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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: MoparforLife]
#68747
06/06/08 08:03 PM
06/06/08 08:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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 Whats your oil pressure like when its cold and this is happening? If its the same as it has always been, & you're calling the sound a "knocking", Id say pistons are rattling around a bit. Might start planning a build & saving some cash?
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: Dart 340]
#68748
06/06/08 08:53 PM
06/06/08 08:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261
ILL
mark7171
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261
ILL
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hydraulic lifters suecome to the spring pressure and bleed down after time. takes longer with thicker oils. at startup they have to build back oil pressure and fill to pump back up to place again. it takes up the space and the valve train is at it proper specs. no more lean/pulling/clacking/hammering.
or not, it could be piston slap
or spark knock due to bad timming.
Last edited by mark7171; 06/07/08 10:19 AM.
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#68749
06/06/08 09:33 PM
06/06/08 09:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
OP
moparts member
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moparts member
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Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
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Quote:
Whats your oil pressure like when its cold and this is happening? If its the same as it has always been, & you're calling the sound a "knocking", Id say pistons are rattling around a bit.
Might start planning a build & saving some cash?
Piston slap doesn't sound right to me.
Oil pressure is 70 psi. The car sat for 4 hours and it's fine. It seems more like in the top end to me.
I can check the lifters. The engine is new. Not saying things cant be wrong, but piston slap?
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: mark7171]
#68750
06/06/08 09:37 PM
06/06/08 09:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Snowing in the north!
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Quote:
hydraulic lifters suecome to the spring pressure and bleed down after time. long with thick oil. at startup they have to build back oil pressure and fill to pump back up to place again.
or not, it could be piston slap
or spark knock due to bad timming.
Runs like a champ after 5 minute warm up. How can I diagnose spark knock easily?
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: Dart 340]
#68751
06/06/08 10:13 PM
06/06/08 10:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
Quote:
Whats your oil pressure like when its cold and this is happening? If its the same as it has always been, & you're calling the sound a "knocking", Id say pistons are rattling around a bit.
Might start planning a build & saving some cash?
Piston slap doesn't sound right to me.
Oil pressure is 70 psi. The car sat for 4 hours and it's fine. It seems more like in the top end to me.
I can check the lifters. The engine is new. Not saying things cant be wrong, but piston slap?
That is where you here the piston skirts slapping. It is cold and they are shriviled up till they warm and expand eough to take up the slack = noise gone. (now remember we are talking pistons here) Lifters usually only take few seconds to pump, piston slap til the pistons warm and expand.
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: MoparforLife]
#68752
06/06/08 10:19 PM
06/06/08 10:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
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Snowing in the north!
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Whats your oil pressure like when its cold and this is happening? If its the same as it has always been, & you're calling the sound a "knocking", Id say pistons are rattling around a bit.
Might start planning a build & saving some cash?
Piston slap doesn't sound right to me.
Oil pressure is 70 psi. The car sat for 4 hours and it's fine. It seems more like in the top end to me.
I can check the lifters. The engine is new. Not saying things cant be wrong, but piston slap?
That is where you here the piston skirts slapping. It is cold and they are shriviled up till they warm and expand eough to take up the slack = noise gone. (now remember we are talking pistons here) Lifters usually only take few seconds to pump, piston slap til the pistons warm and expand.
Well I suppose it's possible. Now remember I just had to fix the key on the cam sprocket. Certain I did not change anything, but the new key is .030 wider as he had an under size key in it. Did not have the noise until I did this. Started the car a few minutes ago dead cold and it sounds good. It sat for like 4 hours.
Anything I could have botched or something else to check out?
Not discarding piston slap, just don't want to think about it.
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: buildanother]
#68755
06/07/08 10:08 AM
06/07/08 10:08 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
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Quote:
If it is pistons rocking in there during warmup, it most likely can run for years without worry. 
Best way to determine that would be?
It's a 4 speed so the converter issue is out.
Doesn't spark knock show it's head more when the engine is hot not cold?
Maybe I should pull the timing cover back off and check the cam timing? See my post on timing marks.
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: Dart 340]
#68757
06/07/08 11:10 AM
06/07/08 11:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
moparmarks
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
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Is it a knock or more of a tick? Rods and pistons make a knock and valve train makes more a ticking noise.
I have a 360 that sometimes has a lifter thats will tick for an hour or so and sometimes doesn't tick at all. I've lived with it for 14 years.
72 Satellite Sebring Plus 440, 72 Dart 5.9 4-spd, 68 Valiant, 73 W200, 78 D100 sb, 78 D200, 98 DAKOTA, . Moparmarks Parts & Restorations Desert Mopar Metal Grand Jct. CO 970-261-7039 http://moparmark.com/motormangj@gmail.com
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: moparmarks]
#68759
06/07/08 12:23 PM
06/07/08 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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Quote:
Is it a knock or more of a tick? Rods and pistons make a knock and valve train makes more a ticking noise.
I have a 360 that sometimes has a lifter thats will tick for an hour or so and sometimes doesn't tick at all. I've lived with it for 14 years.
This is the crux of the issue. You're going to have to be able to tell if its a valvetrain noise (lets call that a tick), or a bottom end noise (lets call that a knock)
We're going back & forth here between the two, but seriously, not to be a jerk, but you really should be able to just listen & tell whether the noise is coming from the top or bottom. If its a knocking sound with a deep tone, then its from the bottom
The reason I asked about oil pressure is that bottom end noise will generally come from one of two sources... bearings, or pistons. If the oil pressure is good, or at least you haven't seen a change, then its probobly not the bearings. when a bearing starts to gap, you'll lose oil pressure. Piston slap means theres just a little too much clearance between the piston & bore. Once the motor heats up & everything expands just a bit, it will go away. It may last for years ??? but at this point I do believe the writing is on the wall. clearances are out of proper tollerance.... motor is getting tired.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#68760
06/07/08 02:19 PM
06/07/08 02:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
OP
moparts member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
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Quote:
Quote:
Is it a knock or more of a tick? Rods and pistons make a knock and valve train makes more a ticking noise.
I have a 360 that sometimes has a lifter thats will tick for an hour or so and sometimes doesn't tick at all. I've lived with it for 14 years.
This is the crux of the issue. You're going to have to be able to tell if its a valvetrain noise (lets call that a tick), or a bottom end noise (lets call that a knock)
We're going back & forth here between the two, but seriously, not to be a jerk, but you really should be able to just listen & tell whether the noise is coming from the top or bottom. If its a knocking sound with a deep tone, then its from the bottom
The reason I asked about oil pressure is that bottom end noise will generally come from one of two sources... bearings, or pistons. If the oil pressure is good, or at least you haven't seen a change, then its probobly not the bearings. when a bearing starts to gap, you'll lose oil pressure. Piston slap means theres just a little too much clearance between the piston & bore. Once the motor heats up & everything expands just a bit, it will go away. It may last for years ??? but at this point I do believe the writing is on the wall. clearances are out of proper tollerance.... motor is getting tired.
It's just weird. It as for over 14 hours last night and it was fine today when I started it up.
Zero knock at all.... so I don't get it. Wouldn't piston slap happen all the time until it warmed up from a cold start? I would think detonation would show it's face more in warmer situations also.?
Valve train.. well there were strike marks on the baffles, so I removed one and gave the other more clearance. Still made the noise yesterday after that, but today it's fine so maybe that didnt let the lifter pump up properly on 2 cylinders until it ran for 5 minutes or so?
A bit baffled at this point.
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: Dart 340]
#68761
06/07/08 02:40 PM
06/07/08 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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so you've pulled the valve-covers & checked the rocker-gear (?). everything looks okay?? look at the tops of the pushrods as you rotate the motor. excessive wear or problems will usually start here. If everything looks good, button it back up & put a can of "engine restore" in & run it for a few hours, then change the oil. Maybe run an oil additive with the fresh oil.
If it persists after all this...... I'd go back to my earlier statement... "engine is just getting tired".
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: Dart 340]
#68763
06/07/08 03:00 PM
06/07/08 03:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
moparmarks
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
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Without hearing the tone/location of the noise for myself I'd say it's a lifter that is bleeding off when left under pressure when the motor stopped. With a long screw driver to your ear, you could probably find which one is the little PITB. Mines #8E
72 Satellite Sebring Plus 440, 72 Dart 5.9 4-spd, 68 Valiant, 73 W200, 78 D100 sb, 78 D200, 98 DAKOTA, . Moparmarks Parts & Restorations Desert Mopar Metal Grand Jct. CO 970-261-7039 http://moparmark.com/motormangj@gmail.com
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Re: startup knock / hammering
[Re: moparmarks]
#68764
06/07/08 05:43 PM
06/07/08 05:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
Dart 340
OP
moparts member
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OP
moparts member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,195
Snowing in the north!
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Quote:
Without hearing the tone/location of the noise for myself I'd say it's a lifter that is bleeding off when left under pressure when the motor stopped. With a long screw driver to your ear, you could probably find which one is the little PITB. Mines #8E
Yea I was going to use a broom handle tomorrow and see if I can pin point it better.
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