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STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
#58975
05/17/08 06:10 PM
05/17/08 06:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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in my 22 years as a mechanic.. never ever ran into this kinda problem. so here goes....
1997 neon, replaced the front pads, adjusted up the rear shoes and whoa, no pedal.
changed the master cylinder (bench bled), bled the brakes, still no pedal.
changed the m/c again, still no pedal. checked all the lines, wheel cylinder etc,
no leaks. bled them a 3rd and 4th time, still no pedal. when i mean no pedal..
i mean right to the floor. what the heck is going on here?
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58976
05/17/08 06:23 PM
05/17/08 06:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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I've seen on these fwd chryslers, that it is very important to have a wheel nut holding the rotors in place when you put the calipers back on. If not, it's easy for it to be installed cocked off to one side. Looks fine, but's it's crooked. The pedal travel is all taken up straightening it back out again. The guy who did it in my shop had 30 plus years of trade experience, so it can happen to anyone. Something to check anyway. 
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58977
05/17/08 06:24 PM
05/17/08 06:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,922
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,922
Grand Prairie,Texas
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Start from the begining. What happened to need the brake swap? When you say no pedal does that mean it never pumps up or what?
Last edited by stumpy; 05/17/08 06:25 PM.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: stumpy]
#58978
05/17/08 06:28 PM
05/17/08 06:28 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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just came in cause the pads where worn out. still had lots of pedal. changed the front pads, the brake pedal went right to the floor, i told my helper its normal, and just pump up the brakes. but they would not pump up. they just go right to the floor.  Dave571.. did the wheel nut to hold the rotor thing. thanks 
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58979
05/17/08 06:29 PM
05/17/08 06:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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I was sure it was the wind....
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: stumpy]
#58981
05/17/08 06:36 PM
05/17/08 06:36 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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yah, there was enough there to hold the wheels. front and back. i also adjusted the rear shoes up.
i visually looked to see if the calipars and wheel cylinders were moving, they were.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58982
05/18/08 08:20 AM
05/18/08 08:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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Had an Itntepid at work with the same kind of problem.New pads all around and no pedal.Installed new master as it was bad still no pedal.It was the PP valve that is for non ABS brakes only.Couldnt get any pressure or fluid especially the rears.A new block from dealer and great brakes.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: therocks]
#58983
05/18/08 08:33 AM
05/18/08 08:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,728
places
79powerwagon
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,728
places
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Maybe I'm too anal about brakes, but this is why when my brakes are about 5-7 years old and needing a pad change, I simply dive in and replace the ENTIRE brake system, including hard and soft lines. Yes, it's bucks, but it sure eliminates the frustrations kinda like you're going through now!  Of course, you say this is a customer's car, so they won't want to cough up the ching to do it, but for my personal vehicles, this is what I always do. Money well spent, in my opinion!
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58985
05/18/08 10:50 AM
05/18/08 10:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Almost sounds like your master is too small. The first one may have been damaged or got something in the piston cup to cause the master bypass and go bad but the replacements do not have enough volume to pump up the brakes. After a couple quick pumps does the pedal come up? I've always heard but never experience that if you push too much or too hard when bleeding the master you could damage it. Another thing could be a big air buble in the system that got pushed in when the master was replaced. On some cars this air can be a total pain to remove with out pressure bleeding. Are you using a power bleeder or manually bleeding it? Good luck 
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: HealthServices]
#58986
05/18/08 11:24 AM
05/18/08 11:24 AM
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Anonymous
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pedal woudn't come up no matter what. and yah.. manually bleeding it, no power bleeder. if theres still air in it, its hiding pretty good  . i'll try gravity bleed it today, if that fails, then i'll change porportioning valve. stupid neon messing up my whole long weekend 
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#58988
05/18/08 11:38 AM
05/18/08 11:38 AM
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Anonymous
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Unregistered
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Anonymous
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well they face to the "side". otherwise they are at its highest point.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58989
05/18/08 12:09 PM
05/18/08 12:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
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When you compressed the pistons did you loosen the bleeders to relieve the pressure or force it back into the MC? If you forced it back to the MC you may have damaged the proportioning valve. Just a thought.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58990
05/18/08 01:59 PM
05/18/08 01:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Got ABS?
If so there is a specific method to bleed them, the regular old style doesn't do it.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: Supercuda]
#58991
05/18/08 05:49 PM
05/18/08 05:49 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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no abs. tried everything today, including replacing the p-valve. result? same thing this thing is gonna be the death of me. did 100's of brake jobs.. replace the front pads, adjust the rear drums, out the DOOR no problem. this thing is driving me  gonna save it to tuesday, get a vacuum bleeder and try again. thanks for the help everyone 
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58992
05/18/08 06:34 PM
05/18/08 06:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 292
dead center
CHRONiklyDEMONic
Demonized
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Demonized
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 292
dead center
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Trial and error. There are only a number of components. Check, check again, and then recheck.
Remember, NEVER count on "new parts" to be in working order, no matter what the box says.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
"After a Day filled with burning Rubber, you may find it time to re-tire."
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: RobR]
#58994
05/18/08 07:43 PM
05/18/08 07:43 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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CHRONiklyDEMONic.. i know never to trust "new" parts.. i will keep yall posted tho. RobR.. damn near replace everything twice or three times (master cylinder). Its gotta be air somewhere.. even tho the brakes bleed normally (ie: no air coming out). m/c checked out just peachy. It started out as a simple 15min change the pad thing.. which is now on day two.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58995
05/18/08 09:30 PM
05/18/08 09:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,507
Royersford, PA
bschargerse
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,507
Royersford, PA
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See if you can borrow one of those "phoenix injectors" that reverse bleeds the system, basically pushes the air back to the MC from the bleeder screw. I have a tech friend who swears by it. Worth a shot.
Brian - 1971 Dodge Challenger
"The Dodge, which was practically stock, just left the Mustang like you wouldn't believe."
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: bschargerse]
#58996
05/18/08 09:39 PM
05/18/08 09:39 PM
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Anonymous
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Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Unregistered
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never heard of those. i'll ask when i go get the vac. bleeder.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#58997
05/19/08 12:13 AM
05/19/08 12:13 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
quick77rt
Parts Problem
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Parts Problem
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
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porportioning valve problem, I never thought they could go bad, dont know whats in them, check valves, or balls but they do go bad and sounds like this could be one of them... remember when you compress the calips your pushing fluid back when its supposed to be going the other way????? Let us know please....
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: quick77rt ]
#58998
05/19/08 12:28 AM
05/19/08 12:28 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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replace BOTH p-valves. notta  i keep the m/c cap of when i push the pistons back. but i'll tell yah.. so far i'm lookin' like a clown in my customers eyes. 
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: p d'ro]
#59000
05/20/08 05:27 PM
05/20/08 05:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,558
Montana
FuryUs
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,558
Montana
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Quote:
So what happened today????? Gotta know... What else would cause the pedal not to come back up? I have heard of an internal break in the rubber line acting like a one way valve, so the pedal will not come back after it is pushed... I would replace the rubber lines. They are probably old as hell...
It's a '97 Neon--hell's way older than that. The collpsed line wouldn't allow the pedal to the floor if everything else was good.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
[Re: HealthServices]
#59003
05/20/08 07:29 PM
05/20/08 07:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
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I've found this problem on two Neons, a '96 & '98. Remove both rear drums and make sure the shoes are still attached to the steel mount. They're just glued and do come off. Both cars had very low pedal and the owners couldn't figure it out. The shoes actually came loose and were at the bottom of the drum so when adjusting them you could feel drag but since there was no shoe left at the top, when brakes were applied the wheel cylinders would travel all the way out but push on nothing, causing low or no pedal.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#59004
05/20/08 10:50 PM
05/20/08 10:50 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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found the problem. my helper wasn't following my orders on when to pump the brakes and when to hold them. suffice to say.. he's no longer my helper. thanks for all your reply's guys
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: HealthServices]
#59006
05/20/08 11:47 PM
05/20/08 11:47 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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yah, i did it myself. jar filled with brake fluid and a hose from the bleeder to the jar. i didn't charge her for all the extra stuff, wasn't her fault.. so i ate it. she was very happy
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: RodStRace]
#59009
05/21/08 09:31 AM
05/21/08 09:31 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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mabey it was me.. who knows..
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: quick77rt ]
#59012
05/21/08 03:16 PM
05/21/08 03:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,924
Tri-Cities, Washington
VITC_GTX
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,924
Tri-Cities, Washington
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Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
 Now that's funny...and true!!
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: VITC_GTX]
#59013
05/21/08 11:00 PM
05/21/08 11:00 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Now that's funny...and true!!
very funny
that kid has been retardo since day one. this was just the last straw.
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT!
#59015
05/22/08 02:23 AM
05/22/08 02:23 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,751
Graham, WA
Polarapete
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,751
Graham, WA
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I once did a master cylinder replacement on a VW Rabbit and could not get pedal after bleeding the brakes many times. Finally discovered pin holes in the hard brake lines leading from front to rear in the perimeter of the driver's footwell!! Car had a water leak in the cowl and soaked the carpet backing, kept the tubing wet and over the years pinholes developed! Trace the metal lines and verify no leaks is my suggestion.
1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction
1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver.
2008 Honda Element
2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
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Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
[Re: quick77rt ]
#59016
05/22/08 08:37 AM
05/22/08 08:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Glad its fixed, there is always the do it alone method, either a rubber strap on pedal from the backside or the concrete block leaning on the pedal, pop bleader let it go a few seconds re-set block.....
That made me laugh, the storey about your girl.
Also love your no helper method. That's ingenious.
I've had to get my kids to help me on occasion. My boys are old enough 8 and 13 to help out but there has been a few times my girl, who is 5, was the only one available. I'd disconnect the throttle cable, run the engine and have her pump the pedal. Watch for brake lights and crack the screw.
Quote:
I wouldn't go any more (less?) than 1 degree negative. Actually, to me that is a little excessive and is bordering on tire wear, IMHO. Maybe some of these others with more experience in racing setups have a different opinion, but I don't think I'd go anymore than 1/2 degree negative.
I totally agree dodgeram440. Especially on a car with 17" rubber. Mostly likely low profile tires.
On a skinny tire car. A couple of degrees of neg camber is not a tire wear issue. Neg is great for cornering and every bit extra on a skinny front tire car helps.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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