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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: Stanton]
#600831
02/03/10 12:27 AM
02/03/10 12:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503 Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!
He's a very intelligent and experienced individual and engine builder and someone I would consider a friend. I'm just relating my experiences and opinions on the matter, not putting anyone down.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600833
02/03/10 01:10 AM
02/03/10 01:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503 Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
The distortion is caused by the bolts being torqued into the deck. The bolt torque is the only force and can be duplicated by just using a spacer. The spacer length is what is critical because you need to have the proper thread engagement into the block.
If you look at a torque plate the material between the bolts isn't doing anything. It can't do much because all of the load is applied with the bolts and there is no other load.
There might be a small amount of clamping load transmitted to the deck from the plate but the primary force is the torque from the bolts.
Engine builders don't use individual spacers because it is a real pain to install them all rather than just drop a plate onto the deck. But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the parts we have the spacer trick will work just fine.
Using spacers and no plate would be counter productive for an engine builder/machinist. I have plates that use spacers along with ARP hardware to not only maintain the correct thread engagement, but to ensure that the torque is applied to the fastener of correct length and made of the same material. Using a grade 8 bolt with have different results than an ARP high strength bolt or stud for that matter. There are clamping loads, albeit small, transmitted to the deck and they have an effect. What will have a greater effect is putting a head gasket under that torque plate and seeing the forces change the shape of the bores.
A lot of people bolt water pumps to the front of blocks and put bellhousing bolts in and torque them to simulate those forces as well. You can get wayyyyy too caught up in trying to simulating all that.
I agree that for a guy in Lima, Peru the spacers would be better than nothing at all.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600834
02/03/10 01:14 AM
02/03/10 01:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242 Upland, California
Spode
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
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Quote:
But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the partes we have the spacer trick will work just fine.
i think its pretty cool some guy in peru is into mopars and builds them also keep up the good work.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: CRE2004]
#600835
02/03/10 02:47 AM
02/03/10 02:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,054 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,054
Oregon
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I don't think the plate does much but if it does then a guy could build a one hole plate and just move it from bore to bore. That would be easier than building a whole plate.
I know that people do all kinds of things but that doesn't mean it matters. Witch doctors flip chicken guts around to cure people, doesn't mean it does anything. A lot of engine builders are witch doctors in their own way. They do certain rituals but it doesn't mean that it makes a difference. Just like ballplayers who wear the same socks for every game or don't shave when they are on a winning streak.
I'm pretty sure that a bolt torqued into a cast iron block 6 inches away doesn't do anything to a cylinder bore. The stress is very local and there isn't enough force involved to move material that is outside the immediate area. The thread torque is only being applied to the threads in the block. Once those threads in the block distort they absorb all of the force and there isn't anything left to move material further away.
Of course, all of this is very dependent on the engine block in question. I think the SB Ford engines are the worst for bore distortion due to thin walls and thin deck. Some engines don't even need torque plates because the head bolts don't go into the deck. The new LS motors are like that with the bolts doing down into the bottom of the block. You can torque on those all day and the cylinder bores don't distort. I think the Mopar NASCAR engine is the same way.
Last edited by AndyF; 02/03/10 02:50 AM.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600836
02/03/10 09:09 AM
02/03/10 09:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I would think that if you put a head gasket on it changes the whole thing with the fire ring applying a completely different force and if I remember correctly most (if not all) dont use a gasket.... I would also think that the hot water would also be another major factor.... JMO
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600838
02/03/10 07:53 PM
02/03/10 07:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
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The stress is very local
I agree, that's very important. The clamping area isn't much bigger than 1" radial to the bolt itself. It's not everything, but it's the only certain thing - a full plate cannot duplicate the bending stress of an actual head casting with water passages, let alone a head with rocker stands, accessories and spring tension, and is likely to stress over or under or in the wrong places. If you can, torquing the mains in place, etc. is also useful, but has far less effect since cylinder distortion is not only much smaller (bolts aren't close to the bore) but much less critical since it's at the lowest point of cylinder pressure.
Boffin Emeritus
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