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What were talking about again??

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"OVER"
Restored! You see Paul when you place, hold or position the word "OVER" above something or "others", you can then consider it as being "OVER" Restored. When you move or store something from one location to another, that ALSO can be classified as being "Re-Stored"!
Brother Paul.....will you please be so kind as to lead us in a verse of Kumbayah?!

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Great thread with good insight from all sides.

I have the deepest respect for Dave Walden and others who go the extra several miles to bring a car to the closest version of perfection. Say what you want, their efforts help us all in more ways than one.

Along those lines I'd have to say what everyone already understands... serious multi car collectors, who make the 'high end' market, will almost always prefer OE standards. I'm guessing the occasional O.R. car that makes it into a collection is bought as a daily driver or some sort of sacrificial toy.

I'd add that below that upper end market 'factory appearing' 'FAST' cars have had an impact on the everyday enthusiast considering a resto. To ratchet on the initial question... what level of performance, if any, increases resale value? Do buyers prefer bone stock specs, high compression whiplash, or somewhere in the middle?

If you lean towards higher performance in your resto effort you're generally leaning away from OE.

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First off let me start by saying, you single handedly brought us to this definition discussion. Secondly, I am well aware of what the definitions are but wanted to point out that their usage varies.

So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)
So what did you restore. Restore the finish of the car, restore the shine to the paint, restore working power and function to non functioning parts, restore the appearance, etc etc.

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)
So what does modified refer to? Modified using parts that did not come on the car?? For instance, in discussing the flat unfolded carpet you replied "They are accurate reproductions but we never say they are original. They are original IN APPEARANCE."- So technically since this was not an original part of the car you did not restor it, but rather replaced it. Is it now modified according to your very strict definition?
Or can we imply that the understanding of the words "to restore a car" is generally meant to bring back in appearance what was originally there. I think the honest intent is in general appearance. Otherwise buying a replacement carpet instead of restoring the original (to the car) carpet would be considered modified.

This was my point earily. The definitions are understood but how they are applied is still up to opinion. So when you blasted someone for saying something was "over-restored" and got on your soap box to educate us all you opened the conversation up for debate, thus taking all of us off course. And for the record I believe 99% of us here understand what someone means when they say over-restored. In most cases they are saying to bring back to an original look in appearance with some deviations for personal preference to improve the car. Maybe a better quality paint job, maybe a nicer carpet that doesnt fade with UV rays, or a dash pad that doesn't crack after a year in the sun. It is personal taste on what the perceived improvement is. However, the OP was not saying I want to over restore the car with glass packs, shag carpet, and fuzzy dice. Im sure that was not his intent. I think he just wanted to say, will I get the most resale by sticking 100% to what the factory did in appearance (paint dabs, decals, drips, overspray etc) or can I do things like spray color on the underside, use stainless steel brake lines and go base coat clear coat and what kind of money can I expect?

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So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)

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First of all, they were never "MY" definitions. They were taken straight from Websters Dictionary. Second, you have (once again) twisted the definition of "Restore" to accommodate YOUR particular agenda. Why did you decide to ONLY grasp the "original" part of the definition? Didn't you notice that it ALSO referenced "usable" and "functioning condition" in CONJUNCTION with with the word "original". If anyone used your twisted rationale, the word "Restore" contradicts it's own definition and meaning! Maybe the expanded definition will make it a little easier to understand.

Main Entry: re·store
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈstȯr\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·stored; re·stor·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French restorer, from Latin restaurare to renew, rebuild, alteration of instaurare to renew
Date: 14th century

1 : to return (something, esp a work of art or building) to an original or former condition.
2 : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state.
3 : return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
4 : to put someone or something back in a former position.

Now is that simple enough? Is a different color or slick paint job the "former condition/original state" of an OE car? Is painting or powder coating bare metal components considered the "former condition/original state" of an OE car? Is a different tire size than the factory size considered the "former condition/original state" for an OE car? Do you understand the concept of "former condition/original state" as it is used in the definition "Restore" or do you want to play semantics, parse and twist those particular meanings too? Like I stated earlier, under your logic the word "Restore" is an illogical moot point and should be completely removed from the English language. Your logic would make it impossible to "restore" anything! "Restore" has nothing to do with something maintaining or keeping it's "originality". You might want to consider going back in history to argue and change those definitions. I can assure you they were established in the English language LONG before I was born. I had absolutely nothing to do with their inception!

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Dom- your never gonna sell any of your cars anyhow- so? And we'd have to pay all the import costs too- to get them back in the states where they belong!

And to Dave- You have to be a little "special" to do what you do. I could never possess the amount of patience that you have to have to do what you have done-

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First off let me start by saying, you single handedly brought us to this definition discussion. Secondly, I am well aware of what the definitions are but wanted to point out that their usage varies.

So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)
So what did you restore. Restore the finish of the car, restore the shine to the paint, restore working power and function to non functioning parts, restore the appearance, etc etc.

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)
So what does modified refer to? Modified using parts that did not come on the car?? For instance, in discussing the flat unfolded carpet you replied "They are accurate reproductions but we never say they are original. They are original IN APPEARANCE."- So technically since this was not an original part of the car you did not restor it, but rather replaced it. Is it now modified according to your very strict definition?
Or can we imply that the understanding of the words "to restore a car" is generally meant to bring back in appearance what was originally there. I think the honest intent is in general appearance. Otherwise buying a replacement carpet instead of restoring the original (to the car) carpet would be considered modified.

This was my point earily. The definitions are understood but how they are applied is still up to opinion. So when you blasted someone for saying something was "over-restored" and got on your soap box to educate us all you opened the conversation up for debate, thus taking all of us off course. And for the record I believe 99% of us here understand what someone means when they say over-restored. In most cases they are saying to bring back to an original look in appearance with some deviations for personal preference to improve the car. Maybe a better quality paint job, maybe a nicer carpet that doesnt fade with UV rays, or a dash pad that doesn't crack after a year in the sun. It is personal taste on what the perceived improvement is. However, the OP was not saying I want to over restore the car with glass packs, shag carpet, and fuzzy dice. Im sure that was not his intent. I think he just wanted to say, will I get the most resale by sticking 100% to what the factory did in appearance (paint dabs, decals, drips, overspray etc) or can I do things like spray color on the underside, use stainless steel brake lines and go base coat clear coat and what kind of money can I expect?

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Thats the whole point of this post.

After reading all the responses, I suppose it doesnt matter much really.

I guess the potential market for an over restored car is bigger than for an OEM concourse resto.

However, when we are talking about RARE & EXPENSIVE cars...do the people that want those cars are always more inclined towards OEM correctness or not necessarily???

I know that for a clone car or a specially optrioned car but not necessarily mega rare or expensive over restoreing is the way to go.

But what about when you are talking about cars that surpass the 100k mark in value? Im taking about the 71 4406 shaker 4 speed bb go wing cuda, or the 69 HEMI charger, or lets say a cuda vert or something like a HEMI Daytona???? Should it be any different or not??? Will over restoring actually HURT cars like these???

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I'm curious to see if anyone has ever restored an OEM winner with a stealth 'over performance' drivetrain. I'm thinking no, but curious.

As I said, FAST has impacted restoration preferences. Yes PSMCR has been around longer but FAST, due to smart promotion, friendly media coverage, and incredible ETs, benefits considerably at internet car forums... where restoration plans are hatched.

FAST show cars have now branded the thought of 'over performance' on the mind. Those who plan on restoring beyond trailer ramp capabilities see 'over performance' as something to marry with 'over restored'.

It seems unless you're starting out definitively targeting high end collectors for unloading.... you'll likely end up over restoring.

Yes? No?

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You might want to consider going back in history to argue and change those definitions. I can assure you they were established in the English language LONG before I was born. I had absolutely nothing to do with their inception!

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Actually Dave, there is no "governing body" for the English language. Language is what we as a society make it. That is why you see new words added to dictionaries. For instance, you can look at old laws and see that "idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged. Today we use the new terminology and idiots applies to who people feel the term fits. it is no longer the "legal" term.

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"idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged.

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You certainly don't have a problem relating to or translating that particular definition do you? Keep on spinning and twisting!!

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I'm curious to see if anyone has ever restored an OEM winner with a stealth 'over performance' drivetrain. I'm thinking no, but curious.

As I said, FAST has impacted restoration preferences. Yes PSMCR has been around longer but FAST, due to smart promotion, friendly media coverage, and incredible ETs, benefits considerably at internet car forums... where restoration plans are hatched.

FAST show cars have now branded the thought of 'over performance' on the mind. Those who plan on restoring beyond trailer ramp capabilities see 'over performance' as something to marry with 'over restored'.

It seems unless you're starting out definitively targeting high end collectors for unloading.... you'll likely end up over restoring.

Yes? No?

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As I stated in my post above, it all depends on who is buying on any given day and if there is competition for the car for sale.

As far as over performance drivetrains, I think that for most people they love it as long as it has the factory "look." That is what has made the F.A.S.T. cars so popular. When you think about it, most of us buy these cars out of a love for nostalgia. When we knew of or owned them new we typically wanted them to perform at there modified best but still wanted them to look stock. That was the street racers thing, let everybody you were racing think they were out of the box stock until the competition got the surprise in the 1/4 mile. I don't think that has really changed for the collector/buyer today. This is also why day 2 wheels, tachs, and a few other items are perfectly acceptable to most buyers. After all, they just bolt on anyway.

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"idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged.

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You certainly don't have a problem relating to or translating that particular definition do you? Keep on spinning and twisting!!

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Twisting? Dave, you always are changing the subject in order to get away from yourself being wrong.

Are you really trying to say that definitions are static and that there is some sort of group that regulates them?

Let's see if you can stick with this or skirt the subject again.

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I really like that approach. In fact, with the rare cars I plan on putting the original engine blocks aside for safekeeping, and I will build the engines using a brand new block with stroker cranks and some ooomph to them.

I don't get it You're gonna spend all this time and money on OEM/RESTORE/OVER RESTORE [whatever you do] and you're gonna give the numbers match block/engine to the buyer so they can pay some more to make it right? Why bother???? Don't tell me your afraid to blow up the original block!


Im also steering towards over restoring them a little. Thats my personal taste on these cars.

Sounds like your mind is made up

I like to drive them without regrets, show them, and keep them looking nice and FRESH for as long as possible. I also want em to be realiable.

I hope that people find that appealing if it ever comes a time to sell.

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Twisting? Dave, you always are changing the subject in order to get away from yourself being wrong.

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You are absolutely right! That must be what I am doing to hide my obvious pitfalls as they relate to the World of Restorations. Rather than just keep going back and forth here SomecArGuy, why not share with us the vehicles that you have in your portfolio!?! This is a Mopar Automobile Restoration forum right? I for one choose to "see" a Sermon rather than "hear" one any day of the week. You DO have a car or something associated with these opinions that you constantly argue about....right? Why not compare and show the results that have factored into your "correct" efforts versus mine? You can display how it should be done and I can show myself being "wrong" as usual! Are you Game SomeCarGuy or will you spin the challenge and come back with your usual irresolute rhetoric? This is your chance to really put me in my place and expose my true ignorance! A simple YES or NO will suffice. I'm ready when you are. Lets Go Big shooter!