Finally got a chance to do most of the disassembly on the Challenger's 440 yesterday and figured I'd pass on what I found. FYI, this is a tear-down resulting from having screwed up last fall and run the engine at the track while low on oil (estimate being down 3 quarts) due to not identifying a "mystery" oil leak that turned out to be a broken spot weld in my oil pan.

I'll give the highlights (lowlights?) now and will see about taking pictures later to add some visual context to my descriptions. So, w/ that introduction...

Rod bearings: All are toasted and look pretty much exactly like what the Clevite bearing problem tech sheet shows as being subject to oil starvation. I was wondering if maybe they'd look better the closer to the oil pump, but they all look like crap. I'll also mention that the bearings have all lost their crush and basically fell right out of the rods when the caps were loosened.

Main bearings: TBD... I haven't had a chance to pry off the Pro-Gram 3-bolt center caps, yet. Given the rod bearings' condition, I'm not expecting anything good.

Crank: The rod journals are not scored excessively, but they all show wear marks that I expect won't just polish out. This crank is already .010"/.010", so I guess it's time for another one.

Pistons: These are custom Ross pistons which replaced the previous JEs when I had to take the bore out from 4.375" to 4.380". All of them have some vertical wear "stripes" on the skirts that correspond to "polished" stripes in their respective cylinder bores. I don't know if this is indicative of having been run w/ insufficient lubrication, or possibly the piston-to-wall clearance was too tight, or ??? I don't see any issues w/ being able to clean up the skirts w/ 600 wet-or-dry and re-honing the bores, though.

Lifters: The Schubecks look fine. I was wondering if I was going to find any more odd swirl marks etched into the ceramic pucks like I did on a couple of them when I tore the engine down in 2000, but they all look good. (I had them touched up by Joe S. before putting them back in service in 2002).

Timing chain: The Pro-Gear setup still looks tight.

Oil pan: There's sludge in the bottom of the pan. Is this a side-effect of running Brad Penn? I never saw sludge when using Valvoline VR-1 or Mobil 1, so I suspect it's the BP I started running in 2008. I don't like sludge...

Oil pickup tube: Uhhhhh... it snapped when I was trying to remove it. And since it broke off while still in the block, I can't tell whether the pipe threads in the block are stripped out or not. "Something" doesn't look right on the remaining threads that were left on the part that broke off, either. Anybody know where I can find an E-Z Out for a 1/2" NPT tube?

So, now I'm wondering if the internal oil pump pickup threads are trashed, leaving me w/ no option but to convert to an external pickup setup in order to still use this block. Considering I was trying to stay w/ a low-profile "Street Hemi" style pan, hanging a 7" sump w/ an external feed line, etc., wasn't in my (original) plans.

Well that sucks Brad...I had a similar problem happen in "06" when I experienced a oil starvation problem when using a stock oil pan and Indy heads with stock (unrestricted) oil line kit.
I smoked two rods, they were hot enough to turn blue. But surprisingly the mains looked good, i didnt even replaced the bearings. The rods on the last throw #7/8 took the beating. I guess they are furthest away from the oil pump...
I ended up turning the Eagle Crank .020 which created a problem finding the narrow bearings in a the .020 size. I ended up using a Federal Molgul bearing. and it clear the fillet just fine. I assume when turned the crank down the fillets were cut a little too..But anyways that engine went on to be a great engine...running countless runs eventually making well over 700 hp.
The sludge might be a combination of things, if you use Moly lube it could be that. Or it could just be babbit/bearing material which I have seen on engines personally which has suffered from the same problems...The engine I spoke of early had quite a bit of sludge. It wasnt assembly lube either.
Have the crank mag'd if it checks out have them too turn it .020.

Yep, the sludge could be moly lube. Check it with a magnet to see. Could also be bearing material.

Crank can go 0.020 under if it isn't cracked or take it all the way to 2.200 and run Chevy rods. Can even offset grind it and make a 470. I had a smoked 413 crank that I turned into a 470 crank by doing that trick. (Of course, I probably spent more doing that than just buying a cheap stroker crank.)

Bummer on the oil pickup. Those aren't fun to get out if you snap them off like that. That was already a 1/2 NPT inlet? So you'll need a big EZ out and some luck to salvage the internally oiling option. External oiling isn't really much fun on a street car with motor mounts and headers.

A lot of what you see on the crank may be build up and not wear down.
you can turn it down lots yet!

In no particular order...

It's an OEM crank being used in a 600 HP engine... it's probably good money after bad to put any more $$$ into it, when the fuse is probably already lit on it w/ this application. I'll have it mag-checked, regardless, before making any decision on reusing it. I'd already been contemplating putting a better crank in it even before this weekend.

I'd REALLY rather not have to switch to an external oil system. After looking over the external systems in Andy's and Chuck Senatore's BB books, it's just that much more complexity I want to avoid for a street car.

It's a shame the block has already had ProGram 3-bolt caps added, bushed lifter bores, etc., only to have this happen to it.

Heres my take. Rod big ends measure ok and have no discoloration,use em. Piston to wall clearance within acceptable limits,use em. Crank not out of round, tapered, or cracked, polish it and use it. Running with a few low spots (crank,piston and cylinder wall scratches) really doesn't matter in the scheme of things. Broken oil pick-up, no big deal. Drill it out and clean threads w/tap. You could replace all this stuff,make it perfect, to what end? How much quicker will you go? If your gonna replace some parts you might as well do em all.
How many engines are running with a little extra clearance and a few scuffs. Problems begin with cracked,fatigued,and substandard parts. I'd rather run with a little wear myself.
Good luck Doug

I haven't ruled out any options at this point. And I'm that I'll be able to remove what's left of the broken pickup tube and still have usable threads left to put in a new one.

FWIW, this exercise isn't looking for new HP, it's trying to keep what I have... and keep it from going "Boom!" on the way driving the car to or from the track.

EDIT: So, in case the pickup threads in the block are hosed... does anyone run the Milodon 30931 pan w/ the external feed in a stock-chassis + headers combination?

BTW, Brad Penn / original or newer Kendall GT1 never left any sludge in my motors.
Another piston skirt option might be having them coated.

Brad, i need to go to ups later this week, if you can wait, i'll send you some easy outs that should work.

the sludge doesnt sound good to me at all, could be a combination of hot oil, bearing and piston material

Brad...I know that area is sometimes thin....but could you install a 1/2" NPT Helicoil?

On your broken pickup tube, it is tubing which is thin walled, I would use a internal pipe removal tool to get it out. It place's constant pressure on the inside wall to remove instead of just at the top. Also you might not have enough depth for a easy out to work. If your threads are goobbered up just retap, coat with a good sealant.

A #7 Easyout should work to remove your broken pickup. Good luck!

Fix for the broken pick up tube.. $12.00 @ Home Depot

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materi...catalogId=10053

Brad, I have found that the Ross piston skirts seem to be very delicate, they look like there damaged and worn when there not I have since switch to Diamond psitons because of that, it's hard to explain to a customer that a ugly looking piston skirt isn't really hurt I'm assuming your going to rering it, have your machine shop hone the block enough to make the cylinders round and straight and stick a set of rings on them pistons if they measure okay and the ringland side clearance is okay, not more than .0035 side clearances Mag the crank and if it is not crack have it polished and measure it then, if it's still round throw some bearings in it and run it. I hear you on the block, my 527 has bushed lifter bores, ductile iroon main caps on all five mains and so on, hard to let a block go with that much work in it. All that work was done before the World blocks came out I'm getting ready to throw some(two) pistons, rings and bearings in it and give it another go I melted two pistons in it last time on the dyno Oh well, motors are like kitty cats if you pull thier tale long enough they will bite you

How do you make a pass being 3 quarts down and not know

I should re-phrase that, how do you not know you're 3 quarts down, and proceed to make a pass? That's more irresponsible than a teenage kid driving their car 5k miles without so much as checking the oil .

Wondering if the cracked pickup tube could have caused the oil starvation?
I have a easy out at the shop that you can pickup at most hardware stores. I use it to remove corrated heater hose nipples from GM aluminum intake manifolds.

Quick update: It turns out some of the piston's skirts definitely have more than just "light polishing" marks. One in particular showed some obvious scoring, although most of that seems to have cleaned up after hitting it w/ some 400 wet-or-dry and WD-40. However, the corresponding wear marks in the cylinders still make me think that I should re-hone it after touching up all the pistons.

If the pistons & cylinders hadn't show so much wear, I'd have been OK w/ putting them right back in w/ the same rings. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a reasonable option after seeing things up close.

Next step: See if my local Home Despot has one of those slick internal 1/2" pipe wrenches and take a shot at removing the broken pickup tube. Stay tuned...

CBK - Isn't it time to update your signature from:

"Just me and The Haze now. It waits in darkness... soon, soon "

to:

"Just me and The Haze now. It waits in darkness... eventually, eventually " ?

there, now i can say i fixed something today.

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CBK - Isn't it time to update your signature from:

"Just me and The Haze now. It waits in darkness... soon, soon "

to:

"Just me and The Haze now. It waits in darkness for eternity... " ?

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Another update: Yep, the local HD had a set of those slick internal pipe wrenches.

And what was left of the pipe was too thick (or distorted) for any of them to work.

So I improvised using something w/ a long taper (a cylinder head stand, believe it or not) that allowed me to wedge it in and managed to get the broken piece out anyway. As easy as that came out, I'm confused why the pickup twisted and snapped off. The best news is the threads in the block still look good.

I also mocked up the new Milodon pickup I bought w/ the new pan and it doesn't fully tighten until it's turned 30-40 degrees past where it "should" stop to be level w/ the bottom of the pan. I figure it'll need some sort of sealant on the pickup that will allow me to position it properly, yet not allow for any air leaks around the perimeter of the threaded section. If anyone has any preferences for what to use here, let me know.

Also took a better look at the cylinder bores and there's no way I can just put it back together as is w/ a clear conscious. It's definitely going to need to be honed. So much for just slapping a new set of bearings in it and throwing it back in the car.

Sorry the internal pipe wrench tool didn't work for you. If it came out that easy there might have been a crack in the tube to cause it to starve for oil. There are a number of products you could use to seal up the threaded area on the tube . You should check out the auto parts store , you need a sealant that will semi harden, and of coarse oil resistant.

Sooo still haven't answered why you don't check your oil before making passes .

He did, he's just talked to too many Stock racers.

Good one

It`s my job.........some things just tweek me a bit.

I had the same issue....I used the can of teflon paste you buy at home depot, etc. If for sealing pipes carrying steam, oil, etc.

The pickup tube on most big block oil pans is long, and heavy.
After twice finding cracked tubes + some of my friends having cracks. I welded a brace from the windage tray to the tube to support it from G forces, oil slosh etc. That worked.
I and some of my friends have since gone to static/swinging pick ups in the pan.
Nothing quite like taking engine apart and having the pick up break off when HARDLY ANY force was exerted to remove it. Don

I also mocked up the new Milodon pickup I bought w/ the new pan and it doesn't fully tighten until it's turned 30-40 degrees past where it "should" stop to be level w/ the bottom of the pan. I figure it'll need some sort of sealant on the pickup that will allow me to position it properly, yet not allow for any air leaks around the perimeter of the threaded section. If anyone has any preferences for what to use here, let me know.



Brad could you find a thin nut and thread it onto the pickup first, then thread it into the block? kind of like indexing a spark plug? Just a suggestion/question maybe I'm way off.

After you smooth those piston skirts, mic your pistons and make sure they're still in spec. The heat generated by friction can change the piston skirt shape.

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Quick update: It turns out some of the piston's skirts definitely have more than just "light polishing" marks. One in particular showed some obvious scoring, although most of that seems to have cleaned up after hitting it w/ some 400 wet-or-dry and WD-40. However, the corresponding wear marks in the cylinders still make me think that I should re-hone it after touching up all the pistons.

If the pistons & cylinders hadn't show so much wear, I'd have been OK w/ putting them right back in w/ the same rings. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a reasonable option after seeing things up close.

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