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Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
#590774
01/22/10 02:29 PM
01/22/10 02:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
Discoquik
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OP
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
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With all the talk of what, where, and who's piston to use, some input from the masses might be good to hear on this forum. I would like some input as to what would be considered popular but not available or currently made without the correct offerings in today's Mopar market. It is time for us to revisit what we offer and be certain we are covering our bases. We have always supplied Mopar Performance crate motor programs as well as Indy Cylinder Head in the past and they covered the market very well. We just want to be sure there is adequate coverage for what is being built TODAY. Things to consider are that it needs to sell well to justify shelf-stock status. For example, we don't look at building 273 blower pistons as a viable shelf part. A good example of success is our ProTru 408 dish and flat-top. They do VERY well, but is a dome version needed for full race applications? Is there a desire for metric rings with napier seconds, strutted forgings, tool steel pins, coatings, Gas ported full race, etc? Are there new stroker combos there are no compression heights available in shelf kits? We released the oddball 1.155" Quick 8 and Quick 16 parts for the BBC crowd and they fly off the shelfs. But granted at this point in time they are being used primarily by high level builders only, mainly because it's a not very well known combo that is pushing 1200HP with conventional heads. It will trickle down eventually and already has started this winter build season as word is spreading. But anyway, looking for some ideas. We have some really nice strutted forgings skirt coated with metric nitrited and napier ring sets for late-model Hemis. It would be a shame not to offer these for the older engines as well. Any input from the Bob Georges, Scotty Koffels, and Nick Wilsons of our world, as well as the guys like me just bracket racing or on the street are welcome. 
Last edited by Discoquik; 01/22/10 02:30 PM.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: Discoquik]
#590777
01/22/10 02:59 PM
01/22/10 02:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,454
Florida STAYcation
dOoC
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,454
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
I know alot of them where industrial engines but how many are around?
I don't know of ANYONE that would want to rebuild a 413 to the OEM industrial/truck/motorhome spec. Those hugely dished pistons are offered on eBay all the time ...with very few bidders.
A flat-top piston is needed ...with a slightly higher CD to UPgrade even a MH application.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: Discoquik]
#590778
01/22/10 03:11 PM
01/22/10 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
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Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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On SB front, Ross is only one who offers an off shelf Dome piston for 4" crank... Everyone offers Dish & FT's with 1/16 1/16 3/16 Ring pack, there is glut of that basic stuff out there. Problem is doing 12:1+ motors with 65+ CC chambers is next to impossible with flat top stuff.... You have to mill heads to death to make decent compression for a race motor these days with the off shelf offerings. The Ross is ok, piece but is very basic, heavy & has pin fit issues, also only available in 1 or 2 bore sizes I do believe...
But what I'd like to see available would be an off shelf 6-8CC positive displacement dome that fits an Edelbrock/INDY closed Chamber..... & since it would primarily only be used in a race app, I'd offer it with a .043/.043/3MM or 1.2 1.5 3MM Ring pack etc. & also add some gas ports.... Offer it available in both .984" & .927" Pin version.
Other big issue I run into is bore sizing..... I really like Probe stuff for a budget deal.... They only offer their 4" stuff in real small bore sizes 4.03/4.04 off top of my head. Really stupid.... Good factory blocks in small bores are getting harder & harder to find.... so limiting to small bores really is a crutch. I just had 2 SB's come in recently to be turned into 4" shortblocks.... one was 360 already @ 4.06 & other was 340 already @ 4.08... really limited my piston choices, I had to go to semi unusual (for me) piston sources for those 2 bore sizes. KB in one & Wiseco in other.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: RyanJ]
#590781
01/22/10 03:21 PM
01/22/10 03:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
Discoquik
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member
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OP
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
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Quote:
On SB front, Ross is only one who offers an off shelf Dome piston for 4" crank... Everyone offers Dish & FT's with 1/16 1/16 3/16 Ring pack, there is glut of that basic stuff out there. Problem is doing 12:1+ motors with 65+ CC chambers is next to impossible with flat top stuff.... You have to mill heads to death to make decent compression for a race motor these days with the off shelf offerings. The Ross is ok, piece but is very basic, heavy & has pin fit issues, also only available in 1 or 2 bore sizes I do believe...
But what I'd like to see available would be an off shelf 6-8CC positive displacement dome that fits an Edelbrock/INDY closed Chamber..... & since it would primarily only be used in a race app, I'd offer it with a .043/.043/3MM or 1.2 1.5 3MM Ring pack etc. & also add some gas ports.... Offer it available in both .984" & .927" Pin version.
Other big issue I run into is bore sizing..... I really like Probe stuff for a budget deal.... They only offer their 4" stuff in real small bore sizes 4.03/4.04 off top of my head. Really stupid.... Good factory blocks in small bores are getting harder & harder to find.... so limiting to small bores really is a crutch. I just had 2 SB's come in recently to be turned into 4" shortblocks.... one was 360 already @ 4.06 & other was 340 already @ 4.08... really limited my piston choices, I had to go to semi unusual (for me) piston sources for those 2 bore sizes. KB in one & Wiseco in other.
Very good post and makes sense. I am looking at building the very same piston you seek with 1.2 1.2 3mm NPR rings and vertical gas ports. What compression heights are a good "fits all" for most of your SBM applications? We are currently at 1.460" for our Pro Tru line.
Good info. This is how you can average out what is most common and hone in on the best middle ground possible to satisfy the extremes.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: ademon]
#590783
01/22/10 04:14 PM
01/22/10 04:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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How about a .070 over 426 Hemi piston for use with a 4.15 crank and hemi length (6.86) rods? There are a ton of old hemi race blocks out there that are a worn out .060 over....those old blocks will not go to 4.50 bore. A .070 overbore Hemi piston for use with that crank might be the ticket....I know someone who might be interested. 
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: AndyF]
#590789
01/22/10 06:03 PM
01/22/10 06:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
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master
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Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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I can say that no one is building stock stuff anymore...With Aftermarket blocks only a phone call away, people have seen the light...Seems everyone is building large cubic inch engines...
We want a variety of big bore large stroke engines... 572's are common now..
4.5 x 4.5 bore pistons for BOTH Hemi and Wedge engines.
The 540 stuff isnt far behind... 4.5 bore with a 4.45 stroke.
Make a piston for the pump gas crowd in theses sizes, and offer a race style piston which needs to be in the 13.5-14:1 range...
Make these pistons compression height with the now common 7.1 long rod, and with the lighter 2.2 rod pins.
I personally would have purchased a few sets..I have..they werent shelf stuff though.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: Discoquik]
#590790
01/22/10 08:21 PM
01/22/10 08:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Very good post and makes sense. I am looking at building the very same piston you seek with 1.2 1.2 3mm NPR rings and vertical gas ports. What compression heights are a good "fits all" for most of your SBM applications? We are currently at 1.460" for our Pro Tru line.
The 1.46 works well, I would'nt change that... & if you offered it in .927 pin as well, guys running a 6.125" rod on it would be bumped up to 9.585" Deck which would be fine as well...
I don't do alot of factory blocks, but when I do, it's rare to find one that won't cleanup by 9.583". I did just do a 360 that had to go 9.580, but .003" out of hole no biggie with a composite gasket.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: 8secDart]
#590791
01/22/10 08:39 PM
01/22/10 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,875
communist bloc of new jersey
jamesc
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communist bloc of new jersey
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Quote:
Stock stroke 400 pistons.These would be a great help on budget builds.
Quote:
The main thing I see missing from the shelf stock offerings are compression heights for use with Chevy connecting rods. I don't see any reason to build Mopar engines with Mopar rods anymore, especially any stroker motors.
two of my personal favorites. mopar rods are pretty much pointless and the 400 deserves a decent piston 
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: Discoquik]
#590792
01/25/10 04:28 AM
01/25/10 04:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,454
Florida STAYcation
dOoC
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
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Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
The only we could go to bat for that one would be numbers. How many kits are really going to be used.Isn't the 440 much more commonly used?
How many sets ? ... at what point - for you - does it get to be a more of an "assembly-line" operation and thus get the costs down?
BTW ... some piston Q's .....what is the minimum safe distance for the top ring - to the top of the piston? ... How tight do you set ring groove clearance ? On a 4.22 piston(30 over 413) ... what would your forged blank and machined piston weigh approx? ... the cast unit weighs 1025.
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Re: Realistic Look At Shelf Stock Piston Offerings
[Re: dOoC]
#590793
01/25/10 02:57 PM
01/25/10 02:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
Discoquik
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OP
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Cleveland Ohio
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10-15-25 sets a year? That would be considered a decent mover. Usually then it's narrowed down to which oversizes to make. The top land can be as high as .150 if the application will let it live. Some of my Comp and Prostock guys are running that and then some. Usually the valve pocket and ring radial depths are what dictate what happens there. Some needless info on that is a prominent Pro Stock head and intake builder said when he was with a cup team they saw 8hp in a .050" shorter top land. Just moving the rings up created that much horsepower in a Dodge Cup motor. So some food for thought with everyone pushing for .300+ top lands. The weights of the forging and piston will vary based on what all is done. It would require a models to gauge what it would weigh. A 4.350 bore buick 455 FlatTop piston weighs 664grams. BBC pistons with a little 21cc dome are 650 grams. Anybody have any specific compression heights that are lacking or bore sizes that are NA like Shady Dell mentioned earlier? I guess we need to look at "street" and "race" categories and also what "type" of piston is needed. Wiseco features will push the parts into the normal range of the full race stuff where as a Pro Tru version will put it above some competitors pricing but well below the Wiseco line. I would think a race version of the 408 SBM pistons with dome would benefit the most with "Wiseco" features but then will the market pay the premimum of being a "Wiseco" versus "ProTru" version? That is the battle. So typically I try to build a Pro Tru part that includes rings, uses the same forgings, same design "ideas" but with lower cost for most street/bracket race applications. Usually it is more inline with what the masses are willing or able to spend. Thanks for the input guys, I will be trying to harvest all this and see what we can come up with. At the end of the day we would love to cover every application, but we also need to be able to justify the cost and inventory. Being a Mopar guy through and through it is nice to look at this and see what we can build to help support our hobby. But I will be first to admit the the order of poularity is LS-1,Sport Compact, Big Block Chevy and then the Small Block Chevy, in that order, but we DO like to support the popular "oddballs" too! 
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