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318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! #60596
05/20/08 09:40 PM
05/20/08 09:40 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I was wanting to make a big jump in compression on the 318 in my cuda and was thinking I would put some thinner head gaskets and get the heads milled .060. Only problem I have is I have to drive the car a lot so I can't do the down time. I do have a pair of 920 heads I can put on but don't know the CCs of either the 302s on it or the 920s in the shed. Any one know what they generaly are and how much to mill to reduce them in size? This is not a high tech deal just want a rough idea.

We are getting a E-85 pump 2 miles from my house


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60597
05/21/08 07:53 AM
05/21/08 07:53 AM
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920 heads?

are they closed chamber like the 302s?

I did mine,open chamber318heads,milled .050 and replaced the valves with nail head valves instead of stock tulip,lose a couple ccs there also,also went 188/160 over 178/150 valve size

machine shop set me up and said slightly over 1 point in compresson ratio is what I got

said doing the 302s on a 9.0 comp teen,mill them .020 and lose the tulip valves,going 188/160 and would get about 9.7-9.8 comp on a stock pistion

myself,I have no clue if that is correct,hes been around and is very good,has done plenty of them


Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60598
05/21/08 08:10 AM
05/21/08 08:10 AM
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Upper Midwest
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It takes more than a compression increase to make that E85 compatable. Alot of carb work is also involved.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: MoparforLife] #60599
05/21/08 09:22 AM
05/21/08 09:22 AM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I am not debateing the e-85 thing, it runs fine as is with no carb modifications. I just want to take advantage of the extra octane.

I curantly have 302 heads and KB167 flat tops .005 below deck and felpro .039 gaskets. I am looking for at least 1 full point increase and would really prefer 2 points. I have a set of 920 heads sitting around and wondering how the CCs of the 2 different heads compare so I know how much to mill to get the desired effect.

Yes the 920 is a 1 year only casting from 67 273s and 318. It is closed chamber and looks like a smaller chamber, but I know looks can be deceiving and does not give me a number.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60600
05/21/08 09:38 AM
05/21/08 09:38 AM
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dogdays Offline
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Well, break out the calculator. 318 is something like 652 cc swept volume. If you're at 9:1 right now you have about 81.5 cc above the piston. To get to 10:1 you need 72.5, meaning lose 9cc. You may be able to get 3cc out of the gasket. There is 1cc in the deck clearance, if you deck the block. You still need 5cc. You have to measure the heads you are thinking about using. I don't think you will find a 55cc head stock. Keep in mind that a closed chamber head needs more cut to get 1cc than an open chamber head.

Anyone make domed pistons for a 318?

R.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60601
05/21/08 09:39 AM
05/21/08 09:39 AM
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ok got it now... 67 only 273/318 closed chamger heads

by the way...are they heart shaped?

I never have seen one up close off an engine

could you maybe post a pic of the chamber of the 920 head

I would like to see the differance in the shape of the 920s to the 302s

if they are smaller,I know where to score me a set to use

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60602
05/21/08 10:02 AM
05/21/08 10:02 AM
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Alton, IL
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Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: Dakota_Don] #60603
05/21/08 11:55 AM
05/21/08 11:55 AM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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KB makes a 5 cc dome, that looks like it might work with 302's...it would hit on mag heads, though...


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: patrick] #60604
05/21/08 12:11 PM
05/21/08 12:11 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I am ONLY considering how I can raise the compression with a head swap and gasket change, not a piston swap or deck milling. I have these 920s and thought I could get a VJ and mill them and have them ready to swap one day after work.

Acording to the link above I have about 62cc heads on it and the 920s are about 65cc so I definately need to mill them. Any one know how much to mill them to take away about 10cc?

As much as I would like to I can not afford a cam swap to put some milled mags on it or I would. Unless someone wants to trade a brand new XE268h for a XE250H or something very similar .


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60605
05/21/08 12:54 PM
05/21/08 12:54 PM
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Dakota_Don Offline
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i had my 68 318 swaped in a set of stock 302s and a 340 stick shift hyd cam, small 4 brrl 360 manifolds.. and from the look of my 68 heads vs the 302, im sure the 302s raised up the CR some, but im not sure how much.. and it ran pretty good to.. best way to fine out is to pull off your original head, measure the ccs, messure and find out how far you piston is in the hole, and them messure the 302 heads w/ the gasket.. then you will know approx what you will have and or gained..i dont thing it will be much, but the swirl port will be a benifit to you as well.. if it was me id do it, with larger valves and good VJ and bolt them on with a .028 head gasket and a good small port intake..

it will run good and im sure you will love it..

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: Dakota_Don] #60606
05/21/08 01:59 PM
05/21/08 01:59 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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I have some untouched 302 heads here from an engine I just took apart. I'll try CC them if I can...


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: Dakota_Don] #60607
05/21/08 05:58 PM
05/21/08 05:58 PM
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Eastern Ohio
mopowergtx Offline
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Quote:

http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/ml-pitchercastingheadarticle.html


photo http://pub31.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?img=48846&usernum=2614635276




According to that chart you only give up 2.5 cc of chamber volume on the 920 versus the 302 but the port volume advantage goes to the 920. I know I kept the heads off my 67 318 because someday I would like to port and polish them and stick a set of stocker 1.88/1.60's valves in them and see what they will do. They do need opened up for more flow in my opion but just a side by side comparision to my gasket matched J's they dont look like they have enough meat in the intake gasket area to open all the way up to 340/360 gasket size. Man those compbustion chambers on the 302's must be tight to be less volume than those 920's though. Those 920 chambers are postage stamp size compared once again to the 915 J's. Well unless the valve size/configuration is accounting for that 2.5 cc's of volume. Those valves in the 920's were cupped a bunch if I remember right.


http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Dave using that KB calculator with what I believe is your engines specs of Felpro .039 thick gasket with a 4.06 bore, 3.94 piston diameter, 5 cc KB 167's piston volume, .005 down in the hole, 62 cc's for the 302 heads chambers, and a 3.31 stroke it spit out your comp ratio right now at 9.673. Change to .028 Mopar gasket which are on national backorder right now by the way and it brings that number up to 9.948! Almost a 1/3 of a point with a gasket change alone. With what you got now no wonder it wont drink anything but 93 octane.

Last edited by mopowergtx; 05/21/08 06:22 PM.
Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60608
05/22/08 01:26 AM
05/22/08 01:26 AM
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Quote:

Change to .028 Mopar gasket which are on national backorder right now by the way and it brings that number up to 9.948!




Aren't they advertised as .024-.028"? That could pose a problem with this...

Quote:

I currently have 302 heads and KB167 flat tops .005 below deck and felpro .039 gaskets.




At .028" it'd have .033" quench...likely liveable with "minimum desired" being .035". But at .024" compressed, that'd leave less than .030"...too close for comfort?


2 Demons...no, not my kids!
Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: 4speeds4me] #60609
05/22/08 12:47 PM
05/22/08 12:47 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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I have asked on here before and most guys say they are more like .028 to .030 compressed.

I have tight piston to wall clearances, I don't remember the number but it was the KB minimum. That should give keep piston rock to a minimum. Also since it never goes over 5000 rpm I figure it will be fine. Also the hypers expand less than other pistons.

A note on your head gasket measuremennt the curent felpros have more like a 4.16 bore vs the mopar gaskets 4.06 bore. That means it will be a bigger increase than you stated.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60610
05/22/08 04:06 PM
05/22/08 04:06 PM
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mopowergtx Offline
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Quote:

I have asked on here before and most guys say they are more like .028 to .030 compressed.

I have tight piston to wall clearances, I don't remember the number but it was the KB minimum. That should give keep piston rock to a minimum. Also since it never goes over 5000 rpm I figure it will be fine. Also the hypers expand less than other pistons.

A note on your head gasket measuremennt the curent felpros have more like a 4.16 bore vs the mopar gaskets 4.06 bore. That means it will be a bigger increase than you stated.




9.627 to 1 then with that bore head gasket you got now. The other predicted number would stay the same of course. If I remember right I get about .002 of top of the piston tip from side to side myself but I cant remember my piston to wall clearance. Yah I agree, under 5 grand, I doubt you would need to worry about the piston to head clearance at .028 gasket and .005 in the hole.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: mopowergtx] #60611
05/22/08 04:38 PM
05/22/08 04:38 PM
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why are 70' 318"'s rated at 9.0 compression, but dont make it?

what will happen with the national backorder? arent they discontinued due to moparPerformance.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: mark7171] #60612
05/22/08 05:04 PM
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HotRodDave Offline OP
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The factory didn't get true 9 to 1 because the pistons were so far in the hole and the chambers on pretty much all mopar heads are bigger than advertised.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: mark7171] #60613
05/22/08 07:15 PM
05/22/08 07:15 PM
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Quote:

why are 70' 318"'s rated at 9.0 compression, but dont make it?

what will happen with the national backorder? arent they discontinued due to moparPerformance.




Summit, Mancini and Jegs told me they expect the Mopar SB head gaskets at the end of the first week of June or so they are being told anyhow. I couldnt wait so I ordered a set of Mr Gasket .028 head gaskets through Summit, the part number is 1121. I got them today, and I tell you what I will almost swear to it that they are the same gasket as the MP's. They are white embossed sticky material on a steel gasket just identical to the set of Mopar ones I had to remove off an unfired engine because I forgot to have the inner step cut off the valve guides area of my J heads for the double springs. I called Mr Gasket in Cleveland before I called Summit to see if they had them on shelf in their warehouse and they said yeah got plenty. Summit doesnt stock them and they call them special order. Same goes for Jegs. Summit then had them dropped shipped to me direct. Only problem is they charged like $48.95 for the set of Mr G's versus the $35 they charge for the MP's. Though dollars to doghnuts says they are the same gasket. They look IDENTICAL.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: HotRodDave] #60614
05/23/08 08:21 AM
05/23/08 08:21 AM
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The 68-69 318's were advertised as 9.2:1 compression. My 68 pistons are .050 in the hole and it came with .020 head gaskets.

Does anyone know what the stock early open chamber 318 heads measure in CC's?

The 302's I am portig, with 1.88 and 1.6 valves and no milling, measured 58 CC's.

BTW: Dont forget that when a close chamber head is milled you dont gain as mush compression as an open chamber head.

Re: 318 head CCs ? Compression increase needed! [Re: Rapid340] #60615
05/23/08 09:32 AM
05/23/08 09:32 AM
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My early open chamber 318 heads measured at 64 CC.
I can't say about the stock pistons, all the 318 I have (or had) laying around were .030 over, but the replacement pistons were more than .100 down in the hole.
Just as a side note, I suggest that no one should believe any high compression claims on any 318 engines, unless verified by measuring.
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
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