Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62572
12/13/09 01:51 PM
12/13/09 01:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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The perfect example of less displacement and more horse power.
From Dick Maxwell:
Any 170 cu. in. slant six having a small BBS carburetor (1-1/4" dia. venturi) will produce about 5% more power when the 225 cu. in. BBS carburetor (1-11/32" dia. venturi) is installed. These two carburetors can be identified by measuring their throttle bore diameter. The larger carburetor has a 1-11/16" dia. throttle bore and the smaller carburetor has a 1-9/16" dia. throttle bore. All 170 manual transmission jobs and the 1960 and 1961 170 with automatic transmission have the smaller carburetor. 2. Two Barrels a. Two Barrel Conversion Available from MoPar A two barrel set up (as used on the 225 cu. in. marine engine) is available from MoPar as follows: 1 - 2463849 carburetor 1 - E8467 manifold 1 - 2465310 air cleaner
Dick is not saying the 170 will make 5% more power than the 225, he is saying the 170 will make 5% more power with the bigger carb from a 225 than it did with it's original carb.
If the 170 makes more power than the 225 witch we already established is the most powerfull engine ever then mabey we should all swap out Hemis for the rare and elusive monster 170 slant 6 the no car on earth could ever touch us
So does that equate that a 413 will make 5% more HP than a 440 using the 440 carb ?
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#62573
12/13/09 02:32 PM
12/13/09 02:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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As it was said before, 440's will have the upstair power due to it larger bore. things will will be tight between them at low and midrange.
Still wrong on all counts. The 440 will crush it with low RPM tq due to the cubic inches and it will smash it on top end because of the ability to flow more air with a bigger bore and less shrouded valves. The low RPM TQ is a direct derivitive of the cubic inches and the 440 will kill an equally equipped 413.
um WRONG. small bores BIG strokes.. thats what wins in a killer street engine. being of EQUAL cubic inches mind you.
JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE: TOP FUEL ENGINES:
4.1875" bore x 4.500" stroke
remember kids.. just an example.. i know that isn't a street engine and its supercharged, but yet they choose to make the engine that way.
Following YOUR logic... If the smallest bores and longest stroke makes the most TQ and TQ wins races then how the hell come we don't all run 225 slant six's and slaughter the competition? Bet you didn't know the 225 had the longest stroke of almost ANY engine put in a car since about 1960 and one of the smallest bores of the muscle car era, the smallest bore and the longest stroke, and to further make it the king it has the smallest valves and ports of any mopar motor from the muscle era... it should even kill the mighty Hemi any day of the week ! Heck if only the 18 wheelers knew of the 225 they could save all that money on 1000 cube catapiller diesels they run. The fact is your logic is completly wrong, the 440 will make more TQ because it has more DISPLACEMENT. No one ever said a 413 is slow so you need to quit repeating it, re-read the post genious. The only things people have said about it are it will make less TQ than an equally built 440 and pistons are expensive customs or expensive lo-po replacement pistons and you could buy a 440 and build it cheaper and make more TQ doing it. Stop trying to put words in peoples mouths.
Dave, I think the BUICK CAMP disagrees VERY LOUDLY. (My apologies to my MOPAR brothers). SAME BORE, longer rod?, LONGER STROKE. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY 440's Have a hard time, with the GS's and Skylarks, or even a some 2-door ELECTRA 225's built to run deep 10's, legal and driven on the street regularly. Dave, your problem is that you are scared to 'run the opposition" cause your combo isn't sound. Or, is it that you have spent money in it and "think" that it is the ULTIMATE. I am waiting for the day when some person (man or woman), shuts your combo down. They problably will have done their "homework" on their combo and spent "less" than you. They may have checked over and over, the balance, clearances, parts compliment (intake, carb(s), cam, compression, exhaust, gears/tranny and suspension) and most important vehicle weight. Not rocket science, just plain ol' hot rod innovation. Enhance what the factory gave you, improve the weak points and exploit the strong. You so caught up in your rhetoric, you may get beaten by a MAX BORE, HI RPM 400 Mill in a 2800- 3000lb chassis that is street legal. I do know a few. AND they are not "HIGH DOLLAR" combo's either. Read: non stroker. One favor though watch who are calling the "post genius". I try to help those who seek knowledge "without engine discrimintion". You, always been the self-rightous proclamed 440 GURU read "THE UNBEATABLE", do not respect the opinions of the other member of this post. Offer a little constructive criticism some time, open your ears and maybe, just maybe you WILL realize the 440 isn't the ONLY GAME IN TOWN!! It is a GOOD mill but not THE MILL.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62576
12/13/09 02:41 PM
12/13/09 02:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271 Vista, California
67Satty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
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Quote:
and the self proclaimed gurus crack me up as well. prove me wrong. if you think you get the same hosrepower from a 4.32" x 3.75" vs 4.18" x 4.00" bore and stroke 440 cid engine your sadly mistaken my friend.
And if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.
This is one of my favorite threads ever.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62577
12/13/09 02:51 PM
12/13/09 02:51 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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As it was said before, 440's will have the upstair power due to it larger bore. things will will be tight between them at low and midrange.
Still wrong on all counts. The 440 will crush it with low RPM tq due to the cubic inches and it will smash it on top end because of the ability to flow more air with a bigger bore and less shrouded valves. The low RPM TQ is a direct derivitive of the cubic inches and the 440 will kill an equally equipped 413.
um WRONG. small bores BIG strokes.. thats what wins in a killer street engine. being of EQUAL cubic inches mind you.
JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE: TOP FUEL ENGINES:
4.1875" bore x 4.500" stroke
remember kids.. just an example.. i know that isn't a street engine and its supercharged, but yet they choose to make the engine that way.
Following YOUR logic... If the smallest bores and longest stroke makes the most TQ and TQ wins races then how the hell come we don't all run 225 slant six's and slaughter the competition? Bet you didn't know the 225 had the longest stroke of almost ANY engine put in a car since about 1960 and one of the smallest bores of the muscle car era, the smallest bore and the longest stroke, and to further make it the king it has the smallest valves and ports of any mopar motor from the muscle era... it should even kill the mighty Hemi any day of the week ! Heck if only the 18 wheelers knew of the 225 they could save all that money on 1000 cube catapiller diesels they run. The fact is your logic is completly wrong, the 440 will make more TQ because it has more DISPLACEMENT. No one ever said a 413 is slow so you need to quit repeating it, re-read the post genious. The only things people have said about it are it will make less TQ than an equally built 440 and pistons are expensive customs or expensive lo-po replacement pistons and you could buy a 440 and build it cheaper and make more TQ doing it. Stop trying to put words in peoples mouths.
Dave, I think the BUICK CAMP disagrees VERY LOUDLY. (My apologies to my MOPAR brothers). SAME BORE, longer rod?, LONGER STROKE. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY 440's Have a hard time, with the GS's and Skylarks, or even a some 2-door ELECTRA 225's built to run deep 10's, legal and driven on the street regularly. Dave, your problem is that you are scared to 'run the opposition" cause your combo isn't sound. Or, is it that you have spent money in it and "think" that it is the ULTIMATE. I am waiting for the day when some person (man or woman), shuts your combo down. They problably will have done their "homework" on their combo and spent "less" than you. They may have checked over and over, the balance, clearances, parts compliment (intake, carb(s), cam, compression, exhaust, gears/tranny and suspension) and most important vehicle weight. Not rocket science, just plain ol' hot rod innovation. Enhance what the factory gave you, improve the weak points and exploit the strong. You so caught up in your rhetoric, you may get beaten by a MAX BORE, HI RPM 400 Mill in a 2800- 3000lb chassis that is street legal. I do know a few. AND they are not "HIGH DOLLAR" combo's either. Read: non stroker. One favor though watch who are calling the "post genius". I try to help those who seek knowledge "without engine discrimintion". You, always been the self-rightous proclamed 440 GURU read "THE UNBEATABLE", do not respect the opinions of the other member of this post. Offer a little constructive criticism some time, open your ears and maybe, just maybe you WILL realize the 440 isn't the ONLY GAME IN TOWN!! It is a GOOD mill but not THE MILL.
mind if i toss hotrod a few questions? becouse his theory on the \6 was brilliant.
ahem...
440 with a 4.32" x 3.75" cylinder VS a 440 with a 4.18" x 4.00" cylinder (identical builds except for the bore and stroke)
which will make more peak HP? which will make more average horsepower? which will make more peak torque? which will make more Average torque? which motor will make more VE?
i'm not a mechanic.. i just play one on the internet..
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62579
12/13/09 03:14 PM
12/13/09 03:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
Quote:
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As it was said before, 440's will have the upstair power due to it larger bore. things will will be tight between them at low and midrange.
Still wrong on all counts. The 440 will crush it with low RPM tq due to the cubic inches and it will smash it on top end because of the ability to flow more air with a bigger bore and less shrouded valves. The low RPM TQ is a direct derivitive of the cubic inches and the 440 will kill an equally equipped 413.
um WRONG. small bores BIG strokes.. thats what wins in a killer street engine. being of EQUAL cubic inches mind you.
JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE: TOP FUEL ENGINES:
4.1875" bore x 4.500" stroke
remember kids.. just an example.. i know that isn't a street engine and its supercharged, but yet they choose to make the engine that way.
Following YOUR logic... If the smallest bores and longest stroke makes the most TQ and TQ wins races then how the hell come we don't all run 225 slant six's and slaughter the competition? Bet you didn't know the 225 had the longest stroke of almost ANY engine put in a car since about 1960 and one of the smallest bores of the muscle car era, the smallest bore and the longest stroke, and to further make it the king it has the smallest valves and ports of any mopar motor from the muscle era... it should even kill the mighty Hemi any day of the week ! Heck if only the 18 wheelers knew of the 225 they could save all that money on 1000 cube catapiller diesels they run. The fact is your logic is completly wrong, the 440 will make more TQ because it has more DISPLACEMENT. No one ever said a 413 is slow so you need to quit repeating it, re-read the post genious. The only things people have said about it are it will make less TQ than an equally built 440 and pistons are expensive customs or expensive lo-po replacement pistons and you could buy a 440 and build it cheaper and make more TQ doing it. Stop trying to put words in peoples mouths.
Dave, I think the BUICK CAMP disagrees VERY LOUDLY. (My apologies to my MOPAR brothers). SAME BORE, longer rod?, LONGER STROKE. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY 440's Have a hard time, with the GS's and Skylarks, or even a some 2-door ELECTRA 225's built to run deep 10's, legal and driven on the street regularly. Dave, your problem is that you are scared to 'run the opposition" cause your combo isn't sound. Or, is it that you have spent money in it and "think" that it is the ULTIMATE. I am waiting for the day when some person (man or woman), shuts your combo down. They problably will have done their "homework" on their combo and spent "less" than you. They may have checked over and over, the balance, clearances, parts compliment (intake, carb(s), cam, compression, exhaust, gears/tranny and suspension) and most important vehicle weight. Not rocket science, just plain ol' hot rod innovation. Enhance what the factory gave you, improve the weak points and exploit the strong. You so caught up in your rhetoric, you may get beaten by a MAX BORE, HI RPM 400 Mill in a 2800- 3000lb chassis that is street legal. I do know a few. AND they are not "HIGH DOLLAR" combo's either. Read: non stroker. One favor though watch who are calling the "post genius". I try to help those who seek knowledge "without engine discrimintion". You, always been the self-rightous proclamed 440 GURU read "THE UNBEATABLE", do not respect the opinions of the other member of this post. Offer a little constructive criticism some time, open your ears and maybe, just maybe you WILL realize the 440 isn't the ONLY GAME IN TOWN!! It is a GOOD mill but not THE MILL.
mind if i toss hotrod a few questions? becouse his theory on the \6 was brilliant.
ahem...
440 with a 4.32" x 3.75" cylinder VS a 440 with a 4.18" x 4.00" cylinder (identical builds except for the bore and stroke)
which will make more peak HP? which will make more average horsepower? which will make more peak torque? which will make more Average torque? which motor will make more VE?
i'm not a mechanic.. i just play one on the internet..
Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62580
12/13/09 03:16 PM
12/13/09 03:16 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
those questions where for hotroddave lol. i already know your answers to them question
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#62581
12/13/09 03:31 PM
12/13/09 03:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111 Bowie, MD
Reggie
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111
Bowie, MD
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I'm considering sleeving my 440 to get the bore size down and make some serious power.Who makes the thickest sleeves?
Just get yourself one of them RB 383s....
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62582
12/13/09 03:37 PM
12/13/09 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62583
12/13/09 03:38 PM
12/13/09 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 567 USA
dodge_nut
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 567
USA
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Quote:
Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
your answers are based upon opinion, conjecture and theoretical modifications of builds written up in this (and maybe other) forum threads.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY PERSONAL QUANTITATIVE DATA FOR YOUR HYPOTHESES EITHER FROM DYNO OR DRAG STRIP PERFORMANCE NUMBERS.
Due to this, your answers are about as legitimate and trustworthy as half the people who put up "forum" knowledge due to stuff they read from other people, who have read from other people, who have actually done the work.
413's are not special blocks, its the owners of them who believe they are.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: 6PakBee]
#62585
12/13/09 03:51 PM
12/13/09 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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I can't believe this thread is still alive!
You wouldn't want something this entertaining to go away would you ?
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dodge_nut]
#62586
12/13/09 03:53 PM
12/13/09 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Whoe ever said I had a 440 or even a BB in my car? I don't even have a stroker in it right now When I did have a stroker in it with the same heads, same bore, cam, intake... Never mind you guys made up your mind and don't want to learn anything
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: Reggie]
#62587
12/13/09 04:17 PM
12/13/09 04:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,835 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,835
Kirkland, Washington
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I'm considering sleeving my 440 to get the bore size down and make some serious power.Who makes the thickest sleeves?
Just get yourself one of them RB 383s....
and THEN if I sleeved that baby down....woah nellie!!! I'd be makin GOBS of power.
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