Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#553160
12/20/09 04:52 PM
12/20/09 04:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Eighty Four, PA
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The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.
Can you please explain as you understand it. mike
Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.
Monte
I would like to add for all Mopars cars with the engine and trans in the stock or near stock location that if the angle of the front u-joint is within the specified angle(working range)of the manufacture recommendations or negative of the trans output shaft NO CORRECTION is require.Pinion angle is measured at the rear u-joint and should be adjusted at the rear u-joint to insure it maintains a reasonable alignment within the working range.Many high powered,high torqued performance cars may need additional negative pinion angle at the rear u-joint to ensure that under power and torque loads a reasonable working range is achieved and maintained.The angle will constantly change as the power/torque is increased or decreased.Never change the angle of the front joint buy raising or lowering the trans unless it is beyond the specified working range.If you have to shim the trans mount excessively look for a problem at your rear suspension.This is from a design engineer that claims hands on development on the Luner Rover suspension.So this will hopefully help 85% of the people with mopars with stock style cars that run springs,4links and ladder bars with stock style front suspensions and engine/trans locations.Most the rest of us know how to build race cars or have some professional do it for us.In typical "Barnyard Fashion"85% can now Moooovvvee on with confidence and rest of us can do what we do,while "Chiken Little" can cry that the sky will fall if you don't do the front angle thingee.No Disrespect to any one,just relaying what some wizeazz engineer told me,you all know what I think about engineers
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: B G Racing]
#553161
12/20/09 06:11 PM
12/20/09 06:11 PM
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Anonymous
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
#553163
12/20/09 06:56 PM
12/20/09 06:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274 s.w.fl
bonefish
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I have sent the two methods to a group of scientific geniuses . This is the very same group that did all the global warming research .However at the present time they are snow bound in Copenhagen. When they reply I will post their findings
i dont care what anybody thinks,thats the funniest thing Freds ever said!!! (mabey the only funny thing he,s ever said)
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Quicktree]
#553164
12/20/09 08:06 PM
12/20/09 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte
has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.
Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.
Monte
he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth
sign me up for the new book
why you already know everything. no need for you to read
i need something to laugh at while i'm on the hopper
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Quicktree]
#553165
12/20/09 08:45 PM
12/20/09 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.
Can you please explain as you understand it. mike
Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.
Monte
I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.
Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.
The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.
But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle. But just move up and down.
Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.
For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.
For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.
Its obvious both schools of thought work,
but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.
My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.
Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike
Last edited by Sport440; 12/20/09 09:32 PM.
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Sport440]
#553166
12/20/09 09:02 PM
12/20/09 09:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level. The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart. But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle. But just move up and down. Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power. For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline. For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft. Its obvious both schools of thought work, but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan, Mark Williems ETC cant be that far off track. My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good. Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike
Yes that would be the case IF all the bars are equal length and parallel BUT most all 4-links have un- equal length bars, so they arc in different lines even if parallel, now putting that you want to have a IC point (instead of parallel) you have the other point to play with....... JMO
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Sport440]
#553167
12/21/09 02:02 AM
12/21/09 02:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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North Alabama
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The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.
Can you please explain as you understand it. mike
Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.
Monte
I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.
Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.
The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.
But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle. But just move up and down.
Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.
For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.
For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.
Its obvious both schools of thought work,
but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.
My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.
Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike
The angle of the pinion will only remain stationary, if the bars are the exact same length, mounted on the same exact angle and the upper and lower mounting points on the rear end, are the same distance from axle centerline top and bottom and also front to rear. Since no "Race" 4-link brackets are constructed in this way, it is a moot point. As far as your list of scholars, well, quite a few years ago, all the "best minds in the world" said the world was flat. We see how that worked out.
Monte
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#553168
12/21/09 11:37 AM
12/21/09 11:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664 North Sweden
RT540
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North Sweden
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I checked how much the pinion angle changed with 2" of travel up and down. Even with 1" of up and down travel, the angle will still change, but not as much as this. These bars are aprox 20" long, and I was told that this is a drawing of a SW 4-link. I usually have 2-4" longer bars in my own 4-link drawings. IC is 45" and lower bar is 3° down, just as an example.
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Sport440]
#553170
12/21/09 07:02 PM
12/21/09 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14 Orange Park, Florida
Mrs Quicktree
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Thanks RT540 and Monte. Your showing just over 5* pinion angle change at a 4" travel. Thats alot more then I expected with a 4 Link.
Thanks for answering in a way that my thick head could understand it. mike
Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: Mrs Quicktree]
#553172
12/21/09 08:18 PM
12/21/09 08:18 PM
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#553173
12/21/09 09:32 PM
12/21/09 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14 Orange Park, Florida
Mrs Quicktree
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Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know
Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q
I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: Mrs Quicktree]
#553174
12/21/09 09:36 PM
12/21/09 09:36 PM
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
#553175
12/21/09 09:37 PM
12/21/09 09:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
OP
I Win
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know
Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q
I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans
OMG !!! I was right
that better
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Mrs Quicktree]
#553176
12/21/09 09:38 PM
12/21/09 09:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know
Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q
I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans
Oh well.... you can still tell her hello from me
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: dusturbd340W5]
#553178
12/21/09 09:40 PM
12/21/09 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
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let's pray this is not who Mrs QuickTree really is
Tony how did Fred get your picture
yea he dables in male porn it looks like either that or he was looking for a new dress
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