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Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: HEMICUDA] #680717
04/26/10 07:05 PM
04/26/10 07:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,487
It's a dry heat
gtx6970 Offline
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Quote:

Doesn't any one of the cars in your fleet have an original window sticker? Yep, that's pretty rare.
It almost sounds like you're calling me dishonest






Absolutely not, in any way shape or form.

But having all that info puts you in a league of the few and far between. I doubt many cars are even in the orignal owners hands and even fewer survived with the original paperwork intact.

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: gtx6970] #680718
04/26/10 07:11 PM
04/26/10 07:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Sixpak Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Doesn't any one of the cars in your fleet have an original window sticker? Yep, that's pretty rare.
It almost sounds like you're calling me dishonest






Absolutely not, in any way shape or form.

But having all that info puts you in a league of the few and far between. I doubt many cars are even in the orignal owners hands and even fewer survived with the original paperwork intact.




Or that many of them left the factory with the WRONG build sheets tucked into similar upholstery that was destined for two cars....

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Sixpak] #680719
04/26/10 07:43 PM
04/26/10 07:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,193
NEW JERSEY
AARCONV Offline
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NEW JERSEY
my convertible did not have one, but it would be nice to have a repro done...what would have to be guessed? on the bcs that is not found on the vin or fender tag?

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: AARCONV] #680720
04/26/10 07:53 PM
04/26/10 07:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA Offline OP
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Quote:

my convertible did not have one, but it would be nice to have a repro done...what would have to be guessed? on the bcs that is not found on the vin or fender tag?




Vehicle order and sequence number.

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: HEMICUDA] #680721
04/26/10 08:16 PM
04/26/10 08:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA Offline OP
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Medina, Ohio
I just had a 1-1/2 hour conversation with Dave Walden about the possibility of reproducing build sheets. His reluctance, as well as mine, lasted the first 1-1/4 hours of the conversation until we came up with a tentative plan. We are thinking about the possibility of reproducing perfect BCS for cars that have their original, no exceptions. Creating indistinguishable sheets for cars without its original WILL NOT be an option since you can’t guess at the VOM or sequence number. We all go to extremes to recreate our cars as they were the day it was made so why not display it with an absolutely perfect sheet as it was the day it was printed. If a color copy works for you perfect, if you want true absolute for the car? That can be done also.

IF this does come to pass, the only sheets that initially will be made are the 69-70 bi color sheet only. If the market is there and can justify the production run volume required for the blanks, other years will be considered. IF we move forward on this plan, DO NOT call to have a sheet made for a car that is currently without one. We will have to discuss further a plan to reproduce sheets for cars that are without them.

In short, if you do not have your original sheet for your car, you will not be eligible to purchase a perfect reproduction. We are still discussing the logistics of the possibility of producing sheets for cars that are without them and still protect the integrity of the cars that have their original.

Michael C. Ross – Owner
B/E & A Restoration Parts, Inc.
www.beaparts.com
330-725-3990

Last edited by HEMICUDA; 04/26/10 08:19 PM.
Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: HEMICUDA] #680722
04/26/10 08:27 PM
04/26/10 08:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,844
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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this thread has $$$ written all over it.

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: HEMICUDA] #680723
04/26/10 08:29 PM
04/26/10 08:29 PM
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Posts: 731
NY
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XXHEMI Offline
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Mike

Your saying that you would only make a copy if the original was available?

If the owner had the original couldn't that be copied on a printer for about 17cents? If the car owner is only looking to have it with the car at a show I think this would be exceptible no?

I am not calling anyone dishonest but I personal see no good comming out of this! If you have all the paper work in the world and the build sheet is gone thems the breaks. Does anyone think a reproduced build sheet would add value to the car noing it was reproduced? No not today but how about ten years from now when there's more build sheets then cars

The other thing that comes to mind is has it already been done!!!!

That's my opinion which really means nothing but I think you where asking?
Ed Cook

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: gtx6970] #680724
04/26/10 08:33 PM
04/26/10 08:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
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Pinelands , NJ
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joelson6 Offline
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Quote:

I'll probably regret this , But

But , I don't see the point of a repop sheet 'IF' you have the orignal.
And 'IF' you have the original just wander down to any local printer and have a photo copy made. Store the original and call it Done.







and that's exactly what I do. with all the documentation i like to display with my car, i'm not showing the originals. that's like asking the devil not to play with fire. things may turn up missing. so i make copies and keep the originals safe at home. it would be cool to have a duplicate made to "show".

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: HEMICUDA] #680725
04/26/10 08:34 PM
04/26/10 08:34 PM
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NJ
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moparply Offline
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Mike,

Is there any way the vehicle order and sequence number could be figured out for cars missing their sheets?

What if all of the collected information by ALL of the registries was put into one database, just have one registry, then use that information?

Is the information at the largest registry off limits?

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #680726
04/26/10 08:38 PM
04/26/10 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
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Quote:

His reluctance, as well as mine, lasted the first 1-1/4 hours of the conversation until we came up with a tentative plan. We are thinking about the possibility of reproducing perfect BCS for cars that have their original, no exceptions. Creating indistinguishable sheets for cars without its original WILL NOT be an option since you can’t guess at the VOM or sequence number. We all go to extremes to recreate our cars as they were the day it was made so why not display it with an absolutely perfect sheet as it was the day it was printed. If a color copy works for you perfect, if you want true absolute for the car? That can be done also.





So what if a guy has only a partial sheet which contains the VON and SEQ # but is missing the rest?

I agree with the others here who feel there is no "good" ending if sheets are sold, and no good reason to make them for those that offer a good/complete sheet to copy (as mentioned, why would they need a new one if that were the case?).

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: XXHEMI] #680727
04/26/10 08:43 PM
04/26/10 08:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
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flypaper Offline
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jersey shore
my bcs is still in the same place it was left from
the factory under the front seat.
it can stay there for the next owner to get the thrill
i could care less..

what make you think is that this can
be done so very easily by honest people.....
i/m glad i don't buy restored high dollar cars
because of the tag/documentation fraud and how easy it is
to do these days..

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #680728
04/26/10 09:05 PM
04/26/10 09:05 PM
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Posts: 43,615
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

His reluctance, as well as mine, lasted the first 1-1/4 hours of the conversation until we came up with a tentative plan. We are thinking about the possibility of reproducing perfect BCS for cars that have their original, no exceptions. Creating indistinguishable sheets for cars without its original WILL NOT be an option since you can’t guess at the VOM or sequence number. We all go to extremes to recreate our cars as they were the day it was made so why not display it with an absolutely perfect sheet as it was the day it was printed. If a color copy works for you perfect, if you want true absolute for the car? That can be done also.





So what if a guy has only a partial sheet which contains the VON and SEQ # but is missing the rest?

I agree with the others here who feel there is no "good" ending if sheets are sold, and no good reason to make them for those that offer a good/complete sheet to copy (as mentioned, why would they need a new one if that were the case?).




Stop the nonsense already guys! Do us all a favor and destroy ALL fake sheets and equipment and give this insanity up. The ONLY reason to make fake broadcast sheets is very simple, to make money! Thanks for bringing our beloved Mopars into the Corvette world...


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Rhinodart] #680729
04/26/10 09:18 PM
04/26/10 09:18 PM
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Posts: 8,161
DELAWARE
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1 thing i think that dave has always showed us is that ITS NOT about the $$$

i believe dave is the kind of guy that if you told him it couldnt be done, that he could + would do it

look at it like this, if he does make them, it just leveled the playing field on all the cars, and if anything, lowered the value/desirability of the high dollar cars with them so they are more affordable for all of us.

itll sort of void out the specialness of the buildsheet cars of the past

and hey, that rare superbird convertible may appear,

not, just kidding

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #680730
04/26/10 09:40 PM
04/26/10 09:40 PM

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Quote:

....and no good reason to make them...




Hi Scott,
I actually agree with the quote above but have trouble with a linear train of thought as it relates to this industry. I manufacture MANY products that require licensing and approval from the BIG THREE. I can't understand the backward logic and the inconsistencies in the way many people feel.

When I reproduce VIN decals the customer wants them to look exactly like the original. If I am even a hair off in the appearance, it is not acceptable! These items carry federal implications with regards to their importance. I also am licensed to manufacture Monroney labels better known as Window Stickers. It took Chrysler over a year to finally grant the approval to do these. When I reproduce them, the customer expects them to look exactly like the originals with ALL the proper information. I am exclusively licensed to manufacture the seat-belt labels. My customers expect those to have the exact detail that the originals possessed. Just recently you and I have worked on the Carburetor labels and alternator diodes for these cars. Again, absolute factory detail and appearance was a mandate for these items!

Of ALL the items I mentioned the Broadcast Sheet is the LEAST significant with regards to actual "documentation" and legal importance. As a hobby we restore the vehicles to look and represent EXACTLY what rolled off the assembly line. How can EVERYTHING revolve around the same theme of looking "EXACT" but then one piece of the puzzle is viewed in a different light? I realize that Broadcast Sheets are considered to be this "holy Grail" but by whose authority? Is the golden rule really what it is or should it be changed to "WHO EVER HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES"?

Don't you find it odd that those who make a living from all of this documentation are also the ones who made the rules that Govern it? The Window Sticker and Invoice carries far greater importance that the Broadcast Sheet. I realize that they all possess information a slight bit different from each other but those documents (window sticker & invoice) are truly federal documents! The Broadcast sheet never was considered a legal document! This hobby unofficially/officially deemed it as such!

The "establishment" used the Build sheet for official documentation because they realized that their market (and $) would be considerably smaller if they relied on just the WS and Invoice as the major source for proper documentation. So what happens many years later? We tear these cars apart to fix them up and what do we discover? The "trash" that was left hidden by the employees from the assembly line. Since 98% of all people (back then) threw away things like the Window Stickers & Invoice, the powers to be decided to make the Build sheets the "new" accepted documentation of choice! It would have been difficult to build their business on the rarity of the Window Sticker and Invoice paperwork......wouldn't you think? So they make some rules and get everyone to suck into the idea and notion. And what do you know.....it just so happens to fall in line with the expertise and services they provide. Wow....what a coincidence! It is the classic case of, "If you build it.... we will come!"

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS #680731
04/26/10 09:56 PM
04/26/10 09:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,615
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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Monroney labels have been considered novelties for years, so you want the Broadcast Sheet to be a novelty also? Why? I could care less about your VIN decals, the cars I am interested in never had them and many of the "documents" you reproduce are not used on these cars. The 69 and earlier cars have very few docs that make them what they are, the Broadcast Sheet is one of the very best ways to help document these cars. Forget about Hemi Cuda's and anything built for 1970 and up for just a moment and consider the earlier cars. 1969 was the first year the VIN was stamped on the body's themselves so they are the start of the layman being able to make sure the car that they bought has at least some pedigree. 1968 was a good start with VIN numbers being stamped on many of the major components, but the VON was the only number stamped on the body, so if you do not have a data tag or Broadcast Sheet you are S.O.L.!!! Earlier cars have much less data or documents to back up what you have. Maybe it is time for a poll on Moparts to find out what the majority thinks is the best route, three people who "think" it might be a good idea is not enough to decide what is best for the rest of the hobby...


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: XXHEMI] #680732
04/26/10 10:04 PM
04/26/10 10:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 441
SF Bay Area, CA
charger440sixpak Offline
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Well, I'm one of the guys who has a fairly intact BCS from under my rear seat but it has the spring marks and some missing pieces. All the codes are there and can be read but it's not easy in a couple of places so having a second 'restored' copy would be nice in order to show others.

My experience has been, the dishonest will always find a way to be dishonest, if they so choose.

I was wondering if it would be possible to have a watermark placed on the blank forms making them easy to identify without compromising the quality. The big pink 45 degree background lettering wouldn't be my preference, too obtrusive.

No matter where your opinions lie on this one, it seems inevitable that there will be better, more difficult to identify repro/resto/fake BCS's out there in the future. I think if ECS were to offer good quality, identifiable reproductions, all the honest guys would use them and not send business to the shadier characters doing 'accurately aged' fakes and selling them on feeBay. I think it would be more effective, long term, to control the activity rather than try to prevent it.

That should sound sorta familiar to any old drag racers around here...

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Rhinodart] #680733
04/26/10 10:09 PM
04/26/10 10:09 PM
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Posts: 29,656
Hamtramck, PA
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Alaskan_TA Offline
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I would hate to assume anything, so I'll ask about these two quotes from the locked thread;

"For the record....No I do not sell them and will not sell them."

"No need to worry Gene! These will never get out to the public. ECS is a very reputable company and will not ruin the reputation we have built with something so insignificant. "

Are you really going to make them available?


If so, why the apparent sudden change of heart?

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Rhinodart] #680734
04/26/10 10:13 PM
04/26/10 10:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,653
Near Reading PA USA
pinkduster Offline
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You can still spot them as fakes from a mile away. To make them look totally real, you'll have to put them under a seat spring for about 40 years so they get the impression of the springs and rust marks into the paper and the paper will need considerable time to turn the proper shade of not white.

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Rhinodart] #680735
04/26/10 10:17 PM
04/26/10 10:17 PM

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Quote:

The ONLY reason to make fake broadcast sheets is very simple, to make money! Thanks for bringing our beloved Mopars into the Corvette world...




Thank you for bringing this to my attention Jim. I did this SEVEN YEARS ago! It cost over $20K and I NEVER sold or offered them for sale to the public. For a moment there, you almost had me questioning why I originally did this!

Last week, last month, last year, five years ago, seven years ago, etc... you were not even aware of this scenario! Now because YOU know about it, things are suddenly in an uproar! I would have thought that everyone here would NOW know my intent had NOTHING to do with the almighty dollar. So did the situation become unacceptable because YOU have become aware of it or would all have remained "peaceful" if the subject matter were still unknown? It is quite comical how those who constantly chase and desire money, always conclude that it is the ONLY motivating factor for others! Again Jim, I appreciate you telling me my true intentions!

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS [Re: Alaskan_TA] #680736
04/26/10 10:31 PM
04/26/10 10:31 PM

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I believe your question was intended for me and not Rhinodart. Plain and simple Barry, I am finished answering your questions. I find it extremely insulting that you contact me behind the scenes, ask me to contact my sources to help bust the "crooks" (which I have done numerous times for you) and then publicly come here and insinuate that I am out to deceive the hobby. What ever I choose to do will be completely legal and ethical! Make sure to wash both of your faces the next time you shower.

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