A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS

Quote:

I'll probably regret this , But

But , I don't see the point of a repop sheet 'IF' you have the orignal.
And 'IF' you have the original just wander down to any local printer and have a photo copy made. Store the original and call it Done.

If , you don't have the original and don't have either the data tag( good chance) It'll be very unlikely you have the original window sticker. You WILL be guessing at the VON and Build date numbers. Sure everything else is obtainable with effort. But if your guessing on part of it, why bother

Bill, the reason I would is that I would like to display it. I had two in my car. The one behind the glove box disintegrated into powder and flakes. The one behind the seat cushion had those great black "S" shaped imprints all over it. It is in safe keeping. Some of it is unreadable.

I think the copies should be made with a tell tale sign on them to keep them apart from originals. I would not mind the word COPY, REPLACEMENT or FACSIMILE superimposed on a reproduction. (Like large outline letterng on a 45 degree angle in red.) I just want one that is readable that I can display with the car. I will keep the original safe.

FYI, the crime labs can all tell the actual age of a document regardless of its appearance. The FBI in a case here years ago proved the document's paper and printing was the age it needed to be authentic but the signature was made with a pen whose ink had not been invented when the document was printed making the signature bogus.

Craig

Craig

Posted By: AARCONV

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/26/10 11:43 PM

my convertible did not have one, but it would be nice to have a repro done...what would have to be guessed? on the bcs that is not found on the vin or fender tag?

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/26/10 11:53 PM

Quote:

my convertible did not have one, but it would be nice to have a repro done...what would have to be guessed? on the bcs that is not found on the vin or fender tag?

Vehicle order and sequence number.

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:16 AM

I just had a 1-1/2 hour conversation with Dave Walden about the possibility of reproducing build sheets. His reluctance, as well as mine, lasted the first 1-1/4 hours of the conversation until we came up with a tentative plan. We are thinking about the possibility of reproducing perfect BCS for cars that have their original, no exceptions. Creating indistinguishable sheets for cars without its original WILL NOT be an option since you can�t guess at the VOM or sequence number. We all go to extremes to recreate our cars as they were the day it was made so why not display it with an absolutely perfect sheet as it was the day it was printed. If a color copy works for you perfect, if you want true absolute for the car? That can be done also.

IF this does come to pass, the only sheets that initially will be made are the 69-70 bi color sheet only. If the market is there and can justify the production run volume required for the blanks, other years will be considered. IF we move forward on this plan, DO NOT call to have a sheet made for a car that is currently without one. We will have to discuss further a plan to reproduce sheets for cars that are without them.

In short, if you do not have your original sheet for your car, you will not be eligible to purchase a perfect reproduction. We are still discussing the logistics of the possibility of producing sheets for cars that are without them and still protect the integrity of the cars that have their original.

Michael C. Ross � Owner
B/E & A Restoration Parts, Inc.
www.beaparts.com
330-725-3990

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:27 AM

this thread has $$$ written all over it.

Posted By: XXHEMI

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:29 AM

Mike

Your saying that you would only make a copy if the original was available?

If the owner had the original couldn't that be copied on a printer for about 17cents? If the car owner is only looking to have it with the car at a show I think this would be exceptible no?

I am not calling anyone dishonest but I personal see no good comming out of this! If you have all the paper work in the world and the build sheet is gone thems the breaks. Does anyone think a reproduced build sheet would add value to the car noing it was reproduced? No not today but how about ten years from now when there's more build sheets then cars

The other thing that comes to mind is has it already been done!!!!

That's my opinion which really means nothing but I think you where asking?
Ed Cook

Posted By: joelson6

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:33 AM

Quote:

I'll probably regret this , But

But , I don't see the point of a repop sheet 'IF' you have the orignal.
And 'IF' you have the original just wander down to any local printer and have a photo copy made. Store the original and call it Done.

and that's exactly what I do. with all the documentation i like to display with my car, i'm not showing the originals. that's like asking the devil not to play with fire. things may turn up missing. so i make copies and keep the originals safe at home. it would be cool to have a duplicate made to "show".

Posted By: moparply

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:34 AM

Mike,

Is there any way the vehicle order and sequence number could be figured out for cars missing their sheets?

What if all of the collected information by ALL of the registries was put into one database, just have one registry, then use that information?

Is the information at the largest registry off limits?

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:38 AM

Quote:

His reluctance, as well as mine, lasted the first 1-1/4 hours of the conversation until we came up with a tentative plan. We are thinking about the possibility of reproducing perfect BCS for cars that have their original, no exceptions. Creating indistinguishable sheets for cars without its original WILL NOT be an option since you can�t guess at the VOM or sequence number. We all go to extremes to recreate our cars as they were the day it was made so why not display it with an absolutely perfect sheet as it was the day it was printed. If a color copy works for you perfect, if you want true absolute for the car? That can be done also.

So what if a guy has only a partial sheet which contains the VON and SEQ # but is missing the rest?

I agree with the others here who feel there is no "good" ending if sheets are sold, and no good reason to make them for those that offer a good/complete sheet to copy (as mentioned, why would they need a new one if that were the case?).

Posted By: flypaper

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 12:43 AM

my bcs is still in the same place it was left from
the factory

under the front seat.
it can stay there for the next owner to get the thrill
i could care less..

what make you think is that this can
be done so very easily by honest people.....
i/m glad i don't buy restored high dollar cars
because of the tag/documentation fraud and how easy it is
to do these days..

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 01:18 AM

1 thing i think that dave has always showed us is that ITS NOT about the $$$

i believe dave is the kind of guy that if you told him it couldnt be done, that he could + would do it

look at it like this, if he does make them, it just leveled the playing field on all the cars, and if anything, lowered the value/desirability of the high dollar cars with them so they are more affordable for all of us.

itll sort of void out the specialness of the buildsheet cars of the past

and hey, that rare superbird convertible may appear,

not, just kidding

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 01:40 AM

Quote:

....and no good reason to make them...

Hi Scott,
I actually agree with the quote above but have trouble with a linear train of thought as it relates to this industry. I manufacture MANY products that require licensing and approval from the BIG THREE. I can't understand the backward logic and the inconsistencies in the way many people feel.

When I reproduce VIN decals the customer wants them to look exactly like the original. If I am even a hair off in the appearance, it is not acceptable! These items carry federal implications with regards to their importance. I also am licensed to manufacture Monroney labels better known as Window Stickers. It took Chrysler over a year to finally grant the approval to do these. When I reproduce them, the customer expects them to look exactly like the originals with ALL the proper information. I am exclusively licensed to manufacture the seat-belt labels. My customers expect those to have the exact detail that the originals possessed. Just recently you and I have worked on the Carburetor labels and alternator diodes for these cars. Again, absolute factory detail and appearance was a mandate for these items!

Of ALL the items I mentioned the Broadcast Sheet is the LEAST significant with regards to actual "documentation" and legal importance. As a hobby we restore the vehicles to look and represent EXACTLY what rolled off the assembly line. How can EVERYTHING revolve around the same theme of looking "EXACT" but then one piece of the puzzle is viewed in a different light? I realize that Broadcast Sheets are considered to be this "holy Grail" but by whose authority? Is the golden rule really what it is or should it be changed to "WHO EVER HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES"?

Don't you find it odd that those who make a living from all of this documentation are also the ones who made the rules that Govern it? The Window Sticker and Invoice carries far greater importance that the Broadcast Sheet. I realize that they all possess information a slight bit different from each other but those documents (window sticker & invoice) are truly federal documents! The Broadcast sheet never was considered a legal document! This hobby unofficially/officially deemed it as such!

The "establishment" used the Build sheet for official documentation because they realized that their market (and $) would be considerably smaller if they relied on just the WS and Invoice as the major source for proper documentation. So what happens many years later? We tear these cars apart to fix them up and what do we discover? The "trash" that was left hidden by the employees from the assembly line. Since 98% of all people (back then) threw away things like the Window Stickers & Invoice, the powers to be decided to make the Build sheets the "new" accepted documentation of choice! It would have been difficult to build their business on the rarity of the Window Sticker and Invoice paperwork......wouldn't you think? So they make some rules and get everyone to suck into the idea and notion. And what do you know.....it just so happens to fall in line with the expertise and services they provide. Wow....what a coincidence! It is the classic case of, "If you build it.... we will come!"

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 01:56 AM

Monroney labels have been considered novelties for years, so you want the Broadcast Sheet to be a novelty also? Why?

I could care less about your VIN decals, the cars I am interested in never had them and many of the "documents" you reproduce are not used on these cars. The 69 and earlier cars have very few docs that make them what they are, the Broadcast Sheet is one of the very best ways to help document these cars. Forget about Hemi Cuda's and anything built for 1970 and up for just a moment and consider the earlier cars. 1969 was the first year the VIN was stamped on the body's themselves so they are the start of the layman being able to make sure the car that they bought has at least some pedigree. 1968 was a good start with VIN numbers being stamped on many of the major components, but the VON was the only number stamped on the body, so if you do not have a data tag or Broadcast Sheet you are S.O.L.!!! Earlier cars have much less data or documents to back up what you have. Maybe it is time for a poll on Moparts to find out what the majority thinks is the best route, three people who "think" it might be a good idea is not enough to decide what is best for the rest of the hobby...

Posted By: charger440sixpak

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:04 AM

Well, I'm one of the guys who has a fairly intact BCS from under my rear seat but it has the spring marks and some missing pieces. All the codes are there and can be read but it's not easy in a couple of places so having a second 'restored' copy would be nice in order to show others.

My experience has been, the dishonest will always find a way to be dishonest, if they so choose.

I was wondering if it would be possible to have a watermark placed on the blank forms making them easy to identify without compromising the quality. The big pink 45 degree background lettering wouldn't be my preference, too obtrusive.

No matter where your opinions lie on this one, it seems inevitable that there will be better, more difficult to identify repro/resto/fake BCS's out there in the future. I think if ECS were to offer good quality, identifiable reproductions, all the honest guys would use them and not send business to the shadier characters doing 'accurately aged' fakes and selling them on feeBay. I think it would be more effective, long term, to control the activity rather than try to prevent it.

That should sound sorta familiar to any old drag racers around here...

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:09 AM

I would hate to assume anything, so I'll ask about these two quotes from the locked thread;

"For the record....No I do not sell them and will not sell them."

"No need to worry Gene! These will never get out to the public. ECS is a very reputable company and will not ruin the reputation we have built with something so insignificant. "

Are you really going to make them available?

If so, why the apparent sudden change of heart?

Posted By: pinkduster

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:13 AM

You can still spot them as fakes from a mile away. To make them look totally real, you'll have to put them under a seat spring for about 40 years so they get the impression of the springs and rust marks into the paper and the paper will need considerable time to turn the proper shade of not white.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:17 AM

Quote:

The ONLY reason to make fake broadcast sheets is very simple, to make money! Thanks for bringing our beloved Mopars into the Corvette world...

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Jim. I did this SEVEN YEARS ago! It cost over $20K and I NEVER sold or offered them for sale to the public. For a moment there, you almost had me questioning why I originally did this!

Last week, last month, last year, five years ago, seven years ago, etc... you were not even aware of this scenario! Now because YOU know about it, things are suddenly in an uproar! I would have thought that everyone here would NOW know my intent had NOTHING to do with the almighty dollar. So did the situation become unacceptable because YOU have become aware of it or would all have remained "peaceful" if the subject matter were still unknown? It is quite comical how those who constantly chase and desire money, always conclude that it is the ONLY motivating factor for others! Again Jim, I appreciate you telling me my true intentions!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:31 AM

I believe your question was intended for me and not Rhinodart. Plain and simple Barry, I am finished answering your questions. I find it extremely insulting that you contact me behind the scenes, ask me to contact my sources to help bust the "crooks" (which I have done numerous times for you) and then publicly come here and insinuate that I am out to deceive the hobby. What ever I choose to do will be completely legal and ethical! Make sure to wash both of your faces the next time you shower.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:47 AM

Quote:

Monroney labels have been considered novelties for years....I could care less about your VIN decals..... the cars I am interested in...is not enough to decide what is best for the rest of the hobby...

Wow Jim,
And you consider me to be the "arrogant" one? Do you see a resounding theme of "you" and "I" in everything you convey? Why don't you alter a Monroney label and think about it only being a "novelty" while sitting in a Federal Prison? As I said earlier....did this become a "bad" thing for what it actually is or because YOU are now aware of it? Hmmmmmm

and I am the arrogant one....

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:51 AM

I heard rumors half-dozen years ago about repro sheets but did not know it was you.

Now that it is out in the open you are darned right I take exception to what you are doing! I am calling you out right now that you are not a true Mopar guy if you would even consider offering these fake/bogus/trash Broadcast Sheets even to people who just want copies of thier original sheets for protection! It makes no difference why you are doing it, and your ethics are a HUGE reason why you would make these available.

True Mopar people will be judging your actions from now on because we now know what your true intentions are!

Please go comiserate with your GM buddies and leave us the he11 alone!

I am done for the night, please carry on convincing yourself that what you are doing is fair and ethical...

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 02:55 AM

I said this before that the making of broadcast sheets for our hobby was done along time before Darrel or Dave got involved with them.

Who sets the standards to which the mopar hobby will follow on this issue. Will it be my standards or will it be the majority of peoples standards or will there be any standards or ethic at all.

Posted By: pinkduster

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:00 AM

I think a "poll" should be added to this topic.

A. You are with Rhino on this.

B. You are with ECS on this.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:06 AM

Simple test on how to tell an original sheet vs. a reproduction sheet.

You will need an original sheet (or fragment) for this, a reproduction sheet & two drops of water.

In the example shown, the original fragment is from my 1970 Coronet & the full sheet is one Dave provided to me. (Thanks Dave!) Note how after a few seconds the water drop soaked into the one provided by Dave but it stays on top of the original.

I tried this with several original sheets with the same results.

Attached picture 5949193-watertestreproductionbroadcastsheetvs.original.JPG

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:20 AM

Quote:

It is quite comical how those who constantly chase and desire money, always conclude that it is the ONLY motivating factor for others! Again Jim, I appreciate you telling me my true intentions!

So Dave are you saying that all the products that you offer you sell at a LOSS ???

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:31 AM

Quote:

Simple test on how to tell an original sheet vs. a reproduction sheet.

Barry....you HAVE to get your thoughts away from constant suspicions that we are trying to make reproduction build sheets in order to fool people. I have no problem with you telling the World the variances that you have found as they relate to the "real" ones. As I said before, we are a very successful company built on quality, honesty, service and ethics. I do not care if these things are ever used for anything but kindling paper for the fire place! Every product we manufacture is made to help our customers in one fashion or another. For the ten millionth time for goodness sakes......WE OBTAIN THE PROPER LICENSING FOR ANYTHING WE SELL WITH THE CHRYSLER LOGO! WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO GROUP US WITH THE COUNTERFEITERS AND THOSE WHO HIDE IN THE SHADOWS AND DO THINGS FOR DISHONEST GAIN? They do not go through the proper channels to offer the things they do! THAT is what makes them the "crooks" Barry!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:41 AM

Quote:

Dave are you saying that all the products that you offer you sell at a LOSS ???

Quite honestly John I would have to answer "YES" to that question for quite a few of our products. Our Sister company (www.ecsvin.com) pays for the development of MANY things that we offer through our Classic product line. I am constantly heckled by our accountant for "borrowing" profits from one to pay for the other. Our Window Stickers cost in the THOUSANDS of dollars to manufacture and we lost anywhere from $45-$50 on everyone we sold. We had to stop making them. We invested thousands of dollars in our Carpeting line and might never break even on the program. There are countless items that we may never be profitable with but I love the industry and it is my passion. Don't get me wrong! We do very well in some areas but if it was left to Howard Rosen (our financial adviser) there would be MANY products discontinued that a lot of you guys have enjoyed putting on your vehicles!

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:43 AM

I thought you were not talking to me anymore?

If these sheets hits the streets, sooner or later a car seller will try & pass one off as original.

The water test is a simple field test that the potential buyers can use to see if the seller is honest, that is all.

I am timing an original sheet now, 41 minutes & the water drop is still on top.

Personally, if they are not made, there would be no need to scrutinize them. I am hoping that you choose to not make them myself.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 03:54 AM

Quote:

I thought you were not talking to me anymore?...
If these sheets hits the streets, sooner or later a car seller will try & pass one off as original.

Barry, You will find that I am quite rationale to talk to when your comments are not filled with sarcasm and negative innuendos. I appreciate any "genuine" comments or questions of concern. Thank you!

I understand your concerns Barry but couldn't that logic apply with anything we sell? We can only do the best we can to ensure that unethical things don't happen. The US treasury has not stopped printing currency because there are a bunch of crooks associated with trying to counterfeit it! Sporting Goods stores still sell Baseball Bats for Sports even though crooks use them to beat people! How reserved should we be in trying to prevent every negative thing that could occur? If I acted on every little thing that the crooks "might" do, I would have to close the business!

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 04:08 AM

I have a '69 GTS Big Block 383 console automatic convertible. The car is LOADED with original options. It is one of 39 built in '69. Many of the options can only be found or documented on the broadcast sheet. The rarest option mine came with was the W23 code Kelsey-Hayes "Recall" wheels. This code ONLY shows up on the broadcast sheet (and the window sticker if it was still around). I have the original broadcast sheet for my car and have been told by the GTS registry that the car is definetly 1 of 1 built with those options. I believe that with fake sheets floating around the integrity of my car's actual original broadcast sheet that survived and fully documents a super rare, highly optioned car might come into question. And there will suddenly be more W23 code cars showing up that were never really built. Nothing good will come of reproducing broadcast sheets.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 04:11 AM

Quote:

I could care less about your VIN decals, the cars I am interested in never had them and many of the "documents" you reproduce are not used on these cars.

Quote:

you are darned right I take exception to what you are doing!

Which is it Jim? Like I said earlier; what has actually changed except "YOUR" awareness. These are not for sale. I doubt seriously that it was my reproduction sheets you heard about! And for the record Jim, I am ten thousand times the "MOPAR GUY" that you are and I have the license to prove it!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS - 04/27/10 04:15 AM

Quote:

And there will suddenly be more W23 code cars showing up that were never really built. Nothing good will come or reproducing broadcast sheets.

By all means Eric you should turn in who ever might be responsible for doing something like that and shut them down. I am 100% with you on getting rid of those people who are trying to scam the industry!

A TRUE STORY REPRODUCTION BROADCAST SHEETS