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Bay Area Six Pak expert? #732485
06/23/10 11:33 PM
06/23/10 11:33 PM
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Danville, CA
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TAdave Offline OP
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TAdave  Offline OP
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Danville, CA
Can anyone recommend someone in the SF bay area that can properly set-up a six pak? I have a number of issues to resolve.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: TAdave] #732486
06/24/10 12:04 AM
06/24/10 12:04 AM
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Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Are you looking to have them restored or just tuned?

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #732487
06/24/10 12:06 AM
06/24/10 12:06 AM
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Danville, CA
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TAdave Offline OP
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Thet are already restored, they need to be tuned, and maybe some secondary diapram springs replaced, etc...

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: TAdave] #732488
06/24/10 12:22 AM
06/24/10 12:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Spokane Washington
Ok, describe what you mean by "Tuned"? Assuming you have a complete stock setup and a mostly stock engine? And assuming that they currently run well after being restored and the base idle, idle mixtures, choke adjustments, etc. have been set? If that's the case you'd likely need someone with a dyno or some drag strip testing to really optimize them for potential performance gains using your exact engine combo. While vac pod spring and jet changes etc. may offer increased performance, it's no gaurantee, most changes will just be guesswork without a way to chart the performance increase/decrease with the various changes made.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: TAdave] #732489
06/24/10 12:32 AM
06/24/10 12:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 667
CA
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66Dodge Offline
super gas
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Give "Classics By Steve" a call.
You can Google his website and read his good feedback on Yelp.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #732490
06/24/10 12:32 AM
06/24/10 12:32 AM
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Posts: 9
Danville, CA
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TAdave Offline OP
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Yes, you are on it. They basically work fine, the fuel air mix is good, the idle is great, the car starts right up (when warm) etc, but the performance is marguinal. I have a hesitation upon acceleration, poor low end performance, and I am really not sure the secondary carbs open. (I disconnected them and wired them shut, and the performance was nearly the same.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: TAdave] #732491
06/24/10 08:07 AM
06/24/10 08:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
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Dave it doesn't sound like all of the basics have been handled, when I asked if they ran well etc. I meant EVERYTHING was right, not just the center carb. If your end carbs aren't even working it's not time to start changing vac pod springs or making other changes just yet, you need to find out why the end carbs aren't working first, once they are THEN it's time to make fine tuning adjustments, they may not need anything at all. I can only guess as to what your problems are but the first thing I'd look for are vacuum leaks, six pack intakes often have leaks, especially if installed incorrectly. Next would be throttle blade to intake opening interferance, sometimes the blades hang up on the gaskets, etc. preventing them from opening.

There's a friend of mine in the Bay area who is a very good Mopar mech and who owns some very nice Hemi and Six Pack cars, I'll PM his info to you, he doesn't run a business but will probably help you out, very nice guy.


Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #732492
06/24/10 08:33 AM
06/24/10 08:33 AM
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Posts: 2,468
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Maybe this will help, this is a document in a can.


Here is a guide to tune six packs. It's not everything but gets you close enough.

Quality cap rotor, wires and plugs that are not too hot or cold in heat range.
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged
Make sure that your ignition advance curve is such that you can run at 15 - 18 deg advance at idle. This is important.
Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set
A good quality vacuum gage is required, a digital tach if you have that as well.
Connect vac gauge to manifold vacuum source.

Outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT

64 jets in ctr carb

If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb

Black springs in the secondaries
You must know what power valve is in the ctr carb. Typically a 6.5

The slotted screw on top of the float adjuster, is just a lock screw, you can remove it for now, the 5/8" nut is the adjuster/needle seat nut, rotating it counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make small 1/2 turns & let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off
check the fuel in the clear site window, at the bottom on the ctr carb and up to half the window the front and rear carbs,

After you set the fuel level in all 3 carbs, reset the idle on the center carb


Floats are adjusted properly
Ctr carb bottom of the sight hole
end carbs a very slight trickle out the sight hole

Starting point for Jets. center 65, front 78, rear 80. If the weather gets cold you might want to increase that to center 66, front 80, rear 82

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this]
You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates.
If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.

Start car, set idle to 1000 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp. 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. This is a must.

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating?
This must be correct this before proceeding If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed. Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 15-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-112 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-12 BTDC
center carb idle mixture screws out ccw 1.5 turns

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding. Issues such as poor intake sealing, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900
Drive car. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean, no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj mixture to highest reading of vacuum.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

How do you know when you are "there”?
You should be able to idle most cars down to 800-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp. You do not smell raw gas in the exhaust. The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. The spark plugs are clean. The car starts runs and drives smoothly when cold or hot. The car restarts immediately when hot without touching the throttle. When you whack the throttle from an idle the engine immediately returns to idle.

Note: If your initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically you need to modify the advance curve so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Again: 195 degree thermostat.
Black springs in the secondaries, the six pak needs to come in later than sooner, as the ctr carb is 500 cfm which is good till at least 3500 rpm by itself. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: ThermoQuad] #732493
06/24/10 09:11 AM
06/24/10 09:11 AM
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arizona, usa
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lokalik Offline
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arizona, usa
i run the lightest springs in mine and when the outboards open up you can really feel it. at one time the outboards didn't feel like they were opening, found torn diaph. i have the promax kit and use a #35 squirter. motor is a mild 383.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: lokalik] #732494
06/24/10 10:08 AM
06/24/10 10:08 AM
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Posts: 2,468
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Quote:

I run the lightest springs in mine and when the outboards open up you can really feel it.




Here is why - The air fuel ratio spikes lean at the instant the secondaries open. When the rpm is up where it should be the lean spike is invisible but at lower rpms it's exaggerated so the car slows down before it picks back up again.
That's why you feel the hit of the secondaries rather a proper set up where faster just become REAL FAST.

Perhaps you should run the tuning exercise and see what the WOW factor becomes. A properly tuned six pak car is a much better driving machine than any single 4 bbl car.

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: ThermoQuad] #732495
06/24/10 10:29 AM
06/24/10 10:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 24
Modesto, CA
Chris_Holton Offline
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Modesto, CA
we are doing a set right now, it is best to finalize them on the dyno with your engine. It's the best way to get your jetting on spot...
(209) 527-1568
p.s. we have a d.t.s. dyno here in modesto ca. 75 miles from s.f.....

Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: TAdave] #732496
06/24/10 11:17 AM
06/24/10 11:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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If it were me, I would follow Tom Quad's advice while running the car on Chris Holton's dyno. It sure would save a lot of time and add certainty to your tuneing.

Make sure your distributor and timing are such that you can run more initial advance with out too much total advance.

I remember driving a car with vacuum secondaries over the Sierra's to California once. It was an all stock dog that would likely have benefitted greatly from Tom's tuning suggestions.

I've got the mechanical secondaries carbs on my '70, and would never go back. I love them.

Well, maybe I would some day when I turn my '70 into a trailer queen museum piece.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Bay Area Six Pak expert? [Re: jbc426] #732497
06/24/10 07:13 PM
06/24/10 07:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9
Danville, CA
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TAdave Offline OP
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Wow, Thanks for all the info, especially Tom. It is alot to digest, and a little over my head, but there are a few problems I can adress right away, the t-stat is 165, and I am not running direct m,anifold vacuum! The rest is a littel more complex. I think the dyno is a good way to go.







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