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Bill,
Regarding #2 when did this change? As stated earlier, in 2000-01 I asked for this information and was told it was not available.

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At that time frame , it's wasn't avail.

Taken directly from Dave's ICCA site

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It is important to understand that this World Class Reference Manual is not the final word in Restoration or Judging. It is just the beginning of the assembly of objective information. This information will be used to assist in the restoration and impartially evaluate the historical correctness, workmanship, authenticity, and condition of a Mopar!

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I have enjoyed reading everyone's view points on vehicle judging. Thank you for you comments and feedback.

We are always looking for the best and the brightest to assist our program in the documentation of the variations that are found with vehicles and how to judge them properly. The ICCA has developed a program that is dynamic and we are always trying to improve in process and information. I personally spend at least 40 hours per doing research on vehicles and developing documentation of as much as possible in a clear and concise format to share with everyone.

I'm personally committed to develop an objective judging system for the Mopar hobby to use. It is true that I have 50% of the individuals involved with the ICCA that restore cars. However, I consider them the best at their craft with a great deal of experience and knowledge on how Chrysler Vehicle left the factory. I’m leading the ICCA effort and I DO NOT RESTORE CARS FOR A LIVING. I research them.

Over 10 years ago I started out with a vision to create a uniform judging manual because the hobby needed one. I have judged cars for over 20 years and at every event people would ask questions that most experienced people in the hobby know but there are many other that do not. I cannot tell you how many times that I have pointed out something that is incorrect and they stated “If I would have only known I would have done it properly”.

The first E body reference manual that we developed over 6 years ago was 200 pages today that same manual is 1000 pages. The first fastener reference manual that we came out with 7 years ago was 50 pages today that same manual is 250 pages.

There has been over 50 people from all over the world that have contributed information that has been inserted into the applicable manual. This information has helped me document specific details on cars that I have never known with their assistance. The most recent information has come from Roger Wilson. He has provided the ICCA, and ultimately the hobby with information on GTX’s that were few known. That knowledge is captured in a manual for all to use. One of the primary contributors and an ICCA team is Byron Fettig. Byron has taken apart more Chrysler cars then anyone in the world. Him and I compare information found almost daily. Needless to say his applicable discoveries go directly into the applicable ICCA manual.

Please keep the positive feedback coming and I will do my best moving forward to craft out the best material and develop the most objective judging program available.

Stop by and visit with us at the Mopar’s in the Park in June and we can show you where the program is heading. We have an exciting ICCA event planned for that show and an event in Sept on the east that you will see information shortly on a news stand near you. Please keep in mind that we have a number of judging options available from basic advice to true O.E. (with out the RED points) as discussed earlier in the thread.

Thanks for you time.

Dave Wise 248.393.3970

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Maybe I can add some answers to some questions. The Mopar Nationals OE program has been in constant evolvement since 1990. It has been updated and expanded every year as more things are learned and the restorations have become better. The judging guidelines and score sheets are protected to prevent copycat judging, and to preserve the integrity of the system. Think of it this way. You could spend years and years perfecting a painting like the Mona Lisa. Then, someone comes along, and sells a paint by numbers kit that ends up as good as your painting. What was all your efforts worth, to be diminished instantly?

As Dave has clearly pointed out, and I agree 100%, if someone wants to compete in the OE field then it is THEIR responsibility to research on their own! Why should someone get a manual to tell them how to do everything, when people like myself, have spent 20 years learning all the intricate details? I realize in todays society everyone wants an easy way out, but even if their was a manual on the correct way a car should look, you still have to figure out how to make the finishes look right. Making a driveshaft look right is not as simple as sanding it down smooth and puting in NOS U joints!
Honestly, if there were a book to completely detail how to perform an OE restoration, it would take 25 books! Don't beleive me? I have 6-4" three ring binders of JUST PHOTOS of our latest restoration. Now just think if I documented the restoration of every component on that car, and the over 1000 hours. Just look at all the hard work Dave Wise has done on the fastener manuals, and how big they are.

Now to address some question about the judging staff judging cars they restore-THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN-PERIOD. As I have stated before, I have competed and judged in the Mopar Nationals program over 10 years. If a judge enters a car for competition, he must judge a totally different class. For instance, the years I enetered cars in the stock "concourse" classes, I judged Pro Street. I now judge the Young Guns class as I like talking to the younger kids just getting into this hobby. I have cars judged in another class (OE mainly). There is no conflict of interest if the participants and judges have INTEGRITY-which Keith Rohm demands!

Hope this helps a little.

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Back in 2000 I bought a second owner 1968 Hemi Charger that was all numbers matching with history to the original owner that need restoration. I began looking around for a judging manual for OEM cars. I just wanted to have a guideline to make sure I didn't spend time and money doing something wrong during resto to this great car.

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One final point Darryl, read your above quote a few more times! Your appeal falls on deaf ears. You've had these cars since 2000. I didn't get my first Chrysler until 2002 and didn't even know HOW to spell MOPAR! Since that time I am on my third OE restored vehicle. The first two both won Gold awards in the OE Judging. I didn't have an OE Manual!! So whats your excuse? You have sat around for 10 years griping and complaining about how inept the OE program is because it won't "give" you a Manual. It all goes back to what I said in an earlier post, " The bottom line is that guys like you are looking for the easy way out. You are either too lazy to do the work..."

Where was the "Manual" for Paul Jacobs? He has more GOLD awards that anyone I know in the OE venue. If you want an "OE Manual" get off your rump and go make one! There have been plenty of people who have been successful without a "Manual" to this point. You want to know why? Because they made the commitment to do whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. You don't care about OE procedures Darryl! If you did.....YOU would be forging ahead and no one could stop you.

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Bill,
Regarding #2 when did this change? As stated earlier, in 2000-01 I asked for this information and was told it was not available.

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At that time frame , it's wasn't avail.

Taken directly from Dave's ICCA site

Quote:

---

It is important to understand that this World Class Reference Manual is not the final word in Restoration or Judging. It is just the beginning of the assembly of objective information. This information will be used to assist in the restoration and impartially evaluate the historical correctness, workmanship, authenticity, and condition of a Mopar!

---

---

I have enjoyed reading everyone's view points on vehicle judging. Thank you for you comments and feedback.

We are always looking for the best and the brightest to assist our program in the documentation of the variations that are found with vehicles and how to judge them properly. The ICCA has developed a program that is dynamic and we are always trying to improve in process and information. I personally spend at least 40 hours per doing research on vehicles and developing documentation of as much as possible in a clear and concise format to share with everyone.

I'm personally committed to develop an objective judging system for the Mopar hobby to use. It is true that I have 50% of the individuals involved with the ICCA that restore cars. However, I consider them the best at their craft with a great deal of experience and knowledge on how Chrysler Vehicle left the factory. I’m leading the ICCA effort and I DO NOT RESTORE CARS FOR A LIVING. I research them.

Over 10 years ago I started out with a vision to create a uniform judging manual because the hobby needed one. I have judged cars for over 20 years and at every event people would ask questions that most experienced people in the hobby know but there are many other that do not. I cannot tell you how many times that I have pointed out something that is incorrect and they stated “If I would have only known I would have done it properly”.

The first E body reference manual that we developed over 6 years ago was 200 pages today that same manual is 1000 pages. The first fastener reference manual that we came out with 7 years ago was 50 pages today that same manual is 250 pages.

There has been over 50 people from all over the world that have contributed information that has been inserted into the applicable manual. This information has helped me document specific details on cars that I have never known with their assistance. The most recent information has come from Roger Wilson. He has provided the ICCA, and ultimately the hobby with information on GTX’s that were few known. That knowledge is captured in a manual for all to use. One of the primary contributors and an ICCA team is Byron Fettig. Byron has taken apart more Chrysler cars then anyone in the world. Him and I compare information found almost daily. Needless to say his applicable discoveries go directly into the applicable ICCA manual.

Please keep the positive feedback coming and I will do my best moving forward to craft out the best material and develop the most objective judging program available.

Stop by and visit with us at the Mopar’s in the Park in June and we can show you where the program is heading. We have an exciting ICCA event planned for that show and an event in Sept on the east that you will see information shortly on a news stand near you. Please keep in mind that we have a number of judging options available from basic advice to true O.E. (with out the RED points) as discussed earlier in the thread.

Thanks for you time.

Dave Wise 248.393.3970

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It is true that I have 50% of the individuals involved with the ICCA that restore cars.


Regarding the above bolded area of your post:

This is typical throughout all other makes OEM judging as well ...

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OEM judging should be judge against a standard, NOT against another car\.

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You surely already realize that?

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Hi Steve,
It is quite obvious that this person has no clue concerning the OE judging process. There have only been about a half dozen people (who are deep in the program) that have tried to explain the intricacies of the program and why it is impossible to have a "one and only" manual for this particular venue. A few OE Judges have posted that manuals and printed data ARE readily available as it pertains to "protocol aspects" for these vehicles.

Dave Stuart, Steve Been and myself spent over 12 hours on Saturday trying to finish restoring the original Undercoating on the 1970 Valiant. The process and methods we were using were so unorthodox and unique that we were constantly joking about the "MANUAL" we would have needed for the process. It would have taken a large BOOK to explain what we were trying to accomplish for this ONE area and the next OE undercoat project may have required a completely DIFFERENT process depending on the starting point of THAT particular vehicle. Keep in mind that this guy ADMITTEDLY has NEVER been involved in an OE Restoration but continues to argue with those who have. I don't understand how a rocket-ship can make it to the Moon and back but I can assure you that I have better sense than to argue with a NASA engineer about specifics of how they should handle the Space Program or next mission! Like I said before, if this person ever takes the time to involve himself with an OE type restoration he will cringe with embarrassment from all the arguing and ridiculous comments he has made with regards to an OE "Manual". Until then it is like explaining trying to explain Calculus to a person with a level of first grade mathematics.

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OEM judging should be judge against a standard, NOT against another car\.

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?? Nats OE Gold Certificate judging is done like that. So is the ICCA judging they have done so far. You surely already realize that?

So are you talking about some general show field of 200 cars all being judged against a standard?

Keith pointed out there were levels of judging they offer. As the levels go up, the number of cars judged goes down, and the time spent/allotted for a judge per car goes up. Pretty simple concept. And a pretty well thought out process.

If you want to judge 200 cars in a day to minute detail, spending 1 hour judging each car, rifling through some 50 page judging manual, with high level qualified volunteers... I just don't think that is practical and I don't think that is going to happen.

Putting manuals and judging bodies aside...

Do you have some idea of the level of attention, time, and detail that would satisfy you when your car is being judged?

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My comments and thoughts ablout this are what I have been speaking of all along in this thread. From what I understand of the Nationals judging is that there is too much laditude for judges to award points based on their thoughs of what is right rather than what a judging standard states.

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OE is about being able to follow details and a specific criteria as it relates to originality. Take your spelling for instance! It is a tell tale sign that you have no inkling of what it takes to be involved with an OE process.
You really should have stopped at the beginning your second sentence. You have no understanding of the OE program or it's Judging!

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My comments and thoughts ablout this are what I have been speaking of all along in this thread. From what I understand of the Nationals judging is that there is too much laditude for judges to award points based on their thoughs of what is right rather than what a judging standard states.

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You guys make the modified classes look better and better!

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Honestly they are harder.

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I don't think that is completely true. The judging may be more subjective but not the actual work on a vehicle. I have done 3 "modified" cars and 3 OE cars. The Modified vehicles were not as difficult because there were no "rights" or "wrongs" to comply with. The only concern was the "craftsmanship" of how things were done. The paint, assembly hardware, metal finishes, chrome, etc.... was completely determined by MY taste and desire. The OE cars offered ZERO latitude concerning the style or variation of how they were restored. The craftsmanship was STILL there but had to match an EXACT predetermined appearance of someone else's craftsman ship that was performed 40 years ago. I can't wait to start the 1969 T/A project because I can deviate from all the drips and runs and other "flaws" that were done at the factory. In some aspects it will feel like I am on vacation not having to stick with every little nuance that was performed by the assembly plant. The paint will be nice and slick! It will have beautiful triple plated chrome! Perfect fit and finish! Ah....just the thought of those tasteful "modifications" brings a sense of calm and serene joy to my soul!