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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: 76dodgeboy]
#701102
05/18/10 06:36 AM
05/18/10 06:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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The 440 crank has to have the mains cut down to 383/400 size, most have the counter balances cut down a bit while it is at the crank place as sometimes the counterbalances hit. or you can mock up and see and grind the block a bit if need be. If you use aftermarket rods you may have to grind a wee bit at the bottoms of the cylinders very slight. You can use 440 or 383/400 rods pistons are available for either way. I would suggest new H beam rods as by the time you buy new rod bolts , re size, and R&R the pistons they are close to that cost and pistons will be full floating and R&R is remove and replace the spiro locks with the H beam rods. Your really building a .055 over 440 (+ .030 400 block) in lower narrower block great to get 440 pop where room is an issue like a dart or A body cuda plus the block is 30 or so pounds lighter than a 440 block. If room is not a issue I would just build the 440 based 446 or 452 (+.030 or +.060). a comparable built 400/451 and a 440/452 will make the same power so it's kinda not a stroker but is a stroker to a 383/400. That said a 500 to 512 kit in a 440 block (or the 400 if room is an issue) is about the same price as a total rebuild of a 440 or a 440 crank to 400 swap so that would be the way to go. obviously there are some girly men out there that are better suited to 318's but most of the rest of us are BIGGER BETTER FASTER type of guys. hard to beet all in one kits when you do all your math. http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htmor' http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/nonbalanced.htmlbalanced http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/inba.htmlhope this answers some questions. 
Last edited by Dodgem; 05/18/10 06:38 AM.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: CompSyn]
#701105
05/18/10 08:06 PM
05/18/10 08:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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If seeking a junkyard combo, the origins of the 451 build, are that guys were putting a 440 crank in a 400 with the stock slugs and rods for a cheapo race combo. Do the math. stroke difference is 3.75-3.380= .370 half of that is .185 The slug is about .1 in the hole already, so with the 440 crank, it sticks out .085. Use a .040 gasket, and your down to .045. Should work with open heads, but you'd have to cut valve reliefs in the slugs I'm sure.. Obviously any ridge in the cylinders would have to be removed. Obviously this would be a frankenstien motor of sorts, with little precision. Just pointing out the thinking behind it, and how being resourcefull could yield you a fairly powerful motor with little money in parts. 11:1 bigblock out of junkyard stuff. Back to the modern world... Stroker kits make the cost of building a 500" motor about the same as building a 451, so it would seem obvious that bigger is better. 
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: dave571]
#701109
05/18/10 09:23 PM
05/18/10 09:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
If seeking a junkyard combo, the origins of the 451 build, are that guys were putting a 440 crank in a 400 with the stock slugs and rods for a cheapo race combo.
Do the math. stroke difference is 3.75-3.380= .370 half of that is .185 The slug is about .1 in the hole already, so with the 440 crank, it sticks out .085. Use a .040 gasket, and your down to .045. Should work with open heads, but you'd have to cut valve reliefs in the slugs I'm sure.. Obviously any ridge in the cylinders would have to be removed.
Obviously this would be a Frankenstein motor of sorts, with little precision. Just pointing out the thinking behind it, and how being resourcefull could yield you a fairly powerful motor with little money in parts. 11:1 bigblock out of junkyard stuff.
Back to the modern world... Stroker kits make the cost of building a 500" motor about the same as building a 451, so it would seem obvious that bigger is better.
Junkyard combo... Frankenstein motor... Little precision... Anything but. Look, the 400/451 stroker build is one of the most popular builds today, period! That's why many of the piston manufactures make off-the-shelf pistons for this combo.
Consider results of the 2009 Amsoil/Mopar Muscle Magazine Engine Challenge. All seven participants utilized 400 blocks ranging in size from 451 to 512 cubic inches. Further, all were required to use Edelbrock RPM heads.
This engine challenge factors in power, torque, and cost of the build. The 500-inch strokers in the challenge did not come out on top because even though they produced more torque, they were MORE COSTLY TO BUILD.
The winner of the challenge was Schurbon Engine and Machine with their 451ci, 582HP, 544lb/ft engine. They used a factory 400 block, factory forged 440 crank, and factory 440 connecting rods with Keith Black #280 pistons.
You can watch this winning 400/451 combo spin on the dyno in this video by clicking HERE
By the way, all the 451-inch based engines used factory 400 blocks and factory forged 440 crankshafts. In addition, this budget based combo took 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the challenge with the 500-inch strokers rounding out the last three spots due to the cost to build. Also notice that the 451 combos made more horsepower than the 500-inch builds, but just a little shorter on torque.
Check out the results of the 2009 Amsoil/Mopar Engine Challenge below:
1st) Schurbon Engine and Machine - 452ci, 582HP, 544lb/ft
2nd) Chenoweth Speed And Machine - 452ci, 589HP, 518lb/ft
3rd) Laroy Engines - 452ci, 726HP, 568lb/ft
4th) Promax Performance - 451ci, 568HP, 518lb/ft
5th) Mid America Racing Engines - 500ci, 697HP, 619lb/ft
6th) JD Engine and Machine - 499ci, 724HP, 610lb/ft
7th) R.M. Competition - 512ci, 628HP, 596lb/ft
So as we can see, some of the top Mopar builders in the country have proved that a budget based 400/451 stroker combo can perform quite well and do it reliably.
If you have the cash and want to build a 500-inch motor with aftermarket parts, that's fine, but don't be surprised when a 400/451 motor with old "junkyard" Made In America Chrysler parts provides as good as or better performance.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: CompSyn]
#701110
05/18/10 09:42 PM
05/18/10 09:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Junkyard combo... Frankenstein motor... Little precision... Anything but. Look, the 400/451 stroker build is one of the most popular builds today, period! That's why many of the piston manufactures make off-the-shelf pistons for this combo.
If you reread my post, I am referring to the origin of this build. It DEFINATELY was a frankenstien, little precision, junkyard combo, to get a cheap 11:1 440 plus cid motor, for nothing more than turning down a crank, and slapping it all together. Ignore the balance issues, and give'r.
The modern 451 that guys build, with the right quality pistons, etc.. is a great build.
I will restate, that with the cost's of modern stroker kits being quite reasonable, I think it makes more sense to build a bigger motor, for the same money as what the 451 will cost in the end.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: dave571]
#701111
05/19/10 03:18 AM
05/19/10 03:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Junkyard combo... Frankenstein motor... Little precision... Anything but. Look, the 400/451 stroker build is one of the most popular builds today, period! That's why many of the piston manufactures make off-the-shelf pistons for this combo.
If you reread my post, I am referring to the origin of this build. It DEFINATELY was a frankenstien, little precision, junkyard combo, to get a cheap 11:1 440 plus cid motor, for nothing more than turning down a crank, and slapping it all together. Ignore the balance issues, and give'r.
The modern 451 that guys build, with the right quality pistons, etc.. is a great build.
I will restate, that with the cost's of modern stroker kits being quite reasonable, I think it makes more sense to build a bigger motor, for the same money as what the 451 will cost in the end.
Awesome! Looks like we’ve brought the story full circle. From the meager beginnings as a non-precision-junkyard-frankenstein motor to an all out 726 horsepower screamer.
I’m not sure where you’re coming up with your math, but I estimate that if I had to start from scratch and acquire all the parts and machine work for a balanced reciprocating assembly like the one used in Schurbon Engine and Machine’s 582HP, 544lb/ft - 400/451 stroker build, I’d be looking at around $1,400.00 give or take a few pennies. The thing is there’s many who have a lot of the parts sitting around anyway, like the original poster here, and don’t have purchase everything from scratch. That in of itself makes the old 400/451 build a good value.
Now if one is going to buy a 500-inch stroker kit they’re looking at upwards of:
Muscle Motors - 400/511 stroker kit $2099.00
440Source - 400/512 stroker kit $1897.00
Indy Cylinder head - 400/500 stroker kit $2150.00
Pricing above does not include the possible/probable extra machine involved to correct the questionable tolerance of aftermarket crankshafts that are produced offshore. And some have indicated the aftermarket connecting rods have some tendencies of requiring resizing as well.
Guess it’s all in what one wants…
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: CompSyn]
#701112
05/19/10 03:48 AM
05/19/10 03:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
MoparDonny
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
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My 440 crank, by the time I had it cut and then everything balanced to it(or vice versa) cost me 400 bucks. My combo is a deadly little street motor but I have 440 LY (good stock stuff)rods in it that I had hones for full floating pins, Expensive JE pistons with a tiny 1.31 compression height. I think that my Align honing, Cam bearing install, Bore, deck, clean, rod resize and mentioned crank work, came out to $1400. Add $1200 worth of JE pistons/pins/rings, she gets pricey for low budget. 1500 for heads, 1000 for miscellaneous stuff ( water pumps, studs, cam, heavy duty rocker shafts,rockers, widage tray, oil pump, timing set, gaskets  . Goes like a raped date, but don't expect it to be all that cheap if you plan on using some good aftermarket stuff on it. That 440 might be the way to go on the cheap. I put together a 12 second 440 with nothing more than a 509 cam , headers, and home ported 452 heads I think it was a 1500 dollar build.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: MoparDonny]
#701113
05/19/10 09:20 AM
05/19/10 09:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
I think that my Align honing, Cam bearing install, Bore, deck, clean, rod resize and mentioned crank work, came out to $1400. Add $1200 worth of JE pistons/pins/rings, she gets pricey for low budget. 1500 for heads, 1000 for miscellaneous stuff (water pumps, studs, cam, heavy duty rocker shafts,rockers, widage tray, oil pump, timing set, gaskets.
We are not disagreeing per say, but you've missed the point. What we are talking about is a side-by-side comparison of a balanced reciprocating assembly, budget 400/451 vs. 400/511(aftermarket stroker kit).
Reciprocating assembly meaning crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, main bearings, rod bearings, and piston rings. (all the components that are generally included in a aftermarket stroker kit)
So if one rounds up the "good stock stuff", the forged 440 crankshaft, LY rods along with decent aftermatket parts, like Schurbon Engine and Machine's 582HP, 544lb/ft - 400/451 stroker build as shown in THIS VIDEO, you're looking at around $1,400.00 give or take.
That's about $600.00 less than purchasing an aftermarket stroker kit; money in which you use to purchase water pumps, studs, cam, heavy duty rocker shafts,rockers, widage tray, oil pump, timing set, gaskets, etc, etc, etc...
I'm not talking about buying top high dollar components for a no holds bared build, I'm talking about value-per-dollar return that's hard to beat with an economical tried and true 400/451 build as proven by the 2009 Amsoil/Mopar Engine Challenge.
In some cases, less is more...
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: Jeff_383]
#701115
05/19/10 08:23 PM
05/19/10 08:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
forphorty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
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Quote:
I'm not any means an expert, but I think from looking at the engine challenge that the ~$600 more is not a bad deal for the useable increase in torque across the board with the bigger engines. At least in a heavy car.
 I cant't think of anything i can do to an engine for $600( not counting nitrous)that will improve the performance as much as an additional 50 cubes will.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: Twostick]
#701117
05/20/10 12:47 AM
05/20/10 12:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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I just got done assembling my 452 (.040 over). I kept track of every penny, and came in just under $5000-. But I was able to re-use some parts off my 383. Can't wait to hear this baby run  I'll agree with the $600 number as well. That's an accurate budget # between building a 3.38 stroke 400 vs. a 3.75 stroke. Nothing else you could do with that money will yield the same results.
Last edited by GEnsrud; 05/20/10 12:55 AM.
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Re: Stroker 400?
[Re: forphorty]
#701118
05/20/10 12:48 AM
05/20/10 12:48 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not any means an expert, but I think from looking at the engine challenge that the ~$600 more is not a bad deal for the useable increase in torque across the board with the bigger engines. At least in a heavy car.
I cant't think of anything i can do to an engine for $600( not counting nitrous)that will improve the performance as much as an additional 50 cubes will.
That is the math I'm using.
for 600 bucks more, bigger is better.
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