440 Source kit update part 1

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 05:05 PM

what is the price for the kit? and what is the cost to correct all problems ready to assy?

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 05:06 PM

Quote:

what is the price for the kit? and what is the cost to correct all problems ready to assy?

excellent point!

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 05:07 PM

Im sure he'll get to that once ALL the components are checked out.

Posted By: sleepychallenger

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 05:11 PM

Great Post! Can you tell us which kit this is. I am planning the 383 - 496 kit..Just waiting on funding. Really excited to see how this turns out!

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 05:15 PM

Great idea Bob...Thanks!
I've used 2 of their cranks without any of those problems but I will definitely be checking from now on those areas you've found when I buy another crank.

Posted By: KMPX2

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 06:03 PM

why did you get sent a 'early" kit

You must have missed his 1st post on this build.

Quote:

Starting to build another 440 Source stroker kit.Low deck 512".Customer has had it for quite some time and is worried that it has issues.I'am buying it and may build it and install it in one of our lucky BGR racers cars.I will be happy to share the build and the results with everyone,good or bad.We will pattern the build after the old TV series Dragnet from the fiftys and early 60s.It will be call "Just the Facts" a famous line from Sgt. Joe Friday

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 06:13 PM

Forgive my igronance but was this kit supposed to be balanced?

I may not know alot about engine balancing but it seems to me that the stamped weight and the actual bob weight are pretty far off each other.

Posted By: mickm

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 07:05 PM

Quote:

Radius interference,main bearing-2

you will probably have enough material here for a whole book by the time this post is done

can you explain what the radius interference is here? i'm not quite sure what you mean, and i can't see anything in the picture.

thanks!

Posted By: supercomp

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Radius interference,main bearing-2

you will probably have enough material here for a whole book by the time this post is done

can you explain what the radius interference is here? i'm not quite sure what you mean, and i can't see anything in the picture.

thanks!

I think he's saying the radius is big enough it's rubbing the edge of the bearing.

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 07:47 PM

many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw so bearing companies offer narrow bearings to fit these cranks but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing

Posted By: thecarfarmer

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 07:47 PM

Edit: Dirtybee typed faster than me...

The 'radius interference' is where the edge of the bearing binds on the crank.

If you look at an original crankshaft, there are sharp corners at the edges of of the journals. Most aftermarket cranks have a fillet radius at each end of the journal. This one simple detail makes the crank stronger, even with everything else being equal.

If the radius at the corner of the journal is too big, it can rub on the end of the bearing.

This is something that needs to always be checked on every build with an aftermarket crank - even if you run a narrow bearing (Clevite among others offers narrower bearings to give more clearance for exactly this situation).

FWIW, the Source had (has?) issues with the corner radii being so large that even the narrow bearings (like Clevite "HN") won't clear w/o cutting a little on the edge of the bearing. Just like shown in BG's picture.

Another issue to look for is taper on the journal, where one side is slightly larger than the other. This has nothing to do w/ the fillets in the corners, but should also be looked for on any aftermarket crank (especially a brand new one - you'd catch a funny looking bearing wear pattern on a rebuild).

My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings.

My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part.

-Bill

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/02/10 10:49 PM

Quote:

......................My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings.

My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part.

-Bill

I used one of those cranks too, and the indexing was off .035", so I sent it back (since it couldn't be offset ground and fixed) and got another.......Did you have your indexing checked?

BG......Are you going to check the indexing on that crank?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 12:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

......................My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings.

My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part.

-Bill

I used one of those cranks too, and the indexing was off .035", so I sent it back (since it couldn't be offset ground and fixed) and got another.......Did you have your indexing checked?

BG......Are you going to check the indexing on that crank?

We will correct what ever necessarry and rebalance the crank,we will keep tab on the cost.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 12:24 AM

This prompted me to look at my 440Source crank.

Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough.

The rear seal surface is smooth, not knurled. How critical is that?

So how do you check the indexing of a crank?

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 12:32 AM

I think it needs to be said that a radiused fillet at the edge of the journals IS A GOOD THING. It's one feature that makes aftermarket cranks BETTER THAN FACTORY CRANKSHAFTS. It would be easier and cheaper to just cut a right angle there and have a weaker journal.

Quote:

many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw... but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 12:42 AM

Quote:

.......The rear seal surface is smooth, not knurled. How critical is that?

So how do you check the indexing of a crank?

Smooth surface is better than knurled for regular seals.......some after market cranks put knurls in the crank, but I can't figure out why.

.......The knurl is there if you're going to use a rope seal, and who does that??? (that shows a company that copies something and doesn't even know why it's there) My Source crank was knurled there, so I had it ground off while being indexed......

Yes, indexing is important....and can only be checked in a crank grinder.....

Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 01:31 AM

I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer.
I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit.
Thanks, Brian

Posted By: cheapstreetdustr

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 02:45 AM

i am really liking this thread so far...
where else could you get this kind of data ..that keeps track of the pulse...of our hobby...

i may not have the machining tools..but id like to know what to ask my machinist to look for...
AND this gives me a way to check up on the work i pay them for..
a thread like this can paint a picture for us
shade tree guys who may never come accross these issues..or get as specific in malfunction.

thanks Bob.
cheapst

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 03:48 AM

Quote:

I think it needs to be said that a radiused fillet at the edge of the journals IS A GOOD THING. It's one feature that makes aftermarket cranks BETTER THAN FACTORY CRANKSHAFTS. It would be easier and cheaper to just cut a right angle there and have a weaker journal.

Quote:

many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw... but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing

for sure it's a good thing

good to point out though

Posted By: sc4400

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 06:12 AM

"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough."

HUH??

Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify.

RIP

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 06:54 AM

Posted By: TS3303

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 07:03 AM

Quote:

"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough."

HUH??

Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify.

RIP

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the lightening holes through the center not the oil holes.

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 07:17 AM

great thread !

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 11:32 AM

From 440source website: http://440source.com/strokerkits.htm
"In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice."

Im real curious as to total final price ready to be installed! My dad retires next year and he is budget minded all the time so this is an excellent thread to learn from

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 11:53 AM

The large radius do add strength to the crank and as long as you can"fit" the bearings and set the rod side clearence it is not a issue of concern to me.We fit the crank by scraping the main bearings and the crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.The crank will be corrected for the runout.We have not decided what to do with the rear flange but will make a decision after we check the balance.

Posted By: Somerdale Flash

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 12:15 PM

Thanks Bob for sharing... A LOT of guys just want to know the truth, good or bad...
Couldn't ask for a better person to handle this.
No one on this board is more respected.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 01:06 PM

Quote:

Thanks Bob for sharing... A LOT of guys just want to know the truth, good or bad...
Couldn't ask for a better person to handle this.
No one on this board is more respected.

Thanks,Walt and all for the the kind words.What I like about this is the others that have information to share and do so with out all the bashing and drama.Together we can pinpoint issues and learn what steps need to be taken to correct them.Some of the problems are not really problems but only typical of engine building issues that we face on a regular basis.If your buying a Ford don't expect Mercedes,but that Ford will take you everywhere that Mercedes will at quite a lesser cost.I use Ford as an example cause it is the biggest POS on the market and yet the still out sales most of the other domestic manufactures.440 Source like Ford,Indy,BG and many others will have their loyal customers,either by choise or econmics.

Returning the respect to Walt and all the other great contributers here on Moparts.

Respectfully Bob

Posted By: DCI

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 02:51 PM

This is one of the first kits correct?? Not a current offering from 440source??

Thanks for the info Bob. Hopefully 2010 will see me putting together 440source 512 kit and this is good info.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 03:17 PM

Good point! I think the earlier kits were $1597 and the new one's are currently $1897 ......

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 03:50 PM

Quote:

"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough."

HUH??

Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify.

If you go back and look at the photos, #s 1 & 2 rod journals aren't finished on the crank Bob has. I'm saying two of mine aren't finished either. These are the lightening holes, not the oil passages.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 07:18 PM

Quote:

Flange-3 Rough and uneven thickness and concentric.

My backup engine has a 440source kit, 4.250" stroke RB crank, so I checked my crank flange. The finish looks smooth and the TIR on the flange OD was 0.001" measured in the block with used "mockup" bearings.

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

I see the journal surface is finished, but the lightening hole isn't all the way though the full dia. How far is the full dia hole? I don't see any problem with that, just not pretty. On mine, only the 5-6 rod journal hole wasn't drilled all the way though, the tip of the drill broke thru and left a round hole about 0.25" dia, so it almost made it.

Quote:

Radius interference,main bearing-2

What bearings are you using? And what is the bearing total width? Since I have RB mains, I am using Clevite MS-1277HG bearings and the radius cleared. These bearings have a total width of 0.94" and at the chamfer (H) the width is about 0.84"-0.85"

Attached picture 5708508-440source_crank_flange1_800.jpg

Attached picture 5708508-440source_crank_flange1_800.jpg

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 07:26 PM

My crank snout (for damper) was slightly tapered. At the end it was 1.5315" dia and farther toward the #1 main it was 1.5320". This was measuring at 53F as my garage/workshop is that temp today. So a few .0001" larger at higher temp would be expected.

I got their 6.535" I-beam rods (several years ago), and they look like RPM Int. rods (bolt heads). http://www.rpmmaxx.com/images/Pro%20I-Beam.jpg

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

The 5-6 rod journal lightening hole. All the others were drilled completely through.

Attached picture 5708528-440source_crank_hole_56journal_800.jpg

Attached picture 5708528-440source_crank_hole_56journal_800.jpg

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 07:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Flange-3 Rough and uneven thickness and concentric.

My backup engine has a 440source kit, 4.250" stroke RB crank, so I checked my crank flange. The finish looks smooth and the TIR on the flange OD was 0.001"

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

I see the journal surface is finished, but the lightening hole isn't all the way though the full dia. How far is the full dia hole? I don't see any problem with that, just not pretty. On mine, only the 5-6 rod journal hole wasn't drilled all the way though, the tip of the drill broke thru and left a round hole about 0.25" dia, so it almost made it.

Quote:

Radius interference,main bearing-2

What bearings are you using? And what is the bearing total width? Since I have RB mains, I am using Clevite MS-1277HG bearings and the radius cleared. These bearings have a total width of 0.94" and at the chamfer (H) the width is about 0.84"-0.85"

Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 08:01 PM

Quote:

I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer.
I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit.
Thanks, Brian

Brian,having done a great deal of "stock factory" rebuilds over the last 40+ years we found that the machining was very good and specs held to good acceptable tolarences.Some of the later engines after 1971 showed more issues as the tooling was becomming worn by production use and many times it was cheaper to accept the issues or discontinue that particular part.440 blocks from 1971 and up show a lot of different issues as did the 383s.Usually you can correct those issue since you can spot the wear patterns during the disassemble,similar to what we do on a tear down and freshen up on a race engine.It was not uncommon in the early years to find one or other undersize bearing,oversize bores,oversize lifters and so on in factory production engines.The assemblers were more on their toes back then.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 08:04 PM

Quote:

Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.

My rod bearings clear also. I am using Clevite CB-743HN, this replaced the CB-743H bearings as all of the "H" are now narrowed "HN" as I understand it.

I measured an old set of low deck main bearings, Clevite MS-876P, and they were .94" wide with almost no chamfer. Compared to my "H" bearings (RB mains).

Quote:

crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.

Mine turned out to be 0.005", so it was fine too.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/03/10 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.

My rod bearings clear also. I am using Clevite CB-743HN, this replaced the CB-743H bearings as all of the "H" are now narrowed "HN" as I understand it.

Quote:

crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.

Mine turned out to be 0.005", so it was fine too.

You can't find 527HDs anymore,HNs is about the only choise.

Posted By: 1fastrunner

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 12:48 AM

This will be great information, once I understand it. I feel like a minor in a bar and not sure what to order.
Will making any adjustments to the balanced crank throw off the balance? I have seen balanced and unbalanced kits available.
Jim

Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 01:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.

My rod bearings clear also. I am using Clevite CB-743HN, this replaced the CB-743H bearings as all of the "H" are now narrowed "HN" as I understand it.

Quote:

crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.

Mine turned out to be 0.005", so it was fine too.

You can't find 527HDs anymore,HNs is about the only choise.

i ordered CB527HND that is what i used 2 yrs ago but thay were just a hair too wide and needed files edges.

Posted By: brads70

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:07 AM

Quote:

some after market cranks put knurls in the crank, but I can't figure out why. .......The knurl is there if you're going to use a rope seal, and who does that??? (that shows a company that copies something and doesn't even know why it's there) My Source crank was knurled there, so I had it ground off while being indexed......

I believe the knurl is there to direct the oil away from the seal.

Many stock cranks have this from the factory, my BB Buick did.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 06:36 AM

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 06:53 AM

Quote:

I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer.
I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit.
Thanks, Brian

This, as Bob pointed out, is a good question.....but....engines from the factory were made to drive you up and down the road, not to be flogged all the time. How many times have you seen somebody take a stock motor, add a cam, some headers and some other "go fast" parts, only to have it expire in shortorder. This is where the term "blueprinting" came to exist. You went to the junkyard, rescued yourself an engine and corrected all the little things the factory missed, you "blueprinted" it, made it right, it made power and lived. These days people buy parts, with the impression they are right, but many times they are not. The phrase, "you get what you pay for" may be more true in engine parts than anything else. In my mind, I can't possibly expect a $500, 4340 crank to be right. Because I know what it takes to get it right and you can't buy the material and do it right, for that amount of money and make a profit.

Monte

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 10:28 AM

Quote:

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also

! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 10:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.

Well said,this is the point that I was trying to make over a year ago,what can be expected with the lower cost kits and is there a cost saving once you get the corrections done.And yes,you can't compare stock production engines to be competitive.They need to be corrected and fine tuned for even a stock class.There are a lot of good info being shared,take advantage of it.Rods and pistons next.

Posted By: DCI

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 12:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.

Well said,this is the point that I was trying to make over a year ago,what can be expected with the lower cost kits and is there a cost saving once you get the corrections done.And yes,you can't compare stock production engines to be competitive.They need to be corrected and fine tuned for even a stock class.There are a lot of good info being shared,take advantage of it.Rods and pistons next.

Very good info here and I appreciate it.

BG - Any plans to buy a new(current) kit and evaluate it to see if any of the "issues" you find are fixed? or do this with some of the other kits out there?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 01:30 PM

Very good info here and I appreciate it.

BG - Any plans to buy a new(current) kit and evaluate it to see if any of the "issues" you find are fixed? or do this with some of the other kits out there?

We are communicating with Brandon on the possibility of handling his parts if we can come to terms.Anyone local want help with a current kit,can contact us.

Posted By: moper

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 01:30 PM

For those curious about whether issues were adderssed on later kits... I've used or looked at these parts since I think about 5 (maybe 6?) years ago. The last one I used was 3 years ago, a 4.25 stroke RB pkg. As of that time no issues Bob's noted had been addressed since the first few kits a couple years prior to that. Also in regard to the bobweight stamped ont he crank... I believ that's just what the counterweights are desinged to weigh so you can tell if it needs mallory or not during the planning phase. It's not what the bobweight should be. From what I understand of Source's balancing I am curious to see if this kit really is balanced and ready to go.

The two most important details of this post as it evolves is to watch and see what needs to be checked (as opposed to plastigaging or using emery to clearance piston pins), and how much it will cost to correct the issues that need to be corrected (as opposed to some issues that are acceptable "per spec"). I do believe the kits are a good value for most buyers even after spending a little extra to get things acceptable. Not "Right." or "Perfect.", but acceptable. However "ready to run" is simply not the case.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 01:41 PM

Quote:

For those curious about whether issues were adderssed on later kits... I've used or looked at these parts since I think about 5 (maybe 6?) years ago. The last one I used was 3 years ago, a 4.25 stroke RB pkg. As of that time no issues Bob's noted had been addressed since the first few kits a couple years prior to that. Also in regard to the bobweight stamped ont he crank... I believ that's just what the counterweights are desinged to weigh so you can tell if it needs mallory or not during the planning phase. It's not what the bobweight should be. From what I understand of Source's balancing I am curious to see if this kit really is balanced and ready to go.

The two most important details of this post as it evolves is to watch and see what needs to be checked (as opposed to plastigaging or using emery to clearance piston pins), and how much it will cost to correct the issues that need to be corrected (as opposed to some issues that are acceptable "per spec"). I do believe the kits are a good value for most buyers even after spending a little extra to get things acceptable. Not "Right." or "Perfect.", but acceptable. However "ready to run" is simply not the case.

As stated,we will assume that the stampings was for refrence,we will spin it and check it with the actual bobweight.

Posted By: gofish

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 01:54 PM

So, are you saying it is about the same quality as OEM "factory" parts? The factory stuff was "ready to run" according to them, and did very well for what it was intended.

Danny

Posted By: slippery440

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 02:04 PM

Quote:

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Hit the nail on the head.Sometime soon I will want to buy a kit and yes I am a cheap minded person but also I know what the bottom line is. So this build by BG is great.Only thing would be even better would be a side by side build with a higher priced "american made" kit. That would be intresting.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 02:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.

Monte

Hit the nail on the head.Sometime soon I will want to buy a kit and yes I am a cheap minded person but also I know what the bottom line is. So this build by BG is great.Only thing would be even better would be a side by side build with a higher priced "american made" kit. That would be intresting.

We already have a baseline cost for the kits using other budget kits(Eagle Assemblys)At the conclusion we will do that comparasion.Just what do you consider an "American Kit".To compare to a kit using Oliver rods,Bryant cranks,JE pistons would be worthless to most budget minded racer.Those high doller cranks cost as much or near as much as an Eagle or Source complete kit.

Posted By: slippery440

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 02:38 PM

I really don't know.

What you are saying is that the high dollar cranks alone cost as much as a kit from Source or Eagle. You are right that is out of my budget range.As far a american made kit who knows anymore.Should of said a kit that is in the same price range.Must of missed your first post on what you are trying to do.Thank you for doing this build.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 02:49 PM

Quote:

I really don't know. What you are saying is that the high dollar cranks alone cost as much as a kit from Source or Eagle. You are right that is out of my budget range.As far a american made kit who knows anymore.Should of said a kit that is in the same price range.Must of missed your first post on what you are trying to do.Thank you for doing this build.

Then you have made a fair request and at the conclusion of the build we will give the cost comparasion.This has been the concerning issue from day one,is the low cost worth it or do you spend more on corrections and labor than buying a kit at a little higher cost.

Cost is the driving factor,not where anything is made.

Posted By: justinp61

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 03:03 PM

Bob, aside from Eagle, who else are you comparing the source kits too?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 04:02 PM

Quote:

Bob, aside from Eagle, who else are you comparing the source kits too?

There are quite a few,Cat,Scat,and many suppliers are selling kits with various combinations of parts,Indy,Mancini,Ohio Crankshaft and just about all the Mopar builders,many on Moparts.We have been using Eagle from Indy with great success.

Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 04:04 PM

Hey Bob,

Not sure if you want to say but what is Brandon saying about this problem??

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 04:10 PM

Just to help the cause here for comparison! I'll check my invoice for the carillo "RBRE" stroker kit as soon as I get home! I just got it about 2 months ago!

Posted By: moper

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 04:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Bob, aside from Eagle, who else are you comparing the source kits too?

There are quite a few,Cat,Scat,and many suppliers are selling kits with various combinations of parts,Indy,Mancini,Ohio Crankshaft and just about all the Mopar builders,many on Moparts.We have been using Eagle from Indy with great success.

IMO it's fairer to say this isn't a comparison so much as an informational post. Prospective customers can do thier own comparisons. But hopefully after this, they'll know what questions to ask and what areas to be aware of when they comparison shop. There are endless combinations of kits and some kits of the same parts will be different costs from different sources simply because they already inspect and correct them.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 04:35 PM

Quote:

Hey Bob,

Not sure if you want to say but what is Brandon saying about this problem??

Brandon and I are not discussing the issues,we are only discussing business.This is an unbiased,non influnced build and specific to this random kit that I aquired at a great price.This post is about the "facts,just the facts".On previous kits we assembled we had a diffrent set of issues,crank to block clearences(counter weight) and bearing to crank.As Brandon pointed out the block issues can be the cause and we found this to be true with another brand kit as well.Our thoughts was to present the findings so that anyone using these kits can be watchful for issues and determine are the kits really a cost saving alternative.I highly doubt that any one kit is going to reflect or mirrior every kit.I would do the same with any kit that I use if there were concerns

Posted By: turbobitt

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:02 PM

Quote:

Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob

When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:22 PM

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob

When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.

There is no reason to cut the crank,it is with in spec with a little runout on #1 main and snout.This can be tweaked at Pittsburgh Crank Co. and if that doesn't cure it that journal can be dressed as Source's nitride extends to .014.We will clean up and finish the rod journal hole and the flange,check and rebalance.The journal tapers are within spec. The main bearings are cut to fit the radius's,end play is correct and no issues on the rod journal radius's.Remember we are trying to keep it a budget build not see how bad we can make it or how much money we can spend unnessarrly.That would not be fair to anyone.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:42 PM

Some are missing the point. We are NOT bashing 440 Source, only pointing out what was found and what it will take to fix it. You buy a low cost kit, you expect it not to be perfect. The question is, does the low cost kit, save you enough, to pay to repair the issues and still save money over the better kit. As far as whether these issues have been corrected in newer kits, is an impossible question to answer. You would just have to check it and see. My opinion, not likely. Lets face facts guys, these are cheap kits, yes prices were raised recently, but do you think that was done because they are spending more time with machining to make tolerances better, or because the raw forging price went up. I am betting on the steel went up myself. Regardless, the fact remains, given the history, you MUST check these parts. You may get one that needs little work, you may get one that needs a lot. But as stated, they are NOT "ready to run kits". Personally, I "check" every part I get, be it a cheaper part, or a billet crank from Bryant. The difference is, the better parts are always "right". I like to save money as much as anybody, but if a couple hundred extra upfront, saves me time and money in the long run, that is a no brainer........Another option, is to buy the low cost kit from BG, Muscle Motors, or some such other place. Yes, it will cost you more than direct from Source, but the issues will be corrected. But again, you will have to weigh this cost vs the better kit up front. Lets just see what the final costs are going to be when BG gets done. I feel sure he will give a fair account of the results.

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:49 PM

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

That is just a poor finishing issue, not a balance issue. It does not really matter, it is just the appearance that it was missed. All that type work is done, then the crank balanced. Be interesting to see what BG finds on the balance. Personally, I hate to see counterweights drilled full of holes. If you are setting weights while on the grinder, just trim the counterweights.

Monte

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:54 PM

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

Quote:

Unfinished rod journal.-1

I feel your wrong for the following reasons,the crank stamped bobweight is heavier than the actual bobweight,so the crank needed to be lightened anyway,the hole was much smaller to begin with and the metal was peeled of surrounding the hole with a machinist pick,It
could have easily enlarged itself under use(it was very thin)and found its way to the oil system and the all inclusive"most all internal balancing is done at the crank counter weights.So unless there is a new method of balancing That I'am not aware off,I have to kindly disagree.If I'am wrong I apologise.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 05:59 PM

Quote:

Some are missing the point. We are NOT bashing 440 Source, only pointing out what was found and what it will take to fix it. You buy a low cost kit, you expect it not to be perfect. The question is, does the low cost kit, save you enough, to pay to repair the issues and still save money over the better kit. As far as whether these issues have been corrected in newer kits, is an impossible question to answer. You would just have to check it and see. My opinion, not likely. Lets face facts guys, these are cheap kits, yes prices were raised recently, but do you think that was done because they are spending more time with machining to make tolerances better, or because the raw forging price went up. I am betting on the steel went up myself. Regardless, the fact remains, given the history, you MUST check these parts. You may get one that needs little work, you may get one that needs a lot. But as stated, they are NOT "ready to run kits". Personally, I "check" every part I get, be it a cheaper part, or a billet crank from Bryant. The difference is, the better parts are always "right". I like to save money as much as anybody, but if a couple hundred extra upfront, saves me time and money in the long run, that is a no brainer........Another option, is to buy the low cost kit from BG, Muscle Motors, or some such other place. Yes, it will cost you more than direct from Source, but the issues will be corrected. But again, you will have to weigh this cost vs the better kit up front. Lets just see what the final costs are going to be when BG gets done. I feel sure he will give a fair account of the results.

Monte

Monte I respect you and most of your posts but when you say the better parts are always right you are wrong. My 2200.00 dollar 4.500 stroke callias crank was already cut .010 right out of the box. If it wasn't such a bother I would have reboxed it and told them to shove it up their azz.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 01/04/10 06:22 PM

Posted By: supercomp

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 06:26 PM

Quote:

Varification-2

how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 06:38 PM

Respect to everyone,we have a good informative thread going and some great knowledge and experiences being shared.I have never seen balancing on a rod journal throw,so some one correct me if I'am wrong.Having used many different rotating assemblys from $1500 kits to $6000 assemblies we get to see an assortment of issues.Be it Eagle or Callies or who evers crank we we have made bearing swaps and on occasion have to mix and match bearings to make things work.I have corrected Eagle and Oliver rods.I have even use Eagle rods in 800 to 1000 HP engines

to keep cost affordable.The weakest point of most rods are the bolts,so just use ARP 2000 or L-19 bolts.Quality can be bought or made.Just like years ago when Hemi rods were limited we ground ,polished,lightened,shotpeened,bushed and change rod bolts to 1/2 on stock rods to make them live.Today I wouldn't waste my time or money on stock rods.We are lucky today to have so many suppliers of parts at all different cost and quality levels to choose from.The best is to decide the level of build and find what's best will work for you in quality and budget.Just like I understand Johns bang for the buck,I understand Monte's thought of "bite the bullet and go first class from the start".At BGR we try andmake the build to suit the user both in quality and cost.No one is wrong,just different schools of thought.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 06:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Varification-2

how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?

The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.

Posted By: supercomp

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 07:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Varification-2

how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?

The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.

We used a 440 callies crank in a 400 block and had to make 3 trips from balancer to
lathe but ended up with only one tiny balancing hole. Had to cut the counterwghts about .250. Of course that would be cost
prohibative if you had to pay for the extra trips I suppose.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 07:47 PM

Current Stroker kits:

Mancini Racing Stroker Kit (Common Eagle Kit)
$1,750.00
Balanced

.Product Description
Kit includes: Diamond dished lightweight forged pistons wit .990 pin and Diamond moly piston ring set. Eagle 4340 forged crank with 2.200" rod journal. Eagle ESP H-Beam rods. Clevite Tri metal rod and main bearing set.

440 Source
$1897 Balanced
In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.

K1 Stroker Kit (muscle motors)
$1999
Balanced
440/500: 4.15 stroke x 6.76 rod

This is the kit that stared it all. Forged dished pistons are required for pump gas compression. It is available in .030, .040 & .055 bores with quite a few different compression ratios available. This kit will require minor bore notching so that the rod bolts do not interfere with the block. You will also need to clearance the boss that the oil pick up tube screws into. Kit comes competition balanced with Plasma moly rings and chamfered bearings. A tried and true combination for the ages.

Only: $1999

Hughes Engines Balanced
$1896.00

Crank, Rods, Pistons, Rings, Rod & Main Bearings W/ Street Balance

Build your 440 into a 493 cubic inch pavement pounder with this Hughes Engines Street balanced stroker kit.
This kit features: (Includes bearings, rings and street balance)
Precision Engine brand 4340 Nitride Forged Steel 6 bolt Crankshaft - 4.150" Stroke
Precision Engine brand"H" Beam Forged Steel connecting rods approx 790 grams - 6.760" Length, 7/16 bolts
Keith Black Premium 2618 aluminum alloy Forged -23.7cc dish pistons made from aerospace quality aluminum billet. Approx 824 grams / piston & pin - 4.350" Bore (We also offer flat top pistons for higher compression ratios.)
Total Seal brand 1/16-1/16-3/16 Plasma Moly ring set
Clevite "V" series 1/2 groove Main Bearings
Clevite "V" series Rod Bearings
Internal Street Balancing
Street Balancing:
This type of balance can also be called "Box" or "Crate Engine" balancing. The weights used are those printed on the box by the manufacturer of each part. With todays C.N.C. parts, they are closer than some race parts were 10 years ago and closer than most of todays stock parts. The crankshaft is spun up and corrected to within 1/4" oz. (the same tolerance as a Race balance). For engines that spend the majority of their time below 6,000RPM this type of balance will satisfy the need of a cost conscious customer. Most of your mass market stroker kits are balanced this way.

My Carillo "RBRE"
Carillo Rods
Carillo Crank
diamond pistons
All bearings
COMPLETE Balanced $3185

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 08:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight?

I feel your wrong for the following reasons,the crank stamped bobweight is heavier than the actual bobweight,so the crank needed to be lightened anyway,the hole was much smaller to begin with and the metal was peeled of surrounding the hole with a machinist pick,It
could have easily enlarged itself under use(it was very thin)and found its way to the oil system and the all inclusive"most all internal balancing is done at the crank counter weights.So unless there is a new method of balancing That I'am not aware off,I have to kindly disagree.If I'am wrong I apologise.

The person who designed that crankshaft didn't know what your finished bobweight would be, the stamped number is just the maximum that could be used without having to add weight (heavy metal) to the counterweights. The counterweights are designed around this target bobweight. If your actual bobweight matched the stamped number you got very, very lucky. The rod throws are part of the equation just as much as the piston and rods are, you just don't consider this when final balancing is done, the bobweight is added to the rod throws when balancing. This is where my point comes in: if the rod throw lightening holes had been drilled all the way through you'd have to drill more material from the counterweights to balance it for your actual bobweight. Conversely, if your actual bobweight came in higher than the stamped number you might be able to remove material from those unfinished rod throw lightening holes instead of using Mallory Metal on the counterweights. Or, I could be hallucinating, again.

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 08:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Varification-2

how come the counterweight has so many balance holes? is it to save money over using a lathe to get it closer before balancing?

The crank was factory balanced for 2300 gram bobweight,actual bobweight was much lighter.

We used a 440 callies crank in a 400 block and had to make 3 trips from balancer to
lathe but ended up with only one tiny balancing hole. Had to cut the counterwghts about .250. Of course that would be cost
prohibative if you had to pay for the extra trips I suppose.

Yes cutting CW's down in a lathe or in a grinder is cost & time prohibitive...... Does it do a "nicer job" than just machining holes (usually done right in the balancer, if you've got a "good" one) absolutely.... but is is a necessity? Absolutely not.

As an example.... if I was doing your Callies crank, I would have charged you a flat $175 balancing fee to internally balance it, that would have included drilling any potential lightning holes.... If you wanted .250" ground off all CW's & then drilled with small holes.... would be minimum $200-$250 to take .250" off CW's so cost more than doubled. I know alot of crank shops like to talk about "hole-less balancing" but it gets pricey....

Now in instances where we have needed to do like a string of 4 or 5 1" lightning holes all to a fairly deep depth, to do a balance job.... then yes we will cut CW's to reduce drilling amt. (so we're not swiss cheesing the crank) & charge accordingly. That's just a deal where if you have a bobweight, that much lighter than target bob on the CW's you have to expect to pay to play sort of deal....Usually only happens on aluminum rod stuff.....

But a pair of 1" holes, an inch or 1.5" deep is not a big deal.

Posted By: turbobitt

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 08:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob

When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.

Source's nitride extends to .014.Remember we are trying to keep it a budget build not see how bad we can make it or how much money we can spend unnessarrly.That would not be fair to anyone.

why would you believe that they can hold .014 depth on the nitiding when they have obvious issues with the other machined critical features of the crank. I'm not an engine machinest but definetly an end user that has bought budget stuff in the past. I would be very unconfortable with the fact that someone is shaving the bearings with a knife or grinding the crank to bring it within tolerance or pressing it back into shape because of run-out. Again, not a bashing fest but a comment from an end user looking at "budget" parts. It seems like these extra labor cost get lost/ignored in the final price of the build or when someone claims it was done on a budget. If you would report on the cost TO THE CUSTOMER and not your cost to fix, then that would interesting.
This is not a malicious stab so please don't take offense.
Allan

Posted By: dakotahotrodder

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 08:26 PM

Quote:

Current Stroker kits:

Mancini Racing Stroker Kit (Common Eagle Kit)
$1,750.00
Balanced

.Product Description
Kit includes: Diamond dished lightweight forged pistons wit .990 pin and Diamond moly piston ring set. Eagle 4340 forged crank with 2.200" rod journal. Eagle ESP H-Beam rods. Clevite Tri metal rod and main bearing set.

440 Source
$1897 Balanced
In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.

K1 Stroker Kit (muscle motors)
$1999
Balanced
440/500: 4.15 stroke x 6.76 rod

This is the kit that stared it all. Forged dished pistons are required for pump gas compression. It is available in .030, .040 & .055 bores with quite a few different compression ratios available. This kit will require minor bore notching so that the rod bolts do not interfere with the block. You will also need to clearance the boss that the oil pick up tube screws into. Kit comes competition balanced with Plasma moly rings and chamfered bearings. A tried and true combination for the ages.

My Carillo "RBRE"
Carillo Rods
Carillo Crank
diamond pistons
All bearings
COMPLETE Balanced $3185

Just to keep things in correct context, the Muscle Motors web site says the following: "All of our Muscle Motors kits feature our private label crankshafts. As stated in the opening statement about stroker kits: we strongly recommend micro polishing of any (except K1 and Compstar) Asian crank. As an option any of our Big Block kits can be upgraded to a K1 crankshaft for an additional charge. The K1 cranks do not require micro polishing to remove taper." I do not see where the kits are advertised as "K1".

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 08:44 PM

go down lower on the page. you copied that from the $1399 kit.... Call muscle motors and ask them what the upgraded $1999 kit is

I believe best machine sells K1 stroker kits as well...

Posted By: dakotahotrodder
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 09:18 PM

Well, technically it is copied from "above" the first kit, which is the $1399 kit. Take a look and judge for yourself.
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/stroker-category/440-stroker-kit-article

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 09:26 PM

Just call muscle motors or best machine. hopefully they will chime in here..... I guess there king krate 600" uses that as well

I updated the post and put hughes kit in there BTW.... just show options is all......

now back to our regularly scheduled program....

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 09:42 PM

When you say "Correct" the crank, are your intentions to re-grind ? If so, will you re-nitride to bring it back to the hardness level that it was intended to be ?
AG.

Source's nitride extends to .014.Remember we are trying to keep it a budget build not see how bad we can make it or how much money we can spend unnessarrly.That would not be fair to anyone.

why would you believe that they can hold .014 depth on the nitiding when they have obvious issues with the other machined critical features of the crank. I'm not an engine machinest but definetly an end user that has bought budget stuff in the past. I would be very unconfortable with the fact that someone is shaving the bearings with a knife or grinding the crank to bring it within tolerance or pressing it back into shape because of run-out. Again, not a bashing fest but a comment from an end user looking at "budget" parts. It seems like these extra labor cost get lost/ignored in the final price of the build or when someone claims it was done on a budget. If you would report on the cost TO THE CUSTOMER and not your cost to fix, then that would interesting.
This is not a malicious stab so please don't take offense.
Allan

Not taking any offence Allen,but don't understand your point that your trying to make.If you pay for a budget assembly why try and make a Source crank into a Bryant.Many engine builders choose to cut a bearing to correct a radius interference.The cost of regrinding a crank opposed to an hour or so of shop labor negates any savings.You may not like cutting the bearing but it is and has been an acceptable practice,not VooDoo.As far nitride,it can be done in a few different methods and the depth can vary from manufacture to manufacture and process to process.The most common is a salt bath nitride process which Chrysler used for years and usually only penetrated aprox .003,the gas ion process allows for further penatration,and a induction furnace/gas ion process can penatrate to greater depths .025 to .035 or greater.The only limit is the density of the material,less dense material will allow a white blushing of the finished product.The runout on number one was minimal and acceptable but to the high side of what I perferr.I talked to the crank grinder today and he said live with it,no one in this part of the country can get it any closer,it was at .0014+- a tenthousandth(problem solve).As far as believing anyone,who can answer that,I guess if it was Bryant's claim it would have to be the gospel.Somewhere some engineers figure with a particular process for a particular amont of time will penetrate a particular density of material at a particular rate and depth.I'am in no position to question them.What happens to the Nitride when you micropolish a crank?Nothing,polishing only cleans the surface of pertruding materials and oxidations and does not remove material.If your removing material your machining and cutting,anyway this is far from the original intent of the original post and I still don't understand your position or intent,sorry,don't mean to offend you,you may have better knowledge on the subject.

Posted By: Stanton
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/04/10 09:49 PM

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

This is exactly my thoughts.

My guess is they leave some weight in them because its easier to take weight out than to add weight on in the balancing process.

The holes aren't all that big either - maybe 1/2" or 5/8" - unlike a stock crank that has huge holes.

Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 12:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Some are missing the point. We are NOT bashing 440 Source, only pointing out what was found and what it will take to fix it. You buy a low cost kit, you expect it not to be perfect. The question is, does the low cost kit, save you enough, to pay to repair the issues and still save money over the better kit. As far as whether these issues have been corrected in newer kits, is an impossible question to answer. You would just have to check it and see. My opinion, not likely. Lets face facts guys, these are cheap kits, yes prices were raised recently, but do you think that was done because they are spending more time with machining to make tolerances better, or because the raw forging price went up. I am betting on the steel went up myself. Regardless, the fact remains, given the history, you MUST check these parts. You may get one that needs little work, you may get one that needs a lot. But as stated, they are NOT "ready to run kits". Personally, I "check" every part I get, be it a cheaper part, or a billet crank from Bryant. The difference is, the better parts are always "right". I like to save money as much as anybody, but if a couple hundred extra upfront, saves me time and money in the long run, that is a no brainer........Another option, is to buy the low cost kit from BG, Muscle Motors, or some such other place. Yes, it will cost you more than direct from Source, but the issues will be corrected. But again, you will have to weigh this cost vs the better kit up front. Lets just see what the final costs are going to be when BG gets done. I feel sure he will give a fair account of the results.

Monte

Monte I respect you and most of your posts but when you say the better parts are always right you are wrong. My 2200.00 dollar 4.500 stroke callias crank was already cut .010 right out of the box. If it wasn't such a bother I would have reboxed it and told them to shove it up their azz.

I am not here to argue, all I can say, is I have NEVER gotten a "good" crank, be it a Callies, Bryant, Windberg, or even the K-1 Callies, that needed work and I have built a couple motors over the years. Am I saying every crank they ever made was perfect, of course not, am I saying 95% are good, yeah, I would take that bet. Will you say the same for the "cheap" cranks, not likely. As far as yours being cut .010, sure won't argue, you got it, but I have a hard time believing they just sent you a .010 under crank without your knowledge and then you just kept it Ok. But we are getting totally off topic and I don't want to wreck BGs thread. All I am saying, is the cheap kit does not seem to be the big bargain, once everything is looked at. The prices are posted on the thread. If the K-1 kit with Compstar rods is a few hundred more, I will go that way every time, because from MY experience, I would much rather have a crank and rods, final machined here in the states by Callies, because I know that it is likely going to be dead on the money.

Monte

Posted By: cheapstreetdustr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 01:34 AM

*MOVED*

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5711796

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 01/05/10 02:11 AM

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 01/05/10 02:36 AM

Posted By: bigblock4x4
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 02:48 AM

I by any means am a machinist,I am considering one of the 440 source kits because they seem too be reasonably priced,I am wanting too build a 470 inch motor,nothing too fancy just needs too be reliable,turn key get in it and drive it ***** to the walls kind of driving.somewhere in the nighborhood of around 550-600 or so HP??would it be reasonable too asume that in stock form that the 440 source parts be capable of that without too much reworking?

Posted By: Teamx
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 02:54 AM

For those looking at the overall cost of a stroker kit, keep in mind the potential extra block clearancing requiered with the old school 4.15s x 6.76 rod combinations. The last two 4.25s x 7.100 BBC storker kits went in the block with no clearancing at all!

Posted By: @#$%&*!
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 03:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

This is exactly my thoughts.

My guess is they leave some weight in them because its easier to take weight out than to add weight on in the balancing process.

The holes aren't all that big either - maybe 1/2" or 5/8" - unlike a stock crank that has huge holes.

Thanks for backing me up. Though I didn't say it explicitly, what I was thinking was that, during the mfg. process they have all these cranks that are the same. Then, they want to set the up for different target max. bobweights. Say you want a max. 2300 gm BW, you drill the holes to one depth. The you want some for a 2500 gm bobweight so you drill them a little deeper. Then maybe you want some for a 2100 gm BW so you drill them a little shallower. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the amount of material drilled out could be used to tune the crank for a particular intended max BW. I wanna say that the fact that the holes aren't drilled all the way through is a non-issue. The finish on the holes is another thing. I wouldn't want any burrs falling off.

Nobody has said I'm hallucinating, yet. Well, not today anyway....

Posted By: rook440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 03:58 AM

Thanks Bob for this artical ,,,frankly 2 years ago a bought a 440 source kit 4.25 stroke ,Jim VanZee built the engine for me had a local high performance machine shop check everything out and they were happy with everything ..he then assembled the engine with a hughes girdle and factory ported heads stage VI heads and it made 650 hp and 650 ft lbs of torque ,we pulled the filter after the breakin and the 5 dyno pulls and there were no abnormal filings ,this was indeed a cheap build ,but one I could have never done with out the inexpensive kit,yes you should check everything ,and maybe your taking a chance but if you are at this point you have a lot of company ,you see these kits everywhere ..thanks again for taking the time to write such an informative artical ,I will be looking foreward to reading the next posts on the rods and the ballancing .... Rook

Posted By: Stanton
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 04:24 AM

It's all fine and dandy to do price comparisons here but you have to compare apples to apples and you're going to have a tough time of that for one simple reason ... nobody offers the selection of stroker kits that 440Source does. Sure, you can look at Hughes, Muscle Motors, Mancini, etc. but they only offer a few choices - all around 500 cubes. If I'd wanted a 500 cube stroker with 12.5:1 CR I likely would have given one of those guys a little more consideration, but for the 528 with 10.5:1 the choice was pretty simple. Furthermore,

Posted By: thecarfarmer
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 04:38 AM

Quote:

Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.

I'd have to go look in my records, but there was significant labor in getting my parts all squared away.

Not huge, mind you, but it was a significant amount compared to the $15XX.00 kit that I had believed to be 'ready-to-run'.

That's why I think threads like this are great - the next guy will have a better idea what he's getting into.

Quote:

Quote:

......................My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings.

(snip)

-Bill

I used one of those cranks too, and the indexing was off .035", so I sent it back (since it couldn't be offset ground and fixed) and got another.......Did you have your indexing checked?
(snip)

Yeah, the crank was checked in a crank grinder; the only real issues were the mains being tapered and the large fillets on the rods.

I elected to not grind the rods, and just cut the bearings... $$$... I'd already bought the bearings, and couldn't see a significant advantage to the quality of the engine to buy more bearings and grind the rod journals too.

Although my laziness might have won out if I hadn't already bought the bearings.

Curious to see what BG finds with the rods. I picked a bunch of chips out of the area where the hollow dowel goes into the rod on some rods, and filed some substantial burrs off the rods at the parting line caused by the honing. My machinist also opened up the wristpin bushings a little bit (a couple tenth-thousandths IIRC).

-Bill

Posted By: 493_DART
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 05:41 AM

Quote:

Thanks Bob for this artical ,,,frankly 2 years ago a bought a 440 source kit 4.25 stroke ,Jim VanZee built the engine for me had a local high performance machine shop check everything out and they were happy with everything ..he then assembled the engine with a hughes girdle and factory ported heads stage VI heads and it made 650 hp and 650 ft lbs of torque ,we pulled the filter after the breakin and the 5 dyno pulls and there were no abnormal filings ,this was indeed a cheap build ,but one I could have never done with out the inexpensive kit,yes you should check everything ,and maybe your taking a chance but if you are at this point you have a lot of company ,you see these kits everywhere ..thanks again for taking the time to write such an informative artical ,I will be looking foreward to reading the next posts on the rods and the ballancing .... Rook

i know Jim V!
where are ya from and do you race Eddyville?

Posted By: MuscleMike
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 12:28 PM

Thank you for the correction. Our site says clearly what cranks are available, how we prepare our kits, pricing, etc. K1's are an upgrade.

I am staying out of this thread as it is not for promotion but explaining the intricacies of kits and I thank BG racing for explaining the in's and outs of mail order parts.

Mike @MM

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 03:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Has anyone considered that the "unfinished" rod journal lightening hole might be done that way to set the max. designed bobweight? If they'd punched that hole all the way through then they'd have to go back and take material off the counterweights to compensate. Am I wrong here? Let me know.
Cory

This is exactly my thoughts.

My guess is they leave some weight in them because its easier to take weight out than to add weight on in the balancing process.

The holes aren't all that big either - maybe 1/2" or 5/8" - unlike a stock crank that has huge holes.

Thanks for backing me up. Though I didn't say it explicitly, what I was thinking was that, during the mfg. process they have all these cranks that are the same. Then, they want to set the up for different target max. bobweights. Say you want a max. 2300 gm BW, you drill the holes to one depth. The you want some for a 2500 gm bobweight so you drill them a little deeper. Then maybe you want some for a 2100 gm BW so you drill them a little shallower. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the amount of material drilled out could be used to tune the crank for a particular intended max BW. I wanna say that the fact that the holes aren't drilled all the way through is a non-issue. The finish on the holes is another thing. I wouldn't want any burrs falling off.

Nobody has said I'm hallucinating, yet. Well, not today anyway....

Sorry guys,call it hallucinating,wishful thinking or plain assumptions on your part.To clarify "to assume" You make an azz of you and me.That one rod journal throw was not drilled all the way for balancing purposes,it was a result of an unfinished process.In over forty years of engine building on my part and exposure to many of the greats in the industry along the way in most every type of racing that involves internal combustion engines I would characterize that as a minor fkup.Not a big issue but since the assembly was balance a costly fkup.The crank was factory balanced at 2300 grams,the actual bobweight was 2169 grams.To further define my point I will spin the crank as is,record the over or under or "perfect"balance,then I will address the rod journal and flange and spin it again.Just the fact that the bobweight dictates the crank needed lightened shoots your assumption out of the water.I sunk your battleship!!!No offence,just BGR humor

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 07:38 PM

thx for clearing that up musclemike.... also i talked to someone today who sells K1 kits and they are about $2400...

so for the record here on the "discount kits"

Mancini Racing Stroker Kit (Common Eagle Kit)
$1,750
Balanced

440 Source
$1897
Balanced

Muscle Motors Kit
$1999
Balanced

Hughes Engines
$1896
Balanced

K1 Kits
$2400
Balanced

My Carillo "RBRE" Stroker Kit(for comparison)
COMPLETE Price
Balanced $3185

Im sure depending on your salesman and time of year prices may vary a few bucks... As well Im sure on the "discount" made kits "final" machined pricing on the kit will vary as well....

Im not sure what the total machining cost will be one the build here but the K1 stuff seems like a real good quality in the middle kit! and others on here have stated its a quality kit

Posted By: curt jr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:03 PM

Hi guys,Curt Jr.here While tinkering in the shop I think I have solved the great crank drill hole debate.All the holes were drilled parallel to the centerline of the crank with the exception of the one not completely drilled.Had been drilled completely through it would have come out in the center main thrust journal.The hole was not parallel to the centerline of the crank as all the others.See attached photos.

Posted By: curt jr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:07 PM

#2

Posted By: Hemiroid
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:07 PM

Quote:

Hi guys,Curt Jr.here While tinkering in the shop I think I have solved the great crank drill hole debate.All the holes were drilled parallel to the centerline of the crank with the exception of the one not completely drilled.Had been drilled completely through it would have come out in the center main thrust journal.The hole was not parallel to the centerline of the crank as all the others.See attached photos.

Posted By: curt jr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:07 PM

#3

Posted By: curt jr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:08 PM

#4

Posted By: curt jr
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 08:12 PM

This is typical of all the other holes drilled in the rod journals that are drilled parallel.

Posted By: Stanton
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 09:48 PM

So what diameter would you say those holes are?

Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 09:58 PM

Quote:

Muscle Motors dont have their own kit, they use 440 SOURCE and put it in their own packaging

Wrong...
Not true at all. I have a Muscle Motors crank, that I just installed in the new Hemi engine/block. It was looked at from flange to snout, checked in every way possible. It only needed final balanced and polished. Was it perfect? No, it was tolerable and withing specs according to my machinist, and was given a good bill of health. He knows, and expects it to live a nice life in a 800-900hp Hemi.
I installed the crank and main caps one by one checking crankshaft end play. It was right were I wanted it to be .005, it never varied .001 from the first center thrust main cap to the last one installed. Fact is it was a bargain. The 440 Source crank I used two years ago was the same way fit and finish.

Only problem so far was with the American finished World Block, the mains were not acceptable and needed honed and bored to correct.

FYI
The last Eagle crank I used had a bunch of taper and was way large on the big end spec, so it need turned on the rods to correct. Back then the Eagle Crank as about the only choice for a budget crank...It was $750-$800 for the crankshaft..Add the cost of needing turned, and final balanced I had over $1000 in the crank alone.
That crank took more abuse than anyone could ever dish out to a engine, and kept right on working.

Some times these budget cranks, are a bargain, some times they are not..Its pretty much Hit or Miss with these.

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 10:21 PM

Quote:

#4

to much saki when those were drilled

Posted By: VernMotor
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 10:30 PM

So is that crank alright to use ?? I think that needs to go back where it came from ! That not good.I would think it will be weak right there ?

Posted By: moper
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 10:36 PM

Quote:

All the holes were drilled parallel to the centerline of the crank with the exception of the one not completely drilled.Had been drilled completely through it would have come out in the center main thrust journal.The hole was not parallel to the centerline of the crank as all the others.

I'd say that was an expensive f up in terms of fixing it. He did stop it before it came out tho. Saved Brandon some $$ anyway...lol I'm sure that much material there will have made a difference in the balance.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 10:39 PM

Quote:

So is that crank alright to use ?? I think that needs to go back where it came from ! That not good.I would think it will be weak right there ?

Our big concern is the strength at the main thrust journal compromised,that large bore of that hole removed a lot of the attaching material.

Posted By: cbarracuda
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/05/10 10:54 PM

Race cranks have full radius jounals, obviously with full radius cranks, edge radius clearance has to be given to the bearings next to these full radius corners.
Billet cranks are strong and very expensive. Most aftermarket crank grinders offer upgrades that lighten these billet cranks. Supplemental machininig by a machine shop is often necessary to lighten them making prices sky high for most enthusiastics.
I been using a 440 source cranks in different applications for my customers and it has given very good results. Of course, no matter how much you pay for a crank it has more clearance and measurements to check than any other single part.

Posted By: SSAAHemiFan
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 12:23 AM

I'm far from a pro.... But I would be sending that crank back.

Being drilled on a angle so close to the journal..

I would be VERY afraid of any weakening in that area.

Much respect BG.. .

Great post, and thank you for taking the time to do this.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 01:25 AM

Quote:

I'm far from a pro.... But I would be sending that crank back.

Being drilled on a angle so close to the journal..

I would be VERY afraid of any weakening in that area.

Much respect BG.. .

Great post, and thank you for taking the time to do this.

I got it from a guy that originally bought it.IT was a great deal,so I thought.As Monte and many other have stated you get what you pay for.How the Manufacture could ever ship a product in this condition is beyond me.That the supplier missed it is one thing,the guy who bought it is another,the guy that preped the block machine work and started to assemble is still another mystery and it wasn't till it came to BGR after repeated questions and a request for help did we start to completely evaluate the kit for everyone on Moparts did this all come to light.As we seen from many responces that the adverage guy would have assume that it was in race ready or usable condition,we know what "assume does"Thankfully it stopped the assumptions at "me" and no one got hurt and were made an "azz of".Thanks Curt Jr for tinkering in the shop,he was told to take the crank to the crankshop where more good money would have been wasted.Sorry for peeing in everyone cereal and sinking their battleships,but"if you want the truth,you better be able to handle the truth".My next series will be the rods and pistons lets hope we can do better

Posted By: dartman366
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 01:50 AM

Was it purposly drilled at a angle to clear the drill past rear counter weight,and was it purposly stopped at the point it was as not to drill into the thrust face? kind'a hard to tell from the pic's

Posted By: sleepychallenger
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 01:52 AM

so are all of their cranks like this or just this one. would we be safe to buy one of these kits and send the crank back if it looks like that?

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:01 AM

Quote:

so are all of their cranks like this or just this one. would we be safe to buy one of these kits and send the crank back if it looks like that?

One of the points of this thread was to figure out actual "ready to install" price.... I dont think they are returnable and each kit may have a different issue...

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:01 AM

Quote:

Was it purposly drilled at a angle to clear the drill past rear counter weight,and was it purposly stopped at the point it was as not to drill into the thrust face? kind'a hard to tell from the pic's

I think this needs more scrutiny before coming to a conclusion.

I am looking at my 440Source 4.250" crank (RB) and both the 5-6 and 7-8 rod journals have the lightening hole at an angle. This appears to be done to allow the drill bit/tooling to clear the crank flange. Mine doesn't appear to be at as much angle as BG's, but that could be a photo illusion or the angle the bar is held at (bar smaller than hole). It appears the 5-6 journal is drilled larger (0.79" dia) and not as deep as the others which are all the way through and about 0.71" dia. The larger bit/tooling for the 5-6 requires it to be at a slightly larger angle than 7-8 and the amount of metal removed may be the same. This does not apply to the front journals since there is no crank flange on the front (damper snout).

Posted By: cbarracuda
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm far from a pro.... But I would be sending that crank back.

Being drilled on a angle so close to the journal..

I would be VERY afraid of any weakening in that area.

Much respect BG.. .

Great post, and thank you for taking the time to do this.

I got it from a guy that originally bought it.IT was a great deal,so I thought.As Monte and many other have stated you get what you pay for.How the Manufacture could ever ship a product in this condition is beyond me.That the supplier missed it is one thing,the guy who bought it is another,the guy that preped the block machine work and started to assemble is still another mystery and it wasn't till it came to BGR after repeated questions and a request for help did we start to completely evaluate the kit for everyone on Moparts did this all come to light.As we seen from many responces that the adverage guy would have assume that it was in race ready or usable condition,we know what "assume does"Thankfully it stopped the assumptions at "me" and no one got hurt and were made an "azz of".Thanks Curt Jr for tinkering in the shop,he was told to take the crank to the crankshop where more good money would have been wasted.Sorry for peeing in everyone cereal and sinking their battleships,but"if you want the truth,you better be able to handle the truth".My next series will be the rods and pistons lets hope we can do better

Hey I like to waste money, how much for the crank?

Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:06 AM

i had some reputable people look at my 3.75 stroke 440 source crank and it passed tech. sure there was some taper and other stuff but it was useable.now to test it with some more hp.

Posted By: dartman366
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Was it purposly drilled at a angle to clear the drill past rear counter weight,and was it purposly stopped at the point it was as not to drill into the thrust face? kind'a hard to tell from the pic's

I think this needs more scrutiny before coming to a conclusion.

I am looking at my 440Source 4.250" crank (RB) and both the 5-6 and 7-8 rod journals have the lightening hole at an angle. This appears to be done to allow the drill bit/tooling to clear the crank flange. Mine doesn't appear to be at as much angle as BG's, but that could be a photo illusion or the angle the bar is held at (bar smaller than hole). It appears the 5-6 journal is drilled larger (0.79" dia) and not as deep as the others which are all the way through and about 0.71" dia. The larger bit/tooling for the 5-6 requires it to be at a slightly larger angle than 7-8 and the amount of metal removed may be the same. This does not apply to the front journals since there is no crank flange on the front (damper snout).

best I can tell from the pic , the protractor appears to be at a 5* angle.

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'm far from a pro.... But I would be sending that crank back.

Being drilled on a angle so close to the journal..

I would be VERY afraid of any weakening in that area.

Much respect BG.. .

Great post, and thank you for taking the time to do this.

I got it from a guy that originally bought it.IT was a great deal,so I thought.As Monte and many other have stated you get what you pay for.How the Manufacture could ever ship a product in this condition is beyond me.That the supplier missed it is one thing,the guy who bought it is another,the guy that preped the block machine work and started to assemble is still another mystery and it wasn't till it came to BGR after repeated questions and a request for help did we start to completely evaluate the kit for everyone on Moparts did this all come to light.As we seen from many responces that the adverage guy would have assume that it was in race ready or usable condition,we know what "assume does"Thankfully it stopped the assumptions at "me" and no one got hurt and were made an "azz of".Thanks Curt Jr for tinkering in the shop,he was told to take the crank to the crankshop where more good money would have been wasted.Sorry for peeing in everyone cereal and sinking their battleships,but"if you want the truth,you better be able to handle the truth".My next series will be the rods and pistons lets hope we can do better

Hey I like to waste money, how much for the crank?

sell it to the man Bob, he likes what he sees

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:20 AM

I can see it coming now! My kit was good / my kit was bad...

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:32 AM

Quote:

Flange face and radius,rough and unequal.

What is interesting, is that BG's crank flange has a scallop cut which appears about where the drill bit to cut the journal lightening hole would be; mine doesn't have that scallop cut. And that cut might allow that hole to be drilled straight?

Posted By: @#$%&*!
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:36 AM

Quote:

I think this needs more scrutiny before coming to a conclusion.

I am looking at my 440Source 4.250" crank (RB) and both the 5-6 and 7-8 rod journals have the lightening hole at an angle.

Very interesting, it seems it was intentional. You can put me in the group who didin't ASSUME it was defective without a clue what was going on.

Quote:

i had some reputable people look at my 3.75 stroke 440 source crank and it passed tech.

For what it's worth, I had my 440 Source 400/500 kit shipped to a very picky machinist. He scoffed at the fact that I paid extra for a balance and I had to hear about the other 'balanced' kits he'd worked on that were terrible. I told him to check everything out and rebalance if necessary. When I picked it up he didn't have one complaint and I paid a very small fee for them to check the balance. He did substitute the Clevite rod bearings for ACL versions though.

Posted By: Sport440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:36 AM

Ive seen factory cranks that werent drilled all the way through or perfectly centered. What was left though was paper thin pretty much.

I just ripped it out and finished it with a dremmel. As I didnt want that stuff ripping itself of and Finding its way to the oil system, as Bob eluded to.

Now on the steep angle/ dont recall Dont know if that would be a problem or not.

Of the Two 440 Source kits I had one was Bad and one wazs Good just kidding thats for 540

mike

Posted By: rook440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 03:20 AM

I'M from Creston ,and race there once in a while ,hopefully a bunch this year >>>>.

Posted By: snook
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 12:18 PM

Quote:

I think this needs more scrutiny before coming to a conclusion.

I'm with you on this one Jim. In fact, one can argue that an angle bore would actually be beneficial, it could minimize flexing, especially in crank center throws at speed. My two cents.

Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 01:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What is interesting, is that BG's crank flange has a scallop cut which appears about where the drill bit to cut the journal lightening hole would be; mine doesn't have that scallop cut. And that cut might allow that hole to be drilled straight?

Look at the placement of that hole, it's not even in the center of the rod throw looking at this picture .

Very informative thread BG ...

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Flange face and radius,rough and unequal.

What is interesting, is that BG's crank flange has a scallop cut which appears about where the drill bit to cut the journal lightening hole would be; mine doesn't have that scallop cut. And that cut might allow that hole to be drilled straight?

I'am in agreement that the journal hole may have been angle cut because of counter weight clearence issues,but fact that it was not finished(regardless) of where it exited there will be a true unbalance in the middle of the crank unless the material left was compensated in balance at the crank counter weights.The question is how much weight was left?If removed this would be a moot point. the crank balance would never show this unbalance area as it is balanced to the front and back axis.I will go out on a limb to say that this was not done,if it was its an expensive process and would be reflected in the crank cost.

Posted By: DCI
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:40 PM

Anybody got a 440source crank bought in the last year to compare pictures with???? It would be interesting to see if the new stuff is still being done the same way.

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:48 PM

Quote:

Look at the placement of that hole, it's not even in the center of the rod throw looking at this picture .

Very informative thread BG ...

I don't know for sure, but remember there are oil holes going from the rod journal surface to the main bearings. So, placement of the lightening hole may not be able to be "centered". Depends on lightening hole dia and location of the oil holes.

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:51 PM

Quote:

I am looking at my 440Source 4.250" crank (RB) and ...
It appears the 5-6 journal is drilled larger (0.79" dia) and not as deep as the others which are all the way through and about 0.71" dia. The larger bit/tooling for the 5-6 requires it to be at a slightly larger angle than 7-8 and the amount of metal removed may be the same.

BG, what are the dia of the lightening holes on your low deck (B) crank for comparison?

I am wondering if the B and RB are drilled differently, or it could be a production change (different years, mine is 2007).

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 02:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Look at the placement of that hole, it's not even in the center of the rod throw looking at this picture .

Very informative thread BG ...

I don't know for sure, but remember there are oil holes going from the rod journal surface to the main bearings. So, placement of the lightening hole may not be able to be "centered". Depends on lightening hole dia and location of the oil holes.

Good point Jim,I'am going to look at the oil hole passages tonight.

Posted By: Oyvind Mopar
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 04:40 PM

For me it looks as the factory knows a lot about how to do a crank correctly, and many people here have learnt a lot about it on this thread.
Most other aftermarket cranks I have worked with are made the same way. Probably they are from the same factory?
Thanks!

Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 04:45 PM

Not that this "means" anything, but I just went out in the shop and looked at various cranks I have for some BBM and BBC engine projects I am working on. The cranks range from a Bryant Billet, a Lunati Pro-Series, an Eagle and 3 Callies. NOT ONE, has a lightening hole in a rod journal drilled at an angle, nor do the dozen or so factory cranks I have sitting around. IMHO, I would NOT run that crank in an engine with decent power. You have effectively weakened the throw into the cheek and that would be a likely place for a break. This is where cast cranks always break and while this is not a cast crank, the crank is most certainly weakened that area. As to whether this is corrected on later cranks....who knows, crap shoot at best. Again, based on what has been seen, YOU MUST CHECK these parts, old or new.

Monte

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 04:46 PM

FWIW, here is a pic to show where the oil passage is in relation to the rod journal lightening hole. I put a dowl in the oil hole to help judge where it goes. Not a big offset on this crank.

Posted By: Stanton
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 05:12 PM

I didn't take pics 'cause my camera is a POS but here's the sccop on my 440Source crank

1) 4.375 stroker
2) no scallop on the back flange - probably not necessary for drilling with the longer throws.
3) flange is nicely finished with consistent thickness
4) front and rear throws are drilled right through with 5/8" bit. Drilled straight.
5) middle two throws are partially drilled - about 1-1/2" deep, 5/8" bit, AT AN ANGLE. Had they drilled right through then these two holes would have come out in the thrust area as well.

Why are they at an angle? My guess is the bit isn't long enough to come in from either end without the chuck hitting the crank somewhere. That may have something to do with the torsional load on the bit over that length. Most factory cranks I've seen have much larger holes so the longer bit would tolerate the torsional loads. Or maybe the manufacturer is just too cheap to buy a longer bit.

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 07:24 PM

Quote:

NOT ONE, has a lightening hole in a rod journal drilled at an angle, nor do the dozen or so factory cranks I have sitting around.

I don't know if BG's crank is defective or a strange design, but FWIW.

I just looked at one of my old factory 440 steel cranks. The two middle rod journals did not have any lightening hole at all. And the front and rear journal holes were not drilled all the way through, not even close. I recall seeing some that had 3 journals drilled, 2, etc. Lots of different designs.

The angle is odd. IMO a very small angle is nothing, but a large angle into the wrong part of the journal is another story. I can't tell from where I sit...

I think I am ready to move past the crank and hear about the rest of the parts BG has.

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 07:28 PM

Quote:

4) front and rear throws are drilled right through with 5/8" bit. Drilled straight.
5) middle two throws are partially drilled - about 1-1/2" deep, 5/8" bit, AT AN ANGLE.

Interesting that the lightening holes in your 440Source crank are a different diameter than mine. Lots of different designs... (4.250 vs 4.375?) It will be interesting to hear what BG's 4.250 hole diameters are.

Posted By: Mick70RR
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 07:51 PM

I've just had a look through some pictures I took of my engine while I was building it and all four rod journals are drilled all the way through. It's a 440 Source 4.25" crank and I bought it in August 2007.

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 08:44 PM

here's the whole deal in a nutshell
the cheap kits will run you close to 2k by the time everything is said and done.

you can get a better kit K1 for $2400
so thats around $400 more and you get a top of the line kit for a little over 3K.

it's a no brainer to me

Posted By: Stanton
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 08:56 PM

Looking through Andy's book there is a shot of a 440Source crank and you can clearly at least one of the center throws is drilled right through and obiously fairly straight because its nowhere close to the thrust surface.

Posted By: thecarfarmer
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/06/10 09:41 PM

So, have the rods been checked yet?

Now, for the 'internet Special Olympian' drama...

Pretty good going; four pages and very little need for a raincoat (protection from p*ssing contest). All with surprisingly little Barbara Streisand involved.

-Bill

Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 04:50 PM

this has been interesting. it seems there have been numerous "opinions" dispalyed other than the facts posted by BG and Curt Jr.
so, what if anything have we learned so far?

Posted By: turbobitt
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 05:03 PM

Quote:

this has been interesting. it seems there have been numerous "opinions" dispalyed other than the facts posted by BG and Curt Jr.
so, what if anything have we learned so far?

I think we learned that there is no such thing as a "Buget" crank. After all these tweeks and fixes, you can buy a beter quality crank. To stay with the "Theme" of facts, I own a 440 souce, Eagle and K1 crank. The facts are that the K1 crank needed nothing , no corrections, no bearing scraping, no deburing, no fixing of flanges, and no regrind. I have read that to keep it on a buget, the corrects were going to be made. But at what hourly rate ?? I bet it's about $75 + per hour to scrap bearings, inspect hardware. Where is the savings ?? Lets see all the facts and time laid out in labor so far. If it's BG's choice to throw this in at no charge then fine, let us know how many additional hours it took to make it work so that we can guestimate what the majority of machine shops would charge to repair these issues.
Allan G.

Posted By: abodiesonly1
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 05:42 PM

Quote:

this has been interesting. it seems there have been numerous "opinions" dispalyed other than the facts posted by BG and Curt Jr.
so, what if anything have we learned so far?

That people are going to continue to buy what they want.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 06:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

this has been interesting. it seems there have been numerous "opinions" dispalyed other than the facts posted by BG and Curt Jr.
so, what if anything have we learned so far?

I think we learned that there is no such thing as a "Buget" crank. After all these tweeks and fixes, you can buy a beter quality crank. To stay with the "Theme" of facts, I own a 440 souce, Eagle and K1 crank. The facts are that the K1 crank needed nothing , no corrections, no bearing scraping, no deburing, no fixing of flanges, and no regrind. I have read that to keep it on a buget, the corrects were going to be made. But at what hourly rate ?? I bet it's about $75 + per hour to scrap bearings, inspect hardware. Where is the savings ?? Lets see all the facts and time laid out in labor so far. If it's BG's choice to throw this in at no charge then fine, let us know how many additional hours it took to make it work so that we can guestimate what the majority of machine shops would charge to repair these issues.
Allan G.

We will have a total estimate at the end of the build.But as far as fitting bearing,minor dressinging of the crank(deburring,etc) setting clearences,weighing and calculating is not an extra cost but all part of the estimate that we would quote for the build.Adittional charges would only be for major corrections above and beyond anything not on the original estimate and would be agreed to with the customer before the extra cost would be applied to the original estimate.Most people that buy these kits usually are hobbyist that assemble their own engines,usually if your dealing with a professional shop to machine and assemble your engine you are working on a different level as far as componant selection.I don't think anyone that's buying a Source or other budget kit is looking to Barton,Monte,Darren,Banning or others for a build.The only reason BGR got involved is many of our friends that are selfhelp hobbyist racers came to us for assistance and this project they were a little over their head so we took on the project.We figured we would share what we learned with the many racers that were looking to these kits for a more economocal way to start or keep racing."What did we learn" was asked.I think a lot for just starting with the crank we have learned ,what issues to look for,how to correct them,and understand the basic parameters of what is acceptable and what isn't.More importantly not to assume anything,and if you have questions have a place to bring them for help,right here on Moparts.

Posted By: turbobitt
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 07:00 PM

Thanks BG, I understand what your trying to do. If your a hobbiest or not, these cost will catch up with you anyway. Just want to be clear that it will add more cost to the final price. Most of us "Hobbiest" still need to have these corections made by someone and they will most likely not be as generous as you.
Allan G.

Posted By: gsmopar
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 07:04 PM

Hobbiest here! Where do you find the other "kits?" I googled K1 and found their web site, but it's far from user friendly. I prefer to buy American even if it costs a little more.

Thanks!

Posted By: mickm
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 07:14 PM

Quote:

..."What did we learn" was asked.I think a lot for just starting with the crank we have learned ,what issues to look for,how to correct them,and understand the basic parameters of what is acceptable and what isn't.More importantly not to assume anything,and if you have questions have a place to bring them for help,right here on Moparts.

also important not to forget is this is one of the early kits, and things have changed since then. i won't dare to say "improved", i'll keep that to myself

time and time again, everyone says that you must inspect everything, no matter what you pay for it or who it comes from. there are stories here of perfect Source cranks, and stories of bad Callies cranks, and everything in between.

what i have learned is exactly what bob has stated above. if/when i go to build an engine, i'll make my decisions more on how much HP i'm looking for, and what kind of money i can put into it. i know i won't make the decision by brand name.

Posted By: moderncylinder
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 07:33 PM

it seems to me this post is all about showing errors of defective 440 source parts,, not about an actual build.

crank "pin" lightening holes drilled at an angle is not a big deal at all,, i have callies, scat, and other cranks here that have holes at angles to lighten, aslong as you maintain .150 or so thickness,, it will be fine, ive been down to .100 on th eedge where the lighten hole started in on a angle in a scat super stock hemi crank that i make 900hp with and run to 9000rpm with a 2525 bobweight,, no cracking or breaking of the crank,,, not even a clue of it..

bob george said something about the "center of the crank" being out of balance because the way the center two pin holes were drilled,, thats funny,, does it have center counterweights?? no it doesnt along with 90% of cranks out there,, therefore they cannot be balanced in the center. this is just another thing brought up that doesnt mean anything.

everyone makes cranks with 1/8" radius in mains and rods,, i would fight with this on callies cranks, i could never get bearings that would work out of a box,, cause they didnt exist,, so i would scrape the mains,, rods we would just narrow if needed.,, everyone makes cranks that way,, everyone has to fit their bearings,, it wont blow the motor up if you dont,, but its not that best. all bearings are made to clear a 3/32" radius,, 1/32 less than 1/8",,, if you made the main width narrow enough on the crank then you have issues,, callies does,, scat just makes it,, and eagles are fine,, usually...

it was obvious that the crank was etched at 2300gram bobweight, then rebalanced, but it was made to sound like there was something terribly wrong with the bobweight being lower than that,, how should that have been handled??? spin the crank and see if its balanced to see if it is 2300 or the actual weight for your parts,, then say something,, just gives bad press for no reason other than a guy getting jumpy and making something out of nothing.

jeff

Posted By: 440Jim
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 07:53 PM

Quote:

crank "pin" lightening holes drilled at an angle is not a big deal at all,, i have callies, scat, and other cranks here that have holes at angles to lighten, aslong as you maintain .150 or so thickness,, it will be fine, ive been down to .100 on th eedge where the lighten hole started in on a angle in a scat super stock hemi crank that i make 900hp with and run to 9000rpm with a 2525 bobweight,, no cracking or breaking of the crank,,, not even a clue of it..
jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for the information.

Posted By: Joshs68
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 08:27 PM

Quote:

Hobbyist here! Where do you find the other "kits?" I googled K1 and found their web site, but it's far from user friendly. I prefer to buy American even if it costs a little more.

Thanks!

I am by no means an engine builder, saving a few bucks is great but having to redo something because I didnt know what I am doing is not in the budget.
This is what I did and I thought it was super easy.

I got together with a shop I trusted, I talked to the owner and told him what I wanted. 470 pump gas ect.
I let him order the parts and assemble the short block. He used parts from companies he deals with on a regular basis, end result Is I am very happy with no worries.

Posted By: 440sourcedotcom
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 10:03 PM

Quote:

it seems to me this post is all about showing errors of defective 440 source parts,, not about an actual build.

crank "pin" lightening holes drilled at an angle is not a big deal at all,, i have callies, scat, and other cranks here that have holes at angles to lighten, aslong as you maintain .150 or so thickness,, it will be fine, ive been down to .100 on th eedge where the lighten hole started in on a angle in a scat super stock hemi crank that i make 900hp with and run to 9000rpm with a 2525 bobweight,, no cracking or breaking of the crank,,, not even a clue of it..

bob george said something about the "center of the crank" being out of balance because the way the center two pin holes were drilled,, thats funny,, does it have center counterweights?? no it doesnt along with 90% of cranks out there,, therefore they cannot be balanced in the center. this is just another thing brought up that doesnt mean anything.

everyone makes cranks with 1/8" radius in mains and rods,, i would fight with this on callies cranks, i could never get bearings that would work out of a box,, cause they didnt exist,, so i would scrape the mains,, rods we would just narrow if needed.,, everyone makes cranks that way,, everyone has to fit their bearings,, it wont blow the motor up if you dont,, but its not that best. all bearings are made to clear a 3/32" radius,, 1/32 less than 1/8",,, if you made the main width narrow enough on the crank then you have issues,, callies does,, scat just makes it,, and eagles are fine,, usually...

it was obvious that the crank was etched at 2300gram bobweight, then rebalanced, but it was made to sound like there was something terribly wrong with the bobweight being lower than that,, how should that have been handled??? spin the crank and see if its balanced to see if it is 2300 or the actual weight for your parts,, then say something,, just gives bad press for no reason other than a guy getting jumpy and making something out of nothing.

jeff

Thanks Jeff for the first grounded and accurate post I've seen here. I'd like to clarify a few things. First, I can appreciate and respect what BG is trying to do here, that is examine the parts and post his findings. However, somewhere during the process (perhaps due to a lack of familiarity with what is being examined?) things went awry. Please allow me to respond to some of the things that have been mentioned.

If my responses don't agree with BG's in some areas, please don't take as a personal attack against him, it's simply my point of view on the matter.

The first thing in question here is how the crank is drilled through the rod pins (lightening holes). I believe this is done at an angle on some forgings to ensure that the lightening hole does not intersect the rod to main oiling passages. Several people responded to this by saying they would send the crank back, and BG stated he'd be afraid of it weakening the crank, and even went so far as to say "you get what you pay for.How the Manufacture could ever ship a product in this condition is beyond me." Another well known "expert" on this site says "IMHO, I would NOT run that crank in an engine with decent power. You have effectively weakened the throw into the cheek and that would be a likely place for a break."

With respect, this can only be due to the fact that these "experts" don't understand what they are looking at, and how the stresses are distributed through that forging under load.

The truth is, these cranks have been manufactured this way since day one. Over the last 7 years, we've sold thousands upon thousands of them all over the world. The majority of them go into bracket motors running 9's or 10's, and many are in cars in the 7 and 8 second range. I even know of a dozen or so running in the 6's for the last couple years. Hot rod magazine recently did a twin turbo motor with our crank in it that made 1434 horsepower, and it's still running great to this day. How many hundreds and hundreds of people on this very site are making serious power with our cranks (often for many years now) with great success?

To take an item like this that clearly does not fail during it's intended use, (in fact has proven itself in literally thousands of successful cases over a period of time spanning most of a decade) and then take one look at it, and proclaim you've decided it's defective and will most likely fail during use... well that just doesn't add up.

BG states in one post that "if we want the truth then we better be able to handle the truth." Well, to me, the "truth" is the undeniable RESULTS thousands of racers are getting with these same cranks.

So, I respectfully ask what BG's response would be to the proven track record of this crank he's so quick to label as a complete waste of money?

This reminds me of a similar post a couple months ago about our water pump housing. Some self proclaimed moparts "expert" analysed our water pump housing and found the ports to be smaller than he would have liked. Right away, he posted how our housing would without a doubt cause the engine to overheat because of the smaller passages. Well, I personally run one of those housings on my own car, and I'd never had any kind of overheating problem, so I thought it was a bit strange. So, I looked up our sales data, and it turns out we've sold many thousands of those same housings over the last 3 years and we've not heard of any overheating problems caused by them. Even if 1% of the people who bought those housings had an overheating problem caused by them, that would still be hundreds of calls we would have received about the problem, so we definitely would have known about it.

Just another instance of how an "expert" can take one look at a perfect good and proven part, and then post on here how it can't possibly work.

The other thing I wanted to address is the comment about "The better" (meaning name brand high dollar) "parts are always right."

Anyone who tells you a part is "ALWAYS" going to be perfect because it costs a certain amount of money or has a certain companies name written on the side of the box, is showing you the ignorance of their inexperience. We sell a lot of product from the top, most well established name brands in the industry, including Edelbrock, Comp Cams, ARP, Clevite, etc, etc. I can tell you from personal experience that ALL of these companies have had a product at one time or another that has been defective and that we needed to exchange.

Engine builders who have real experience, (and I'm talking about builders who have built thousands of engines over decades) will tell you that anyone who says anything in the aftermarket parts world is "always perfect" has their head up their you know what. Making a comment like that simply reveals that the person is either (A) ignorant, or (B) has very little real world experience.

As I said earlier, and I can understand and respect what is trying to be done here. But if you examine any part, from any manufacturer, with a super fine tooth comb, and your sole intention is to try to find a defect (or even something you don't like,) believe me, sooner or later your going to find something. I don't care what the part is, where it's made or what company makes it.

Thanks for allowing me to provide my input, thanks BG for your effort, and I'll look forward to the sections on the rods and pistons.

Posted By: moderncylinder
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 10:38 PM

a comment on the water pump housing,,,,, ive had obviously diferent looking cylinders in my super stock stuff due to heat or lack of,,, i started reducing the water port sizes and it started to equalize the way a piston looked,, chamber looked,, before you could point out the hot ones and the cold ones due to water flow,, im down to a .625 inlet into the block, and a .500 out of the head or vice versa if i reverse cool,,, didnt make it one degree hotter after the run

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:02 PM

please explain this from your site? im confused...

We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.

On the waterpump housing deal isnt there bolt hole mis-alignment?

and jeff at MCH does all of your cnc head porting right

please enlighten so I know the facts about this stuff

Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:10 PM

Quote:

please explain this from your site? im confused...

We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.

On the waterpump housing deal isnt there bolt hole mis-alignment?

and jeff at MCH does all of your cnc head porting right

please enlighten so I know the facts about this stuff

i think that's what they're doing.

Posted By: HEMI472
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:15 PM

i dont want to hear about the water pumps. i bought a brain new one put it on the motor and when i put water in it it ran straight through and out the water pump never even started the motor.

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:35 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with how they hold up or how long they last. it's about what you have to do to them to get to that point. and how much additional money you have to spend. if it cost as much as a better kit it defeats the purpose of buying one. if you sold so many why can't you have the known problems corrected?

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:36 PM

The opinions that have be expressed here by me and others are just that our opinions an expression on how we feel and they were quite varied.That we questioned certain things about the crank and people responded with their thoughts.Many of us had different takes on cause and effect,you will never get answers to questions if you don't ask the questions first.I don't think I was bashing 440 Source by any means.I.am not a crank expert by anymeans and don't think two many of us here are either.But I'am smart enough that If I have questions I know I can find the experts that can answer our questions.Brandon,you could have jumped in on the first post and explained your position and thoughts and we could have all gained from it,but no,you had to wait on some "expert" opened the door to get your foot in.Now any and all meaningful discussion and opinions are worthless since you and Jeff have decided to circle the wagons,that's two wagons and there is still a thousand of indians,does the name "Custer" ring a bell.I tried to show the good things as well as bad and was hoping that this thread didn't succumb to personal attacks.I think I was fair and let everyone express their thoughts.That that crank looked ugly at best raised concerns,that we continue to evaluate the build and will see the end performance of the parts will be the true test.I think everyone responded in a manner to keep the thread on track and respectfull,you and Jeff are the the ones that seem to want to derail it instead of contributing to it.So here's my final take on the crank after talking to Alan Krem, a respected Design engineer with his degree from the Univ.OF Pittsburgh,who does crank design and also does R&D for Oliver rods and many others.I have known worked with him on projects for over 30 years and he knows more than you and Jeff will ever know about cranks.I respect his opinion,his qualifications,and his professional mannerisms more than what I have seen from you two "experts" Is the crank ugly? Yes. Is it usable? Yes.Will it hold up? Time will tell. To everyone on Moparts,I apologise for having ruffeled any feathers. So now we see the connection

Posted By: moper
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:40 PM

I'd say lets try to keep on topic...

Posted By: 440sourcedotcom
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:42 PM

Quote:

please explain this from your site? im confused...

We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice.

On the waterpump housing deal isnt there bolt hole mis-alignment?

and jeff at MCH does all of your cnc head porting right

please enlighten so I know the facts about this stuff

I think what you quoted from our site explains it pretty good, but since you are "confused" I'll explain it in more detail. Most other shops that charge $150 for a balance job never even open the rods and pistons. They simply look at the weight written on the side of the box, and factor in that "estimated" weight when they drill the crank. The main downside to doing this is that you don't really know what you're working with. If the weight printed on the side of a box of pistons says 800 grams (for example) and 7 of the pistons actually do weigh 800 grams, but one weighs 825, you'd never know it.

We physically remove each and every rod and piston, ring and bearing, inspect them and weigh them individually (for the rods we weigh the small end and the big end separately) to make sure they are in spec. Only once they have been verified is the crank actually drilled.

And yes, Jeff does our CNC work. He also does Mancini, and probably 95% of the people on this board.

I don't appreciate any accusations that Jeff and I are somehow "in cahoots" or something. I'm sure he doesn't either. I won't dignify that sort of thing by arguing about it. It only took one post of mine for this thread to degenerate. In case anyone wonders why we rarely post on here anymore, this is exactly why.

And as far as any problems with our water pumps and/or housings, everything we sell is covered under full warranty, which is clearly explained on our site. If you had a problem with any of our parts during the warranty period, you could have called us and gotten a replacement.

We are done posting on this thread before it really gets

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:42 PM

Quote:

I'd say lets try to keep on topic...

and continue with the build regardless

Posted By: cbarracuda
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:43 PM

I am also an engine builder and I have been living out of this for the last 35 years

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/07/10 11:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd say lets try to keep on topic...

and continue with the build regardless

We will continue the build,see Curt's 440 Source part 2.We will feed our faith and starve our doubts,for only the strong will survive.Weaken and you'll fall by the wayside.

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:31 AM

lock the thread quik! were on part 2

Posted By: cudadoug
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:33 AM

I gotta say, I KNEW the thread would come to this. BG trying to do the right thing, the anti-source guys bashing Brandon's stuff...KI, SACT, CALLIES are the best, blah blah blah. It's been said here hundreds of times: Don't run ANY aftermarket part without it being checked. If you can't/don't have the knowledge to do it yourself, find a shop you TRUST to check it out. If you are nieve enough to think that ANY stroker kit can just be dropped in, you're in the wrong hobby.

Brandon, don't be so defensive you also KNEW where this was going. If you have that many satisfied customers, this thread shouldn't matter. Besides, I know plenty who are disatisfied with (pick one, or more) Eagle, SCAT, K1, Moroso, Edelbrock, Weiand, MSD, Crane, etc...at one time or another.

Let's see what BG comes up with in the end. And let's see what the additional costs are, shall we? Actually this thread should have been locked with only BG's input.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to buy a Source kit...then DON'T. This is America buy what you want, but please have some respect for Brandon for bringing this OPTION (look it up in the dictionary) to our hobby. And most of all, show the respect to BG for this "evaluation".

We now return you the chaos already in progress!

Posted By: TS3303
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:38 AM

no comment I have no real experience.

Quote:

Engine builders who have real experience, (and I'm talking about builders who have built thousands of engines over decades)

thousands would be 2000+
that would be an engine a day for 5 1/2 years
or one per week for 38 1/2 years.

Posted By: RonP
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:42 AM

I agree as I knew this is where it would head. I hope you continue BG and I am going to come check it out next weekend.

Everyone has opinions. I have heard so much bad on here about eagle cranks and statements that if your crank didn't need work then you need another machinist. well, my machinist at the time said it didn't so it must be bad, but its going on its 4th year runing mid-high 9's and the bearings were good enough to reuse when we tore it down at Bg's last year.

actually I just wanted to say i posted on here before it got locked.

Posted By: biginchmotor
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:03 AM

To Bob, if a customer brought you this crankshaft or any brand crankshaft and had you correct all the issues you have found what would be the dollar amount you would charge for the repairs. How many hours/ labor rate? Just Curious. $500? $800?. Thanks John.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:05 AM

Quote:

I agree as I knew this is where it would head. I hope you continue BG and I am going to come check it out next weekend.

Everyone has opinions. I have heard so much bad on here about eagle cranks and statements that if your crank didn't need work then you need another machinist. well, my machinist at the time said it didn't so it must be bad, but its going on its 4th year runing mid-high 9's and the bearings were good enough to reuse when we tore it down at Bg's last year.

actually I just wanted to say i posted on here before it got locked. [/quot

Ron,I'am glad you got your post in also,I'am sure you have your opinion,wanna share? It's ashame that a few have to take things and add their spin to it for personal agendas.You as well as many others know I don't do this for the money or any personnal agenda,but for the lifetime of love for the sport and to help others.Moparts has given me an interest and motivation to continue and a place to come to with so many racers that are willing to share their knowledge,experience and respect for each other.We may not all agree or think the same but at least we should respect each other.To be condacending and disrespectfull only shows ones character or lack of.Call me an azzhole in jest and I'll laugh with you,call me an azzhole and mean it and I'll meet the challenge.SemperFi If we all think alike,then no one is thinking.Score one for the indians.

Posted By: QWK_ENUF
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:07 AM

the people that don't like the source still don't and the ones that do still do.thats what i learned

i am going on my 3rd season with my source 511 and no problems so far

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 01/08/10 01:09 AM

Posted By: mickm
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:17 AM

Quote:

Actually this thread should have been locked with only BG's input.

i agree. this thread should be locked to all but bob to post his findings. a second thread can be started for those who want to ask questions and debate things.

that would make this much, much easier, as many of us are only interested in the facts that bob finds.

bob can then chime in on the other thread if he wants to, or people can email him questions, and he can answer them in this thread.

but i would really, REALLY like to be able to just read what bob posts about the build, without having to wade through 15 posts for every 1 post from him about the build itself.

anyone else agree, or should i just drop it?

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:20 AM

Quote:

hey Bob....azzhole?... ... [/quote

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:20 AM

Quote:

i am going on my 3rd season with my source 511 and no problems so far

did yours need any extra machining? and if so what was the cost is what people really wanna know....

Semper FI Krunch 85lbs

Posted By: Quicktree
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually this thread should have been locked with only BG's input.

i agree. this thread should be locked to all but bob to post his findings. a second thread can be started for those who want to ask questions and debate things.

that would make this much, much easier, as many of us are only interested in the facts that bob finds.

bob can then chime in on the other thread if he wants to, or people can email him questions, and he can answer them in this thread.

but i would really, REALLY like to be able to just read what bob posts about the build, without having to wade through 15 posts for every 1 post from him about the build itself.

anyone else agree, or should i just drop it?

what good would it do? a thousand more threads would just pop up let it run it's corse

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:23 AM

Quote:

Sorry for some of the fuzzy pictures.We will start with the crank and the next series will be the rods and pistons.The crank miked quite well with clearences on the highside with a noticable taper on most journals but within spec.The radius's were quite large and interfered on all mains,most on front and rear both.The crank runout was remarkable good till we got to the number one main and snout which exceeded our acceptable runout.We checked it both in the block and on the lathe.The condition of the unfinished rod journal and the rear flange were small concerns and can be corrected as well as the radius's.The crank was balanced to 2300 grams as seen on the stamping.Our rotating assembly bobweight totaled 2169 grams.Until we spin the crank we will not know if the correction was made or not.We will be correcting the crank and will give any further finds and soon give our assesment of the rest of the assembly.Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and this was an early kit.Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.I,am communicating with Brandon and may use more of his products in the future if requested buy budget minded racers.If we can keep this post on a informational and learning experience I will continue,if it turns to bashing I will stop.It is not my intent to disrespect anyone or any products,just to be helpful.With the information provided in this and other builds we all can understand the different levels and cost to make the best decisions for our projects.We have recorded all the measurements and will share any and all info,any questions can be answered in PMs,we will be try and specific and general on the site.Respectfully Bob

Posted By: abodiesonly1
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:32 AM

I agree...Lets move on to #2.

It doesnt seem to be getting as many hits.

Posted By: TS3303
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:37 AM

Quote:

lock the thread quik! were on part 2

no need to lock it, just moderate it professionally. Questions should be able to be asked to BG, Curt jr, or Brandon specific to the kit being assessed. Remove any posts bringing in other kits or personal opinions.

Edit: Usually these threads get locked or deleted and don't make it to the archive and alot of good info is lost forever.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually this thread should have been locked with only BG's input.

i agree. this thread should be locked to all but bob to post his findings. a second thread can be started for those who want to ask questions and debate things.

that would make this much, much easier, as many of us are only interested in the facts that bob finds.

bob can then chime in on the other thread if he wants to, or people can email him questions, and he can answer them in this thread.

but i would really, REALLY like to be able to just read what bob posts about the build, without having to wade through 15 posts for every 1 post from him about the build itself.

anyone else agree, or should i just drop it?

As you can see in my original post,I said I would respond to PMs.It would have been great to just follow it in sequence.The problem some opinions and conclusions were drawn before I could get facts gathered from those like Mr Krem about the issues.Like I said I may not have all the answers but certainly know where to get them.I had no problem with people posting and sharing opinions right or wrong,as a matter of fact it got kind light entertainment at times sinking a battle ship or two. .

Lets keep it civil

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 *DELETED* - 01/08/10 01:43 AM

Post deleted by Eric

Posted By: abodiesonly1
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:49 AM

Well this just turned laughable.

Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually this thread should have been locked with only BG's input.

i agree. this thread should be locked to all but bob to post his findings. a second thread can be started for those who want to ask questions and debate things.

that would make this much, much easier, as many of us are only interested in the facts that bob finds.

bob can then chime in on the other thread if he wants to, or people can email him questions, and he can answer them in this thread.

but i would really, REALLY like to be able to just read what bob posts about the build, without having to wade through 15 posts for every 1 post from him about the build itself.

anyone else agree, or should i just drop it?

As you can see in my original post,I said I would respond to PMs.It would have been great to just follow it in sequence.The problem some opinions and conclusions were drawn before I could get facts gathered from those like Mr Krem about the issues.Like I said I may not have all the answers but certainly know where to get them.I had no problem with people posting and sharing opinions right or wrong,as a matter of fact it got kind light entertainment at times sinking a battle ship or two. .Then Branden and Jeff decided to ride down into Little Bighorn,(go figure)Now they wonder where all those fkn indians came from. Any damage from this point will be selfinflicted.

No need to lock anything ....If it wasn't for opinions....there would be no need for any forums period....I say just keep it on track and weed out the off-topic posts...last I knew this was Tom's site....

By the way....I think this is one of the most interesting topics in some time, let the members take from it what they may or may not...again just my

Rickster

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 01/08/10 02:06 AM

Posted By: Sport440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:11 AM

Quote:

Carry on...

mike

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:14 AM

Quote:

To Bob, if a customer brought you this crankshaft or any brand crankshaft and had you correct all the issues you have found what would be the dollar amount you would charge for the repairs. How many hours/ labor rate? Just Curious. $500? $800?. Thanks John. [/quot

Bringing the crank(only) to BGR.We would first,inspect the crank for flaws, mike the crank,record the measurments,set it machinist V-blocks or lathe and check for runout and straight dimensions,then report to the customer our findings.This process would be done with the customer present and if the customer was a racer it would be done at N/C as a courtesy.Anyone who has been to my shop will varaify this to be fact.Many racers right here on Moparts will tell you of our generosity.If we were building the short block,there would still be no extra charge as this would be included in the build estimate.I know that's not what you wanted to here so here's what it would typically cost at our associates shop.For That particular crank(Source) that I have would have cost $50 to mike and check the crank,$75 to deburr,dress,micro polish and clean,and another $150 to spin to correct(if necessarry)the balance if the bobweight was provided.So add a minimum of $275 to the price of your kit for the crank work. or buy it put it in and take your chances,buyers risk or choise.

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:21 AM

anything from overseas probably have flaws not just engine stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-Dodge-Challenge...=item2304bd1ef0

Posted By: cbarracuda
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:44 AM

Quote:

anything from overseas probably have flaws not just engine stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-Dodge-Challenge...=item2304bd1ef0

Oh yeah? Wake up, what about Formula 1 900 HP only 3 liters N.A.

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 01/08/10 02:49 AM

Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 01/08/10 03:00 AM

Posted By: turbobitt
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 03:57 AM

As stated in my earlier post, I would like to know the final cost of fixing and adjusting to make it all work. This is the only way to make a clear judgment on weather or not its a true budget build.
FYI - If anybody searches my username here or on Dodgecharger.com , you will see that I was the first one to step up to the plate and challenge the waterpump housing/overheating theory. I own this housing and pump and currently have it on my 572 Hemi. I also have other "Source" parts to. So please don't get the impression that I'm a Source basher but I have enough experience with these parts to ask the appropriate questions. I would be the first to admit to reseaching and buying budget parts from 440 Source or others. This is not a debate on strength or even quality but the bottom line dollar amount to correct the parts to the engine builders satisfaction.
Allan G.

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 03:59 AM

Quote:

As stated in my earlier post, I would like to know the final cost of fixing and adjusting to make it all work. This is the only way to make a clear judgment on weather or not its a true budget build.

X2

with all the thousands of happy source customers you think one would post additional machining cost to help a mopar brother have a good "idea" to make their decision on whether to purchase the kit or not

Posted By: moderncylinder
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 04:59 AM

bob the 275 price listed and the description of labor operations would need to be done to any and every crank that has gone into every motor ive built in my life,, which ill guess is 100,, im a head porter for the most part

i dont see any special needed operations because its a 440 source crank

what was the main runout? stock allowance is .0020 which is crazy,,, ive run .0010 without issue

the reason im posting here is i see a guy, brandon, trying to create a sucessfull business selling and providing low cost parts for the mopar racing community, and there are misleading statements about his parts that they are different or bad compared to others,,, which they are not...

Posted By: 493_DART
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 05:08 AM

Im not a major race builder or machinist , but heres my experience :

My Source bottom end was bought in 04/05.

My crank flange looks great

The shop that checked the crank said it was well within acceptable specs

I did not have to shave any bearings

They had to lightly hone/ fit for the pins (this is posted in advance-right on the site and instructions) .

Ive never had a problem after 3 or 4 years running it to 6200-6400 rpm.

Its apart now and i dont see any major issues.

Oh.... and one of my journals is drilled at an angle.

Im with moderncylinder on this one ...

Posted By: mickm
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 05:54 AM

Quote:

what good would it do? a thousand more threads would just pop up let it run it's corse

yes, exactly, that's the point.

if you want to follow the build, stay here. if you want to follow people's discussion, go to one of the other threads!

Posted By: Sport440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 06:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

what good would it do? a thousand more threads would just pop up let it run it's corse

yes, exactly, that's the point.

if you want to follow the build, stay here. if you want to follow people's discussion, go to one of the other threads!

The next stage of the build is now being documented in the part 2 stage thread now.

Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 11:02 AM

Quote:

BG The crank pin lightening holes being drilled at an angle? Are you sayin this will cause the crank to fail. Jeff says he has seen cranks with the holes drilled at the same angles handle 900hp and 9000rpm are you looking for more than that out of this motor?

Jeff a ss/ah engine builder says as long as there is .150 thickness left that it's alright. Where does the crank that you have fall into this catagory?

Is there any evidence to show that if the hole was drilled straight as opposed to an angle that it would handle an x amount more horsepower and if so how much power and rpm would that be.

I have a saying about engineers. If it wasn't for engineers we would all still! be able to work on our own cars!

Those were our first observations,since all the others were drilled straight and complete,we questioned why it was unfinished.Curt's observations raised concerns as to the angle and where the hole would exit and the unfinished loose material.My concern was did it compromise the strength.We stop at that point,I consulted with Mr Krem and he advised me that as long as enough material was left at the area that we should have no problem,and yes there are many angle drilled cranks.Most are only partially drilled and the ones that are drilled are finished no matter where they exit, So that we will clean the unfinished hole,determine the amont left and base our decision from that point.As I stated before an Mr. Krem agreed that a heavy area can exist in the middle of the crank and not be seen at the front and back axis.The flange is a different thickness ranging from(guestimate).350 widining as you follow the radius growing to over .500 and was ground quite a bit at the .500 area.To answer Jeffs question,the outround on #1 journal was .0015+ I like no more than .001 also.We will finish the hole,make the flange more concentric and rebalance.There is no way to determine what Hp level it will with stand.Mr Krem says "run it and you will find out"

Posted By: moparniac
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 11:33 AM

Here is my conlcusion on this whole deal! 493dart and others have had good success and "thousands" other and many have complained maybe "thousands" as well! cost at this point I dont care anymore. What I see for anyone here its always been a gamble either way! I am not gonna let my dad buy from a source kit! however good look to all who run them as I would never want a fail for a mopar brother....

Posted By: EasyG
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:14 PM

Quote:

The K1 kits have peeked my interest...and if I run into the cash I was thinking in that direction. Monte...have these been close to a OOTB install in your opinion?...or have they needed similar work as what BG has found?....

If you do this, you will have to change your long standing signiture....

still planning on a 500" Best Machine bullet

Posted By: DaveDudek
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 12:23 PM

I have ran a 440source crank in my car for 3 years with no problems, 7500rpm shifts and nearly 8000 through the traps. 13 1/2 to 1 compression and it seems to be holding up just fine..

Posted By: slippery440
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 01:37 PM

Quote:

Here is my conlcusion on this whole deal! 493dart and others have had good success and "thousands" other and many have complained maybe "thousands" as well! cost at this point I dont care anymore. What I see for anyone here its always been a gamble either way! I am not gonna let my dad buy from a source kit! however good look to all who run them as I would never want a fail for a mopar brother....

I will bet that will break their hearts!!!!

Posted By: 47hudson
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:08 PM

Everytime there is a 440source post you have people come out of the wood work to bash them and complain 90% have never seen a 440source product much less used one. I have been running a 440source kit since 05 I have run as fast as 9.96 in a 3400lb car and hit 7000rpm every weekend for 4 years with no issues from any of Brandons parts. I can't say that about my Indy heads, rockers, dynamic converter, engine block or my MSD ignition but those are other stories. I also have the aluminum water pump with no issues. My crank rod pistons etc. have never been touched, I had my machinist check everything when he ballaced the assembly and thats it. If you want the real story on 440source parts listen to all the people who run his stuff and post not the peanut gallery. Before Brandon showed up stroker kits were twice what they are now it is directly because of him we have all these other companys now offering "budget stroker kits" and more choices on where to spend our $$$$.

Posted By: firefighter3931
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:16 PM

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This reminds me of a similar post a couple months ago about our water pump housing. Some self proclaimed moparts "expert" analysed our water pump housing and found the ports to be smaller than he would have liked. Right away, he posted how our housing would without a doubt cause the engine to overheat because of the smaller passages. Well, I personally run one of those housings on my own car, and I'd never had any kind of overheating problem, so I thought it was a bit strange. So, I looked up our sales data, and it turns out we've sold many thousands of those same housings over the last 3 years and we've not heard of any overheating problems caused by them. Even if 1% of the people who bought those housings had an overheating problem caused by them, that would still be hundreds of calls we would have received about the problem, so we definitely would have known about it.

Just another instance of how an "expert" can take one look at a perfect good and proven part, and then post on here how it can't possibly work.

That would be me Mr 440 Source....no expert, just a hobbyist builder who's been at it for 30 years. I can tell you that without a doubt that waterpump & housing was THE problem. I didn't find it initially....a REAL engine builder did. You might have heard of him....Fast68Plymouth aka Dwayne Porter.

Don't want to rehash old news but in a nutshell my cruise engine temps dropped 25* when i re-installed the factory housing & Milodon pump. My Buddy member Blown68 reinstalled his factory housing & cast iron pump and noticed a dramatic drop in temps as well. Draw your own conclusions

We won't talk about the 440 Source timing cover that leaked like a sieve. Turns out it wasn't flat and was leaking around the dowl holes.

Ron

Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 - 01/08/10 02:24 PM

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no comment I have no real experience.

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Engine builders who have real experience, (and I'm talking about builders who have built thousands of engines over decades)

thousands would be 2000+
that would be an engine a day for 5 1/2 years
or one per week for 38 1/2 years.

exactly , typical marketing 101 condescending BS from the spin miester ...

440 Source kit update part 1