?? The valve train was not setup right from the get go either and is not supposed to be loud. Audible yea, loud no.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771326
08/31/10 06:36 PM
08/31/10 06:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315 MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
hemigod426
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315
MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.
That was my thought.
No doubt in my mind, that's what spun the main bearings. How can you have spun bearings yet no signs of oil starvation?
7 flat cam lobes?? The valve train was not setup right from the get go either and is not supposed to be loud. Audible yea, loud no.
i dont think pan/pickup/oil level had anything to do with what happen, you would have to hold pedal down @7,500 rpms for over 2 minute to cavitate stock oil pan, hemi heads/block have huge return holes on all four coners,wedge dont. think cam fried and packed all bearings feeds with oil shut off oil flow to them, if it keep runing would be rods out the block...
MOPAR OR NO CAR
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: imfixinmopars426]
#771328
08/31/10 09:54 PM
08/31/10 09:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
since cam failed,wonder if it was broken in w/ light springs? then inners added after? or just slammed together,and shipped? hmmmmm
I wonder if it was the chicken first then the egg or vice versa (did the cam fail and cause the other damage or did the bearing fail and cause the damage) I think the cam failed and took everything else with it.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 Valve Train Oiling
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771332
09/29/10 09:35 PM
09/29/10 09:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Are any of you familiar with how Ray Barton oils the valve train?
In tearing the engine down I see sprayers on the intake rockers, but not on the exhausts. Also the lifter boars are bushed and the bushings have no oil holes at all in them. Ray Barton’s people are telling me that the cam splashes enough to keep the solid lifters oiled and that the intake sprayers will splatter around enough for the exhausts.
My engine rebuilder disagrees and is going to drill an oil hole in the lifter bushings and possibly the exhaust rocker shafts as well. What do you think about Ray Barton’s oiling and what my engine rebuilder wants to do?
The holes in the bushing are done for hydraulic cams or engines that oil the valve gear with lifters/pushrods designed for through the push rod oiling ah-la Chevrolet. They are correct in that a solid lifter/solid roller would get enough oil from splash and won't need the holes.
The spray nozzle thing is interesting. Normally it's the exhaust push rods that get the spray nozzles
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: torkrules]
#771334
09/29/10 11:53 PM
09/29/10 11:53 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,560
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Quote:
since cam failed,wonder if it was broken in w/ light springs? then inners added after? or just slammed together,and shipped? hmmmmm
I wonder if it was the chicken first then the egg or vice versa (did the cam fail and cause the other damage or did the bearing fail and cause the damage) I think the cam failed and took everything else with it.
The idle slowed because the cam failed, pick-up is blocked because the screen is full of camshaft, starved pump, boom.
Kevin
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: Twostick]
#771337
10/18/10 04:12 PM
10/18/10 04:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
since cam failed,wonder if it was broken in w/ light springs? then inners added after? or just slammed together,and shipped? hmmmmm
I wonder if it was the chicken first then the egg or vice versa (did the cam fail and cause the other damage or did the bearing fail and cause the damage) I think the cam failed and took everything else with it.
The idle slowed because the cam failed, pick-up is blocked because the screen is full of camshaft, starved pump, boom.
Kevin
the pickup wouldn't be clogged with camshaft unless the particles were very big , metal on metal grinding leaves very small pieces , what happens is they get thru the screen and into the oil pump and it does a number on the oil pump since the oil goes thru it before it gets filtered.
Good luck with the second bullet , did you go back to Barton with it or take it elsewhere ?
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771339
10/18/10 06:24 PM
10/18/10 06:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 249 Sonora, CA
68X426
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 249
Sonora, CA
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Chris: did you finally drill oil holes in the rocker shafts and/or the rocker arms?
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1968 Plymouth Road Runner, Hemi and much more
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