Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
#569539
01/04/10 01:07 AM
01/04/10 01:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813 Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
some after market cranks put knurls in the crank, but I can't figure out why. .......The knurl is there if you're going to use a rope seal, and who does that??? (that shows a company that copies something and doesn't even know why it's there) My Source crank was knurled there, so I had it ground off while being indexed......
I believe the knurl is there to direct the oil away from the seal. Many stock cranks have this from the factory, my BB Buick did.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: brads70]
#569540
01/04/10 02:36 AM
01/04/10 02:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: '72CudaRacer]
#569541
01/04/10 02:53 AM
01/04/10 02:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer. I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit. Thanks, Brian
This, as Bob pointed out, is a good question.....but....engines from the factory were made to drive you up and down the road, not to be flogged all the time. How many times have you seen somebody take a stock motor, add a cam, some headers and some other "go fast" parts, only to have it expire in shortorder. This is where the term "blueprinting" came to exist. You went to the junkyard, rescued yourself an engine and corrected all the little things the factory missed, you "blueprinted" it, made it right, it made power and lived. These days people buy parts, with the impression they are right, but many times they are not. The phrase, "you get what you pay for" may be more true in engine parts than anything else. In my mind, I can't possibly expect a $500, 4340 crank to be right. Because I know what it takes to get it right and you can't buy the material and do it right, for that amount of money and make a profit.
Monte
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#569542
01/04/10 06:28 AM
01/04/10 06:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295 U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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Quote:
Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.
Mopar Performance
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: moparniac]
#569543
01/04/10 06:53 AM
01/04/10 06:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.
Well said,this is the point that I was trying to make over a year ago,what can be expected with the lower cost kits and is there a cost saving once you get the corrections done.And yes,you can't compare stock production engines to be competitive.They need to be corrected and fine tuned for even a stock class.There are a lot of good info being shared,take advantage of it.Rods and pistons next.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569544
01/04/10 08:18 AM
01/04/10 08:18 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872 Charlotte NC
DCI
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
Well said! Mainly im curious as well as to what the "actual" cost will be! However Im sure that would vary also ! but atleats that way people dont get "sticker shock" when they go pick up the discount stroker kit from their machinist.
Well said,this is the point that I was trying to make over a year ago,what can be expected with the lower cost kits and is there a cost saving once you get the corrections done.And yes,you can't compare stock production engines to be competitive.They need to be corrected and fine tuned for even a stock class.There are a lot of good info being shared,take advantage of it.Rods and pistons next.
Very good info here and I appreciate it.
BG - Any plans to buy a new(current) kit and evaluate it to see if any of the "issues" you find are fixed? or do this with some of the other kits out there?
"Turbo will be easiest, and at the HP level will also be easiest on parts. Spend the money to do it right, and you can build a 500 HP street motor that will live a long and happy life, and probably with a very basic short block."
Those words must have left a bad taste in his mouth!
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: DCI]
#569546
01/04/10 09:30 AM
01/04/10 09:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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For those curious about whether issues were adderssed on later kits... I've used or looked at these parts since I think about 5 (maybe 6?) years ago. The last one I used was 3 years ago, a 4.25 stroke RB pkg. As of that time no issues Bob's noted had been addressed since the first few kits a couple years prior to that. Also in regard to the bobweight stamped ont he crank... I believ that's just what the counterweights are desinged to weigh so you can tell if it needs mallory or not during the planning phase. It's not what the bobweight should be. From what I understand of Source's balancing I am curious to see if this kit really is balanced and ready to go.
The two most important details of this post as it evolves is to watch and see what needs to be checked (as opposed to plastigaging or using emery to clearance piston pins), and how much it will cost to correct the issues that need to be corrected (as opposed to some issues that are acceptable "per spec"). I do believe the kits are a good value for most buyers even after spending a little extra to get things acceptable. Not "Right." or "Perfect.", but acceptable. However "ready to run" is simply not the case.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: moper]
#569547
01/04/10 09:41 AM
01/04/10 09:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
For those curious about whether issues were adderssed on later kits... I've used or looked at these parts since I think about 5 (maybe 6?) years ago. The last one I used was 3 years ago, a 4.25 stroke RB pkg. As of that time no issues Bob's noted had been addressed since the first few kits a couple years prior to that. Also in regard to the bobweight stamped ont he crank... I believ that's just what the counterweights are desinged to weigh so you can tell if it needs mallory or not during the planning phase. It's not what the bobweight should be. From what I understand of Source's balancing I am curious to see if this kit really is balanced and ready to go.
The two most important details of this post as it evolves is to watch and see what needs to be checked (as opposed to plastigaging or using emery to clearance piston pins), and how much it will cost to correct the issues that need to be corrected (as opposed to some issues that are acceptable "per spec"). I do believe the kits are a good value for most buyers even after spending a little extra to get things acceptable. Not "Right." or "Perfect.", but acceptable. However "ready to run" is simply not the case.
As stated,we will assume that the stampings was for refrence,we will spin it and check it with the actual bobweight.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#569549
01/04/10 10:04 AM
01/04/10 10:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142 Central New York
slippery440
Crybaby440
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Crybaby440
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
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Quote:
Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
Hit the nail on the head.Sometime soon I will want to buy a kit and yes I am a cheap minded person but also I know what the bottom line is. So this build by BG is great.Only thing would be even better would be a side by side build with a higher priced "american made" kit. That would be intresting.
If the MODS did their job I would not be hitting the notify MOD button. LOL
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: slippery440]
#569550
01/04/10 10:23 AM
01/04/10 10:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Not bashing Source, or anyone else here, but the problem with these "cheap" kits, is that they are marketed as "ready to assemble" and "just as good" as some of the other higher priced kits. This is where I have a problem. The problems that BG is finding are serious issues and if a novice just slaps it together, there will be problems with the motor. Sure, you can take it to a reputable shop and have it checked, but if they fix it, and a good shop will, it will cost you money. Where as, I would just about guarantee, that if you paid a little more and bought a K-1 kit, or something similar, it would be perfect and indeed ready to assemble. So in the long run, which is the better deal? To fix the flange, the taper, the runout, the cosmetics, scrape bearings and rebalance....you are into a good deal of labor on your "cheap" crank and we have not even looked at the rods and pistons yet. And from all the evidence we have seen in the past, you would be crazy to NOT have all this stuff checked. So I am just not seeing the huge cost savings in these "ready to assemble" economy engine kits. It MIGHT save an experienced builder a few bucks, because he will check and repair all this stuff himself.....but, the time spent will be passed on to a customer. I still see no savings in it for the "average" guy.
Monte
Hit the nail on the head.Sometime soon I will want to buy a kit and yes I am a cheap minded person but also I know what the bottom line is. So this build by BG is great.Only thing would be even better would be a side by side build with a higher priced "american made" kit. That would be intresting.
We already have a baseline cost for the kits using other budget kits(Eagle Assemblys)At the conclusion we will do that comparasion.Just what do you consider an "American Kit".To compare to a kit using Oliver rods,Bryant cranks,JE pistons would be worthless to most budget minded racer.Those high doller cranks cost as much or near as much as an Eagle or Source complete kit.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: slippery440]
#569552
01/04/10 10:49 AM
01/04/10 10:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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I really don't know. What you are saying is that the high dollar cranks alone cost as much as a kit from Source or Eagle. You are right that is out of my budget range.As far a american made kit who knows anymore.Should of said a kit that is in the same price range.Must of missed your first post on what you are trying to do.Thank you for doing this build.
Then you have made a fair request and at the conclusion of the build we will give the cost comparasion.This has been the concerning issue from day one,is the low cost worth it or do you spend more on corrections and labor than buying a kit at a little higher cost. Cost is the driving factor,not where anything is made.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: justinp61]
#569554
01/04/10 12:02 PM
01/04/10 12:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Bob, aside from Eagle, who else are you comparing the source kits too?
There are quite a few,Cat,Scat,and many suppliers are selling kits with various combinations of parts,Indy,Mancini,Ohio Crankshaft and just about all the Mopar builders,many on Moparts.We have been using Eagle from Indy with great success.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569556
01/04/10 12:10 PM
01/04/10 12:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295 U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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Just to help the cause here for comparison! I'll check my invoice for the carillo "RBRE" stroker kit as soon as I get home! I just got it about 2 months ago!
Mopar Performance
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569557
01/04/10 12:28 PM
01/04/10 12:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
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Bob, aside from Eagle, who else are you comparing the source kits too?
There are quite a few,Cat,Scat,and many suppliers are selling kits with various combinations of parts,Indy,Mancini,Ohio Crankshaft and just about all the Mopar builders,many on Moparts.We have been using Eagle from Indy with great success.
IMO it's fairer to say this isn't a comparison so much as an informational post. Prospective customers can do thier own comparisons. But hopefully after this, they'll know what questions to ask and what areas to be aware of when they comparison shop. There are endless combinations of kits and some kits of the same parts will be different costs from different sources simply because they already inspect and correct them.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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