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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: MIKES_DUSTER]
#569558
01/04/10 12:35 PM
01/04/10 12:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Hey Bob,
Not sure if you want to say but what is Brandon saying about this problem??
Brandon and I are not discussing the issues,we are only discussing business.This is an unbiased,non influnced build and specific to this random kit that I aquired at a great price.This post is about the "facts,just the facts".On previous kits we assembled we had a diffrent set of issues,crank to block clearences(counter weight) and bearing to crank.As Brandon pointed out the block issues can be the cause and we found this to be true with another brand kit as well.Our thoughts was to present the findings so that anyone using these kits can be watchful for issues and determine are the kits really a cost saving alternative.I highly doubt that any one kit is going to reflect or mirrior every kit.I would do the same with any kit that I use if there were concerns
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: turbobitt]
#569561
01/04/10 01:40 PM
01/04/10 01:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob
When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.
There is no reason to cut the crank,it is with in spec with a little runout on #1 main and snout.This can be tweaked at Pittsburgh Crank Co. and if that doesn't cure it that journal can be dressed as Source's nitride extends to .014.We will clean up and finish the rod journal hole and the flange,check and rebalance.The journal tapers are within spec. The main bearings are cut to fit the radius's,end play is correct and no issues on the rod journal radius's.Remember we are trying to keep it a budget build not see how bad we can make it or how much money we can spend unnessarrly.That would not be fair to anyone.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#569562
01/04/10 01:42 PM
01/04/10 01:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Some are missing the point. We are NOT bashing 440 Source, only pointing out what was found and what it will take to fix it. You buy a low cost kit, you expect it not to be perfect. The question is, does the low cost kit, save you enough, to pay to repair the issues and still save money over the better kit. As far as whether these issues have been corrected in newer kits, is an impossible question to answer. You would just have to check it and see. My opinion, not likely. Lets face facts guys, these are cheap kits, yes prices were raised recently, but do you think that was done because they are spending more time with machining to make tolerances better, or because the raw forging price went up. I am betting on the steel went up myself. Regardless, the fact remains, given the history, you MUST check these parts. You may get one that needs little work, you may get one that needs a lot. But as stated, they are NOT "ready to run kits". Personally, I "check" every part I get, be it a cheaper part, or a billet crank from Bryant. The difference is, the better parts are always "right". I like to save money as much as anybody, but if a couple hundred extra upfront, saves me time and money in the long run, that is a no brainer........Another option, is to buy the low cost kit from BG, Muscle Motors, or some such other place. Yes, it will cost you more than direct from Source, but the issues will be corrected. But again, you will have to weigh this cost vs the better kit up front. Lets just see what the final costs are going to be when BG gets done. I feel sure he will give a fair account of the results.
Monte
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#569563
01/04/10 01:49 PM
01/04/10 01:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory
Quote:
Unfinished rod journal.-1
That is just a poor finishing issue, not a balance issue. It does not really matter, it is just the appearance that it was missed. All that type work is done, then the crank balanced. Be interesting to see what BG finds on the balance. Personally, I hate to see counterweights drilled full of holes. If you are setting weights while on the grinder, just trim the counterweights.
Monte
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#569564
01/04/10 01:54 PM
01/04/10 01:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory
Quote:
Unfinished rod journal.-1
I feel your wrong for the following reasons,the crank stamped bobweight is heavier than the actual bobweight,so the crank needed to be lightened anyway,the hole was much smaller to begin with and the metal was peeled of surrounding the hole with a machinist pick,It
could have easily enlarged itself under use(it was very thin)and found its way to the oil system and the all inclusive"most all internal balancing is done at the crank counter weights.So unless there is a new method of balancing That I'am not aware off,I have to kindly disagree.If I'am wrong I apologise. 
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#569565
01/04/10 01:59 PM
01/04/10 01:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,185
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,185
PA.
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Quote:
Some are missing the point. We are NOT bashing 440 Source, only pointing out what was found and what it will take to fix it. You buy a low cost kit, you expect it not to be perfect. The question is, does the low cost kit, save you enough, to pay to repair the issues and still save money over the better kit. As far as whether these issues have been corrected in newer kits, is an impossible question to answer. You would just have to check it and see. My opinion, not likely. Lets face facts guys, these are cheap kits, yes prices were raised recently, but do you think that was done because they are spending more time with machining to make tolerances better, or because the raw forging price went up. I am betting on the steel went up myself. Regardless, the fact remains, given the history, you MUST check these parts. You may get one that needs little work, you may get one that needs a lot. But as stated, they are NOT "ready to run kits". Personally, I "check" every part I get, be it a cheaper part, or a billet crank from Bryant. The difference is, the better parts are always "right". I like to save money as much as anybody, but if a couple hundred extra upfront, saves me time and money in the long run, that is a no brainer........Another option, is to buy the low cost kit from BG, Muscle Motors, or some such other place. Yes, it will cost you more than direct from Source, but the issues will be corrected. But again, you will have to weigh this cost vs the better kit up front. Lets just see what the final costs are going to be when BG gets done. I feel sure he will give a fair account of the results.
Monte
Monte I respect you and most of your posts but when you say the better parts are always right you are wrong. My 2200.00 dollar 4.500 stroke callias crank was already cut .010 right out of the box. If it wasn't such a bother I would have reboxed it and told them to shove it up their azz.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#569566
01/04/10 02:22 PM
01/04/10 02:22 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569567
01/04/10 02:26 PM
01/04/10 02:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
supercomp
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
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Quote:
Varification-2
how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#569568
01/04/10 02:38 PM
01/04/10 02:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Respect to everyone,we have a good informative thread going and some great knowledge and experiences being shared.I have never seen balancing on a rod journal throw,so some one correct me if I'am wrong.Having used many different rotating assemblys from $1500 kits to $6000 assemblies we get to see an assortment of issues.Be it Eagle or Callies or who evers crank we we have made bearing swaps and on occasion have to mix and match bearings to make things work.I have corrected Eagle and Oliver rods.I have even use Eagle rods in 800 to 1000 HP engines  to keep cost affordable.The weakest point of most rods are the bolts,so just use ARP 2000 or L-19 bolts.Quality can be bought or made.Just like years ago when Hemi rods were limited we ground ,polished,lightened,shotpeened,bushed and change rod bolts to 1/2 on stock rods to make them live.Today I wouldn't waste my time or money on stock rods.We are lucky today to have so many suppliers of parts at all different cost and quality levels to choose from.The best is to decide the level of build and find what's best will work for you in quality and budget.Just like I understand Johns bang for the buck,I understand Monte's thought of "bite the bullet and go first class from the start".At BGR we try andmake the build to suit the user both in quality and cost.No one is wrong,just different schools of thought.
Last edited by B G Racing; 01/05/10 11:57 AM.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: supercomp]
#569569
01/04/10 02:44 PM
01/04/10 02:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Varification-2
how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?
The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569570
01/04/10 03:25 PM
01/04/10 03:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
supercomp
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Varification-2
how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?
The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.
We used a 440 callies crank in a 400 block and had to make 3 trips from balancer to
lathe but ended up with only one tiny balancing hole. Had to cut the counterwghts about .250. Of course that would be cost
prohibative if you had to pay for the extra trips I suppose.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: supercomp]
#569571
01/04/10 03:47 PM
01/04/10 03:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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Current Stroker kits:
Mancini Racing Stroker Kit (Common Eagle Kit)
$1,750.00
Balanced
.Product Description
Kit includes: Diamond dished lightweight forged pistons wit .990 pin and Diamond moly piston ring set. Eagle 4340 forged crank with 2.200" rod journal. Eagle ESP H-Beam rods. Clevite Tri metal rod and main bearing set.
440 Source
$1897 Balanced
In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.
K1 Stroker Kit (muscle motors)
$1999
Balanced
440/500: 4.15 stroke x 6.76 rod
This is the kit that stared it all. Forged dished pistons are required for pump gas compression. It is available in .030, .040 & .055 bores with quite a few different compression ratios available. This kit will require minor bore notching so that the rod bolts do not interfere with the block. You will also need to clearance the boss that the oil pick up tube screws into. Kit comes competition balanced with Plasma moly rings and chamfered bearings. A tried and true combination for the ages.
Only: $1999
Hughes Engines Balanced
$1896.00
Crank, Rods, Pistons, Rings, Rod & Main Bearings W/ Street Balance
Build your 440 into a 493 cubic inch pavement pounder with this Hughes Engines Street balanced stroker kit.
This kit features: (Includes bearings, rings and street balance)
Precision Engine brand 4340 Nitride Forged Steel 6 bolt Crankshaft - 4.150" Stroke
Precision Engine brand"H" Beam Forged Steel connecting rods approx 790 grams - 6.760" Length, 7/16 bolts
Keith Black Premium 2618 aluminum alloy Forged -23.7cc dish pistons made from aerospace quality aluminum billet. Approx 824 grams / piston & pin - 4.350" Bore (We also offer flat top pistons for higher compression ratios.)
Total Seal brand 1/16-1/16-3/16 Plasma Moly ring set
Clevite "V" series 1/2 groove Main Bearings
Clevite "V" series Rod Bearings
Internal Street Balancing
Street Balancing:
This type of balance can also be called "Box" or "Crate Engine" balancing. The weights used are those printed on the box by the manufacturer of each part. With todays C.N.C. parts, they are closer than some race parts were 10 years ago and closer than most of todays stock parts. The crankshaft is spun up and corrected to within 1/4" oz. (the same tolerance as a Race balance). For engines that spend the majority of their time below 6,000RPM this type of balance will satisfy the need of a cost conscious customer. Most of your mass market stroker kits are balanced this way.
My Carillo "RBRE"
Carillo Rods
Carillo Crank
diamond pistons
All bearings
COMPLETE Balanced $3185
Mopar Performance
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569572
01/04/10 04:00 PM
01/04/10 04:00 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight?
I feel your wrong for the following reasons,the crank stamped bobweight is heavier than the actual bobweight,so the crank needed to be lightened anyway,the hole was much smaller to begin with and the metal was peeled of surrounding the hole with a machinist pick,It
could have easily enlarged itself under use(it was very thin)and found its way to the oil system and the all inclusive"most all internal balancing is done at the crank counter weights.So unless there is a new method of balancing That I'am not aware off,I have to kindly disagree.If I'am wrong I apologise.
The person who designed that crankshaft didn't know what your finished bobweight would be, the stamped number is just the maximum that could be used without having to add weight (heavy metal) to the counterweights. The counterweights are designed around this target bobweight. If your actual bobweight matched the stamped number you got very, very lucky. The rod throws are part of the equation just as much as the piston and rods are, you just don't consider this when final balancing is done, the bobweight is added to the rod throws when balancing. This is where my point comes in: if the rod throw lightening holes had been drilled all the way through you'd have to drill more material from the counterweights to balance it for your actual bobweight. Conversely, if your actual bobweight came in higher than the stamped number you might be able to remove material from those unfinished rod throw lightening holes instead of using Mallory Metal on the counterweights. Or, I could be hallucinating, again.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: supercomp]
#569573
01/04/10 04:03 PM
01/04/10 04:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Varification-2
how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?
The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.
We used a 440 callies crank in a 400 block and had to make 3 trips from balancer to
lathe but ended up with only one tiny balancing hole. Had to cut the counterwghts about .250. Of course that would be cost
prohibative if you had to pay for the extra trips I suppose.
Yes cutting CW's down in a lathe or in a grinder is cost & time prohibitive...... Does it do a "nicer job" than just machining holes (usually done right in the balancer, if you've got a "good" one) absolutely.... but is is a necessity? Absolutely not.
As an example.... if I was doing your Callies crank, I would have charged you a flat $175 balancing fee to internally balance it, that would have included drilling any potential lightning holes.... If you wanted .250" ground off all CW's & then drilled with small holes.... would be minimum $200-$250 to take .250" off CW's so cost more than doubled. I know alot of crank shops like to talk about "hole-less balancing" but it gets pricey....
Now in instances where we have needed to do like a string of 4 or 5 1" lightning holes all to a fairly deep depth, to do a balance job.... then yes we will cut CW's to reduce drilling amt. (so we're not swiss cheesing the crank) & charge accordingly. That's just a deal where if you have a bobweight, that much lighter than target bob on the CW's you have to expect to pay to play sort of deal....Usually only happens on aluminum rod stuff.....
But a pair of 1" holes, an inch or 1.5" deep is not a big deal.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569574
01/04/10 04:06 PM
01/04/10 04:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 760
Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 760
Southington Ct.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob
When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.
Source's nitride extends to .014.Remember we are trying to keep it a budget build not see how bad we can make it or how much money we can spend unnessarrly.That would not be fair to anyone.
why would you believe that they can hold .014 depth on the nitiding when they have obvious issues with the other machined critical features of the crank. I'm not an engine machinest but definetly an end user that has bought budget stuff in the past. I would be very unconfortable with the fact that someone is shaving the bearings with a knife or grinding the crank to bring it within tolerance or pressing it back into shape because of run-out. Again, not a bashing fest but a comment from an end user looking at "budget" parts. It seems like these extra labor cost get lost/ignored in the final price of the build or when someone claims it was done on a budget. If you would report on the cost TO THE CUSTOMER and not your cost to fix, then that would interesting.
This is not a malicious stab so please don't take offense.
Allan
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: moparniac]
#569575
01/04/10 04:26 PM
01/04/10 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 642
South Dakota
dakotahotrodder
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 642
South Dakota
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Quote:
Current Stroker kits:
Mancini Racing Stroker Kit (Common Eagle Kit)
$1,750.00
Balanced
.Product Description
Kit includes: Diamond dished lightweight forged pistons wit .990 pin and Diamond moly piston ring set. Eagle 4340 forged crank with 2.200" rod journal. Eagle ESP H-Beam rods. Clevite Tri metal rod and main bearing set.
440 Source
$1897 Balanced
In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.
K1 Stroker Kit (muscle motors)
$1999
Balanced
440/500: 4.15 stroke x 6.76 rod
This is the kit that stared it all. Forged dished pistons are required for pump gas compression. It is available in .030, .040 & .055 bores with quite a few different compression ratios available. This kit will require minor bore notching so that the rod bolts do not interfere with the block. You will also need to clearance the boss that the oil pick up tube screws into. Kit comes competition balanced with Plasma moly rings and chamfered bearings. A tried and true combination for the ages.
My Carillo "RBRE"
Carillo Rods
Carillo Crank
diamond pistons
All bearings
COMPLETE Balanced $3185
Just to keep things in correct context, the Muscle Motors web site says the following: "All of our Muscle Motors kits feature our private label crankshafts. As stated in the opening statement about stroker kits: we strongly recommend micro polishing of any (except K1 and Compstar) Asian crank. As an option any of our Big Block kits can be upgraded to a K1 crankshaft for an additional charge. The K1 cranks do not require micro polishing to remove taper." I do not see where the kits are advertised as "K1".
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: dakotahotrodder]
#569576
01/04/10 04:44 PM
01/04/10 04:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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go down lower on the page. you copied that from the $1399 kit.... Call muscle motors and ask them what the upgraded $1999 kit is I believe best machine sells K1 stroker kits as well...
Mopar Performance
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