Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62609
12/16/09 01:54 AM
12/16/09 01:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
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top fuel
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413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently.
Nobody's denying that. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. I can build a turbo fwd 4cyl mopar that will spank a differently built 413 on the street and the whole way down the track. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. All we're saying is the 440 will have a slight edge over AN IDENTICALLY BUILT 413 across the whole powerband. Nobody is saying the 413 won't make good power or that the 440 is the ultimate motor. As I said before, that difference is not likely to be much of anything on the drag strip or on the street. The 440 will have the slight edge in a perfect world. However in a perfect world motors are tuned to perfection, all drivers are pros and tracks are prepped amazingly. I don't know what it's like around you, but here 413's are as scarce as 361's and RB383's. Just seems to be none of them around, however I can find a 383, 400 or 440 if I hit up the classifieds.
Thank you for finally "listening". AS for you, it could be that your turbo mill has enough "oats" to run or even beat a big block on the track. Anything is possible!!! Good size turbo w/adj wastegate, hi-flow head, good fuel managment, strong tranny/drivetrain/suspension plus a drop of NOx2, you too would shock the heck out of some "disbelievers". Turbo cars RUN like the BIG DOGS so don't feel left out of the "game". Besides you "hit on a point that I was making. Cubic inches CAN be substituted!!! AS far as the 440 vs.413 goes, it's NEVER a perfect world. Your Car IS a shining EXAMPLE!!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62610
12/16/09 01:59 AM
12/16/09 01:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304 Northern Indiana
mr_belvedere
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304
Northern Indiana
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Quote:
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413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently.
Nobody's denying that. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. I can build a turbo fwd 4cyl mopar that will spank a differently built 413 on the street and the whole way down the track. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. All we're saying is the 440 will have a slight edge over AN IDENTICALLY BUILT 413 across the whole powerband. Nobody is saying the 413 won't make good power or that the 440 is the ultimate motor. As I said before, that difference is not likely to be much of anything on the drag strip or on the street. The 440 will have the slight edge in a perfect world. However in a perfect world motors are tuned to perfection, all drivers are pros and tracks are prepped amazingly. I don't know what it's like around you, but here 413's are as scarce as 361's and RB383's. Just seems to be none of them around, however I can find a 383, 400 or 440 if I hit up the classifieds.
Thank you for finally "listening". AS for you, it could be that your turbo mill has enough "oats" to run or even beat a big block on the track. Anything is possible!!! Good size turbo w/adj wastegate, hi-flow head, good fuel managment, strong tranny/drivetrain/suspension plus a drop of NOx2, you too would shock the heck out of some "disbelievers". Turbo cars RUN like the BIG DOGS so don't feel left out of the "game". Besides you "hit on a point that I was making. Cubic inches CAN be substituted!!! AS far as the 440 vs.413 goes, it's NEVER a perfect world. Your Car IS a shining EXAMPLE!!
Usually the substitution for cubic inches is cubic dollars. Which is exactly why most build a 440 vs. a 413.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62612
12/16/09 02:07 AM
12/16/09 02:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111 Bowie, MD
Reggie
top fuel
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Bowie, MD
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Quote:
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413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently.
Nobody's denying that. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. I can build a turbo fwd 4cyl mopar that will spank a differently built 413 on the street and the whole way down the track. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. All we're saying is the 440 will have a slight edge over AN IDENTICALLY BUILT 413 across the whole powerband. Nobody is saying the 413 won't make good power or that the 440 is the ultimate motor. As I said before, that difference is not likely to be much of anything on the drag strip or on the street. The 440 will have the slight edge in a perfect world. However in a perfect world motors are tuned to perfection, all drivers are pros and tracks are prepped amazingly. I don't know what it's like around you, but here 413's are as scarce as 361's and RB383's. Just seems to be none of them around, however I can find a 383, 400 or 440 if I hit up the classifieds.
Bingo! There are at least 7 or 8 440s for sale within 100 miles of me. There is presently just ONE 413 for sale, and he thinks it's a MW engine.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: mr_belvedere]
#62613
12/16/09 02:12 AM
12/16/09 02:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
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413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently.
Nobody's denying that. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. I can build a turbo fwd 4cyl mopar that will spank a differently built 413 on the street and the whole way down the track. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. All we're saying is the 440 will have a slight edge over AN IDENTICALLY BUILT 413 across the whole powerband. Nobody is saying the 413 won't make good power or that the 440 is the ultimate motor. As I said before, that difference is not likely to be much of anything on the drag strip or on the street. The 440 will have the slight edge in a perfect world. However in a perfect world motors are tuned to perfection, all drivers are pros and tracks are prepped amazingly. I don't know what it's like around you, but here 413's are as scarce as 361's and RB383's. Just seems to be none of them around, however I can find a 383, 400 or 440 if I hit up the classifieds.
Thank you for finally "listening". AS for you, it could be that your turbo mill has enough "oats" to run or even beat a big block on the track. Anything is possible!!! Good size turbo w/adj wastegate, hi-flow head, good fuel managment, strong tranny/drivetrain/suspension plus a drop of NOx2, you too would shock the heck out of some "disbelievers". Turbo cars RUN like the BIG DOGS so don't feel left out of the "game". Besides you "hit on a point that I was making. Cubic inches CAN be substituted!!! AS far as the 440 vs.413 goes, it's NEVER a perfect world. Your Car IS a shining EXAMPLE!!
Usually the substitution for cubic inches is cubic dollars. Which is exactly why most build a 440 vs. a 413.
In YOUR world probably. TO the Mopar "tuner" guy like "Daytona", he is doing BASICALLY the same as you 440 guys, and "kicking some serious booty". Turbos run!!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62614
12/16/09 02:17 AM
12/16/09 02:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304 Northern Indiana
mr_belvedere
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
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Northern Indiana
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if you 440 guys want to pick on your "slightly younger 413 bretheren",
I thought 413s were older than 440s......?
Seriously, can we get some kool-aid over here?
Don't need any KOOL-AID son, the difference in engine displacement was "used as a comparision" in age. It's the age-number thing. Cool you jets, don't run with it guys. We all know that the 413 actually older in the case of production. Think a little and you won't get
Okay, so what you meant was- if you 440 guys want to pick on your slightly smaller displacement 413 bretheren
Actually, i wasnt confused, I was being facetious. We do need the kool-aid, pappy.....
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#62617
12/16/09 05:25 AM
12/16/09 05:25 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Mods is there anything positive coming out of this thread anymore? Merry Christmas to all and to all a goodnight...
then why open this thread? everybody is being respectful. well hotrod was kinda over the top and that dodge whatever guy.. but its cool.
to answer your earlier question on "your still trying to figure out what stroker cranks to use with the 413" after talking with the good ole boys at OHIO crank. we came up with an awesome combo. do a little research. 440 is a great engine. not rocket science to source out good parts for the 440. The 413 however.. seperates then men from the boys.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#62618
12/16/09 07:19 AM
12/16/09 07:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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The Netherlands
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Mods is there anything positive coming out of this thread anymore? Merry Christmas to all and to all a goodnight...
Oh yes there is... It's providing a certain level of fun for those who don't participate in it (anymore) ...
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62619
12/16/09 09:26 AM
12/16/09 09:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Manitoba, Canada
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not rocket science to source out good parts for the 440. The 413 however.. seperates then men from the boys.
You mean the men who cut their losss and throw that 413 in the trash and the boys who can't accept their mill is a boat anchor? Lol, just kidding.
Really it would be neat to see someone stroke a 413, however with the low price you can get a 440 core block for, and the ease of availability of 440 based stroker kits, I think most guys will come to the conclusion it's easier to just go with the flow and pick up a 440 block. Plus like I said in my previous post, I can find a 440 block any time. Even if I tried, I would be hard-pressed to locate a 413. The one guy I know I could get one from would want much more $ than I can get a core 383/400/440 for. But you are right, doing a 413 properly with a nice set of custom pistons is not for the faint of heart or the average guy.
And yeah this thread is fun, keep it up!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62620
12/16/09 10:29 AM
12/16/09 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Really it would be neat to see someone stroke a 413, however with the low price you can get a 440 core block for, and the ease of availability of 440 based stroker kits, I think most guys will come to the conclusion it's easier to just go with the flow and pick up a 440 block. Plus like I said in my previous post, I can find a 440 block any time. Even if I tried, I would be hard-pressed to locate a 413. The one guy I know I could get one from would want much more $ than I can get a core 383/400/440 for. But you are right, doing a 413 properly with a nice set of custom pistons is not for the faint of heart or the average guy.
And yeah this thread is fun, keep it up!
IF your 413 block can be bored out to 4.25", I think stroking one of these wouldn't be a bad idea.
blueprint deck height is 10.72 or 10.725", depending on where you look....
take 1 4.15" stroke crank, aftermarket RB rods (6.76" long), and KB162 pistons (383 standard bore, 1.908" CH)
4.15/2+6.76+1.908= 10.743", or ~.020" out of the hole. with 92cc heads and a .040" head gasket it yields 10.3:1 compression. perfect if running OEM chambered heads
or look for thicker gaskets (fel-pro Z1039's are .051" thick, there's plenty of copper gaskets in the .06-.07" range on summit) and run closed chambered eddies. if deck height is 10.725", with the fel pro's you're looking at .033" quench (tight, but doable) and 10.7:1 compression with eddies..on summit, there's some .064" compressed rubber coated copper Flatout brand gaskets that would yield .041-.046" quench and 10.5:1 with eddie heads....
the other option is to use Federal Mogul Z366NP pistons, which are stock replacement 383 flat tops, 1.848 CH. (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STL-366NP/?image=large) this would yield ~.037-.042" in the hole with a 4.15" crank, and .008-.013" out of the hole with a 4.25" stroke crank. these don't have valve reliefs, though, and are the same price as the Kieth Blacks.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62621
12/16/09 10:39 AM
12/16/09 10:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
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Blair County,PA
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One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
good point. if you go buy hp/ci the 360hp the 413 made should equate to 383hp for the non-hp 440 with superior cylinder heads. seems the 440 is missing 33hp mabey that 225 \6 got it.
Two points:
1. The 360hp version of the 413 had a hotter cam than the 350hp 440. (The New Yorker 413 had a milder cam than either of them and a 340hp rating.)
2. In the 50's and 60's, advertised horsepower ratings were often more about marketing than real horsepower. One of the worst examples was a 1958 Ford 352 that was supposed to have 300 horsepower but only made 200 actual horsepower on an engine (not chassis) dyno.
Thank you for your input. You hit on the point that we were trying to "illustrate" to the forum. Great Tech!!!
Actually,you missed the point.The 360 hp 413 may have had a hotter cam,but the 375 hp 440 also had a hotter cam than the 350 hp.Still only 25 hp with better heads and more cu.in.So all things being equal,one is as good as the other if it is a personal choice.
[/quote In the 50's and 60's, advertised horsepower ratings were often more about marketing than real horsepower. ]/quote
And sometimes just the oppusite.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#62622
12/16/09 10:48 AM
12/16/09 10:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Actually,you missed the point.The 360 hp 413 may have had a hotter cam,but the 375 hp 440 also had a hotter cam than the 350 hp.Still only 25 hp with better heads and more cu.in.So all things being equal,one is as good as the other if it is a personal choice.
And since when were factory published power numbers regarded as gospel? Seeing their published compression ratio numbers were miles off reality and just a marketing gimmick, I would assume the same for the published hp/torq numbers. And besides, those numbers are 40+ years out of date. Who builds a bone stock engine these days anyway other than the resto guys?
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#62623
12/16/09 10:54 AM
12/16/09 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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Definiton of special: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/specialSo the short answer is no, the 413 was a mass produced throwaway engine installed into mass produced throwaway cars that were sold in huge volumes and generally sent to the junkyard when their lifespan was over. Anything mass produced doesn't qualify as "special".
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62624
12/16/09 11:05 AM
12/16/09 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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stroke a 413 to a 4" stroke making 439cid (yes i know custom pistons blah, blah, blah). the way smaller bore 413 will make more horsepower & torque then the larger bore 440. thats a guarantee"
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and the self proclaimed gurus crack me up as well. prove me wrong. if you think you get the same hosrepower from a 4.32" x 3.75" vs 4.18" x 4.00" bore and stroke 440 cid engine your sadly mistaken my friend.
um, I think carcraft proved this a number of years ago. it's displacement that matters, not bore or stroke.
they built up 2 equal displacement SBC LS1 motors, IIRC, both 383 displacement. one was a stroked 5.7 (which are, IIRC 3.9" bore), the other used a 5.7 crank (3.62" stroke) and all bore to achieve the same displacement. both were built to have identical compression ratios. I do not remember if they varied rod length to have the same rod ratio, as well. I don't remember if the all bore motor was a 5.7 block and sleeved, or an aftermarket block, or what, but IIRC the article was in the early '00's, before the "big bore" 6.0/6.2L's LSx's were widespread or even available.
they used the same heads, cam, intake, headers, etc, so the two engines were identical except for the bore/stroke ratio to come up with identical displacements. the results? the larger bore/smaller stroke motor made slightly (like 5hp and lb-ft) more HP than the all stroke motor, their assumption was it was due to less valve shrouding, but it was less than 2% difference, which basically means they made identical power.
so build up your two hypothetical 440 cube motors otherwise identically (cam, compression, induction, exhaust), they should make the same amount of power.
I really wish I could find the link to that article again...
Last edited by patrick; 12/16/09 11:07 AM.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: patrick]
#62625
12/16/09 11:13 AM
12/16/09 11:13 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
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Really it would be neat to see someone stroke a 413, however with the low price you can get a 440 core block for, and the ease of availability of 440 based stroker kits, I think most guys will come to the conclusion it's easier to just go with the flow and pick up a 440 block. Plus like I said in my previous post, I can find a 440 block any time. Even if I tried, I would be hard-pressed to locate a 413. The one guy I know I could get one from would want much more $ than I can get a core 383/400/440 for. But you are right, doing a 413 properly with a nice set of custom pistons is not for the faint of heart or the average guy.
And yeah this thread is fun, keep it up!
IF your 413 block can be bored out to 4.25", I think stroking one of these wouldn't be a bad idea.
blueprint deck height is 10.72 or 10.725", depending on where you look....
take 1 4.15" stroke crank, aftermarket RB rods (6.76" long), and KB162 pistons (383 standard bore, 1.908" CH)
4.15/2+6.76+1.908= 10.743", or ~.020" out of the hole. with 92cc heads and a .040" head gasket it yields 10.3:1 compression. perfect if running OEM chambered heads
or look for thicker gaskets (fel-pro Z1039's are .051" thick, there's plenty of copper gaskets in the .06-.07" range on summit) and run closed chambered eddies. if deck height is 10.725", with the fel pro's you're looking at .033" quench (tight, but doable) and 10.7:1 compression with eddies..on summit, there's some .064" compressed rubber coated copper Flatout brand gaskets that would yield .041-.046" quench and 10.5:1 with eddie heads....
the other option is to use Federal Mogul Z366NP pistons, which are stock replacement 383 flat tops, 1.848 CH. (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STL-366NP/?image=large) this would yield ~.037-.042" in the hole with a 4.15" crank, and .008-.013" out of the hole with a 4.25" stroke crank. these don't have valve reliefs, though, and are the same price as the Kieth Blacks.
very nice
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#62626
12/16/09 11:59 AM
12/16/09 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Definiton of special:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/special
So the short answer is no, the 413 was a mass produced throwaway engine installed into mass produced throwaway cars that were sold in huge volumes and generally sent to the junkyard when their lifespan was over.
Anything mass produced doesn't qualify as "special".
And the 440 was not mass produced? I think you will find quantity of 440's produced far out number 413's over each's life span.Just about any platform built from 66 on could have a 440.So each 440 is special,I really doubt it.Just like the 413,some are special,some aren't.The 440 smog motor that was in my 75 Imperial was special or was it not? The 6pk motor in my bird is special or is it not?
Show me where the 440 was not "mass produced"
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