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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: B G Racing]
#578162
01/10/10 05:47 PM
01/10/10 05:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
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Quote:
It certainly doesn't look like a radius issue. 
From that pic, I agree. Assuming the rod cap is the same.
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: Oyvind Mopar]
#578166
01/10/10 07:15 PM
01/10/10 07:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
POS Dakota
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
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Quote:
Could also be the rod is bent or twisted or both....
That's what it almost looks like from the picture. ALmost like the small end of the rod was finished at an angle.
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: B G Racing]
#578168
01/10/10 08:21 PM
01/10/10 08:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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OK Just got home....I figured out the problem...Here is what I did... Before I took out the problem rod and piston I wiped the journal clean and threw on a piece of plasti gauge. The results showed some problems. It was clear that there is no interference with the radius or bearing. The results showed no crush of the plasti gauge near the fillet/radius, which was good. It showed taper though.. about .0015 clearance were the crush began, and the closer to the center of the journal the plasti gauge widened to show only .001 or so clearance. The # 3 rod shows .003 and floats good all the way across the same journal. So I continued to trouble shoot further.... The number 8 and 7 have very good side clearance and margins. So I decided to pull number the #8 piston and install it in the number 4 hole. I first pulled the cap back off #8 and wiped the surface clean. I then proceeded to plasti gauge this rod and cap assembly. Although I feel plasti gauge is a kind of a back yard shade tree mech deal..it can serve a purpose. I torqued it down and pulled the cap back of and viewed the results...It looked great..Nice even crush, I cut a pretty long piece and placed it diagonal across the journal cover most of the cap.. There was no sign of taper etc...Clearance was right at .003 which was what I wanted. I popped out the piston and rod assembly. Installed it in the #4 hole wiped the journal clean and added a piece of plasti gauge here..I torqued it down and pulled the cap.. Again it was a mirror image of before.... No taper and clean margins.. right on the money at .003 oil clearance....so... Being pretty anal. I pulled every cap, and plasti gauged every journal..they were perfect. I now know its in the rod. Looking at the rod cap, it has the same misalignment regarding the bearing offset as seen in BG part II thread. The wrist pin and small end floats nice and easy you can see both the wrist pin floating and turning on the rod, and in the piston working it back and forth. I went ahead and put the bearing back in the rod and torqued it too spec, I forgot too check the bearing number before I done this..Who knows it might have a miss matched bearing half's.. Sorry I didnt get no pictures..I felt on edge and wasnt in the picture taken mood...LOL... I am glad its not the crank.. I did get the cam degree'd..Im not sure how to install the cam so...Atleast I know the timing chain is correct..I first degree'd it on the 4° advance keyway...it cam in right at 105.5-106 ICL checking it twice....I then started from scratch and installed it at 0° (straight up) and degree'd it again...it came in at 109.5-110 ICL checking it twice again...I feel pretty confident that if I use the +2° advance key way..I probably wont degree it and check it, although I probably will LOL. well the kids have made me a B-day cake so..... 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#578172
01/10/10 08:59 PM
01/10/10 08:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
you better pull that crank and take it to get miced. and forget abot the plastic guage in this case. 
I may end up doing just that Tony...
I will see what he has too say about this...He usually is very thorough..
I always have him set bearing clearance for me.. By doing this he torques up everything with the bearings installed and uses a dial bore gauge and mic..
I choose the bearing clearance..he does what it takes to make it to my specs...Never had a problem..
This way there aren't suppose to be any surprises during assembly.
When we first got the kit, the crank was on the high end of tolerance (big side)
Then the problem with new World Block the mains which required a line bore/hone to fix a tight main with taper...With the first set of bearings I was only going to have about .0025 on the rods...I wanted more, so he sent the original bearings back and exchanged them for the HXN, which added a extra thou of bearing clearance.
I plan to ask why this problem occurred, and if I had not check, and double check everything, and went on a run the engine it could have been bad...very bad...
He has been doing my machine work for almost 20 years. But I dont care if its been a 1000 years...I can not, and will not tolerate a error that could have destroyed a pretty high dollar engine...Fact is if this one breaks..there probably wont be any Do-Overs..so its gotta be right from the start..
take it somehwere for a second opinion  . don't take the chance.
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: rowin4]
#578174
01/10/10 10:24 PM
01/10/10 10:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
you better pull that crank and take it to get miced. and forget abot the plastic guage in this case.
What part of glad it wasn't the crank didn't you understand? 
after his last 2 posts I don't think he's sure and using the plasti guage is really not the best way to varify it don't you think? but hay if your sure run that thing. maybe you will warranty it
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: Quicktree]
#578176
01/10/10 10:38 PM
01/10/10 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
you better pull that crank and take it to get miced. and forget abot the plastic guage in this case.
What part of glad it wasn't the crank didn't you understand?
after his last 2 posts I don't think he's sure and using the plasti guage is really not the best way to varify it don't you think? but hay if your sure run that thing. maybe you will warranty it
I see nothing wrong with using plasigauge, it's been used for years, not the most accurate way , but it will show a problem as Bob found.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: rowin4]
#578177
01/10/10 10:41 PM
01/10/10 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
you better pull that crank and take it to get miced. and forget abot the plastic guage in this case.
What part of glad it wasn't the crank didn't you understand?
after his last 2 posts I don't think he's sure and using the plasti guage is really not the best way to varify it don't you think? but hay if your sure run that thing. maybe you will warranty it
I see nothing wrong with using plasigauge, it's been used for years, not the most accurate way , but it will show a problem as Bob found.
well  with that but I would still have it double checked if it were me
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#578180
01/10/10 11:17 PM
01/10/10 11:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Quote:
Give him the chance to figure out what happened, don't assume he screwed up and be glad you did your part of it. Remember, it's the assembler's job to catch things. If it had blown up it wouldn't have been your machinist's fault, it woulda been yours. Thankfully your meticulous nature caught it. But again, give your machinist the chance to figure out if it was a fault of his or if it's not.
Yep..
You gotta understand this guy..I swear before the Mopar Gods, he is the type that if he found a envelope of money at the entrance of a bank, he would promptly take it in side and turn it in.
I kinda agree with Tony..A second opinion wouldnt be a bad idea. But I know he wont lie, I plan to ask him how closely he looked at the rods. he wont lie.
Heck at this point, I wouldnt care if the crank needed turned to correct any problems..Yes it sucks, yes its more money, but hay..you know it will be right.
Plasti Gauge...
We amateur engine builders have used it. I try to keep it around. No it has no business in a performance engine assemblers hand.
Its only down fall is it just wont tell the whole story. It can read tapper to a point. It wont tell you if a rod is egg shaped. But in a questionable area it can really be useful. I knew that if the problem went away with the diff piston and rod..It pretty much eliminated the crank as the root cause.
We are only human. Anyone can make a mistake...Ever been gaping a ring and forget were you are on a particular ring gap cause you got side tracked a few seconds?
LOL....
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Rotating assembly problem ...
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#578181
01/10/10 11:41 PM
01/10/10 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Plasti Gauge... We amateur engine builders have used it. I try to keep it around. No it has no business in a performance engine assemblers hand. Its only down fall is it just wont tell the whole story. It can read tapper to a point. It wont tell you if a rod is egg shaped. But in a questionable area it can really be useful. I knew that if the problem went away with the diff piston and rod..It pretty much eliminated the crank as the root cause. We are only human. Anyone can make a mistake...Ever been gaping a ring and forget were you are on a particular ring gap cause you got side tracked a few seconds? LOL....
Years ago when I used plastigauge I had a issue, I
measured it and it showed tight(for what I wanted)
so I took my rods to a shop and had them checked,
he measured them to be right where I wanted them...
found out that if the plastigauge is old it doesnt
work right.... bought some new plastigauge and it
showed correct.... since then I bought the proper
equipment to build engines with
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