Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55555
03/31/08 09:46 PM
03/31/08 09:46 PM
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MR_P_BODY
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Thats too bad that you didnt get to play more, still pretty decent numbers, thats 1.59 hp per ci. Are you changing to pushrod oiling
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#55556
03/31/08 09:48 PM
03/31/08 09:48 PM
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AndyF
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Last time it was on the dyno it made about 740 hp. Major change was from a big flat tappet cam (Comp MM305) to a roller cam. The roller cam had a few degrees less duration than the flat tappet but a ton more lift. Lift went from .650 to .830 on the intake side.
I also changed from a 440-3 intake to a 440-3X and I put a belt drive on the motor as well as a reverse flow water pump.
I doubt the belt drive or water pump made a power difference so I'm guessing it was mostly due to the cam change. I was going to do a -3 vs. -3X intake shoot out but ran out of time. Besides, the dyno operator wasn't too happy because the dyno needle was bouncing off the stops. His dyno torque gauge is only setup for about 700 ft-lbs and we were getting really close to that.
One other change I made was that I leaned out the intermediate circuit on my Holley Ultra HP by 80% from stock. Stock was an 46 jet and I leaned it out to a 20 jet. That is a 80% reduction in area and it seemed to work. The AF ratio leaned out to about 12.5 and stayed that way for the entire pull. With the stock jetting the motor would start the pull at 10:1 and then gradually lean down to 12 or so. I'm sure the carb tuning picked up some power too.
Last edited by AndyF; 03/31/08 09:53 PM.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55557
03/31/08 09:59 PM
03/31/08 09:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,618 long island NY
Ari440
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where the oil lines restricted ?
what whould this combo do in a 3470 pound car
Im collecting parts to do the same combo ?
Last edited by Ari440; 03/31/08 10:00 PM.
1.39 9.85 - 137 mph
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55559
03/31/08 11:05 PM
03/31/08 11:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Quote:
The oil lines to the valve covers? No, I didn't add any restriction to them. The holes in spray bars aren't very big but I ran them just the way they came from Indy. I didn't make any mods to the valve covers.
When I first got these parts I really didn't think it would work with the heavy springs so I called Indy. The guy I talked to said that they run all their Jesel setups with spray bar oiling and it works just fine. Well it didn't work very well for me. I don't think I damaged any parts but the several of the pushrod ends were blue after just a few dyno pulls so I know it was headed south in a hurry.
Andy was the oil spraying on the rockers/pushrods since you moved them around
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#55562
04/01/08 12:54 AM
04/01/08 12:54 AM
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AndyF
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All of the rocker arms had plenty of oil in them when I pulled the covers off and there is oil pooled around each valve spring so I think all the holes were spraying and plenty of oil was flying around.
Here is a picture of the pushrod ends. I took it apart this evening and inspected stuff really close. There doesn't appear to be any damage to anything but you can tell it was getting hot. The pushrods have a burnt oil smell to them so they were smoking hot. Had we kept making dyno pulls I'm pretty sure we would've started to eat parts.
Last edited by AndyF; 04/01/08 01:09 AM.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#55565
04/01/08 01:07 AM
04/01/08 01:07 AM
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AndyF
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Quote:
Thats too bad that you didnt get to play more, still pretty decent numbers, thats 1.59 hp per ci. Are you changing to pushrod oiling
Nope, I'm not going to change to pushrod oiling. This is a stock block with stock main caps so at 800 hp we're living on borrowed time. The 440Source crank and SCAT rods are also near their limit at 800 hp. I know that SCAT advertises these rods as "800 hp rods" so no need to push the stuff much harder.
I'm going to change the heads to some MP 452 heads that Modern ported for me and put a street roller cam in it and then it should live a long time.
I wasn't really expecting these EZ heads to go 800 hp but they did. Probably time to sell this top end to someone who has a good block rather than me using it to blow up stock blocks.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55566
04/01/08 01:17 AM
04/01/08 01:17 AM
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Anonymous
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Andy, that spark plug looks like it has some black spots on it. maybe some detonation going on? what did those heads flow at .800 lift? maybe a 2nd spraybar is needed with that rocker setup to get to the pushrod side. i don't know that i'd ever go the jesel route with those heads myself but it's some good info for the vault just in case.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55569
04/01/08 01:40 AM
04/01/08 01:40 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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how much fuel did that engine use at peak HP and how were the BSFC numbers on it? again, thanks for the update. that's a strong running combo.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: mark_gates]
#55571
04/01/08 06:05 AM
04/01/08 06:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 20 Adelaide, Australia
RVG440
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Andy, I have a B1 original style cylinder head engine.For the oiling i actually made my own tubing and fitted nitrous nozzels (4) per each side and ran them to the back of the block with a simple manifold that picks up of the back oil passage. the nozzels are faced right at the back off the rocker and valve spring and is more than enough. i grubbed screwed the oil passages in the block that feed the heads as i am using T&D induvidual shaft rockers. so all oiling now comes from the nozzels. i screwed them into the rocker covers and they work very well. Regards simon
H.R.E Hippo race Engineering.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: RVG440]
#55572
04/01/08 06:29 AM
04/01/08 06:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932 Finalnd, Perkele
jyrki
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Just for thought; we once fought with a similar problem we found no reason for. Everything was like they were supposed to be, but the problem existed and was a result of going to a bigger cam & springs. It all ended by switching to another oil, after that no problems at all. Seems like the oil we were using couldn't handle the surface pressures of the new springs. Perhaps worth trying?
Plynouth VIP '67 TT IC EFI
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55575
04/01/08 10:07 AM
04/01/08 10:07 AM
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Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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FWIW, one of my customers is running the 572-13 heads with 1.7 Jesel rockers and a .775 lift cam, using the spray bar valve covers. 3 seasons, no problems at all.
another has a 622 with 600-13 heads, .880 lift cam, triple springs, 1.75/1.7 rockers.....no problems with the spray bar oiling.
all im saying is.....there are plenty of people out there using it succesfully, so its not like it wont work.
both of those motors are running ball/ball pushrods.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: AndyF]
#55576
04/01/08 10:09 AM
04/01/08 10:09 AM
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Posts: 16,925 NC
440Jim
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Quote:
Last time it was on the dyno it made about 740 hp. Major change was from a big flat tappet cam (Comp MM305) to a roller cam. The roller cam had a few degrees less duration than the flat tappet but a ton more lift. Lift went from .650 to .830 on the intake side.
I bet if you look at the duration at 0.200" tappet lift, you will see the roller has more duration giving "area under the curve" for more cylinder filling.
That is one stout combo.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#55580
04/01/08 11:58 AM
04/01/08 11:58 AM
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Posts: 31,023 Oregon
AndyF
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Those were the peak numbers recorded on the run but the dyno operator was backing off the load since the torque gauge needle was pegged. My guess is that the motor would've made a little more power on a SuperFlow or DTS setup that was capable of more power. On the other hand, we might have just blown the bottom end out of the block if we had loaded it hard for another 1000 rpm.
Jim - actually the roller cam has less duration at 50 and 200 than the MM305 flat tappet. I'm pretty sure it has more duration at 300 lift and above though but I didn't measure those points. I think this is just an example where the published cam info doesn't really convey the full picture.
Actual numbers on the camshaft: MM305 intake lobe is 305/279/197 for the seat duration, 050 duration and 200 duration. This roller cam was a 1722 intake lobe which is 308/275/195 so a tiny bit bigger on the seat but a tiny bit smaller on the 50 and 200 duration. These cam lobes were selected to have identical duration to the flat tappet but more lift. That was one of the things I was interested in looking at.
Of course, it isn't apples to apples since I used a 1.50 rocker arm with the MM305 and a 1.70 rocker arm with the roller. The bigger rocker arm ratio gets the valve open sooner so the valve sees more duration.
Last edited by AndyF; 04/01/08 12:07 PM.
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Re: 505 motor made 805 hp
[Re: earlybee]
#55582
04/01/08 12:34 PM
04/01/08 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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mikemotorhead
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"all im saying is.....there are plenty of people out there using it succesfully, so its not like it wont work." both of those motors are running ball/ball pushrods. " -------------------- I have 2 seasons on my Ball/ball Jesel combo with the spraybars and have not had any problems! Mike
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