Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 08:58 PM

and further more the link you provided was straight out of Dave Morgans book

copied and pasted by wolfracing or whoever

and he addmitted that was confusing and wrong

he was refering to a chassis car where the drive shaft was inline with the motor tranny center line

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 09:03 PM

Quote:

and further more the link you provided was straight out of Dave Morgans book copied and pasted by wolfracing or whoever and he addmitted that was confusing and wrong he was refering to a chassis car where the drive shaft was inline with the motor tranny center line

good, at least were on the same page

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 09:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

and further more the link you provided was straight out of Dave Morgans book copied and pasted by wolfracing or whoever and he addmitted that was confusing and wrong he was refering to a chassis car where the drive shaft was inline with the motor tranny center line

good, at least were on the same page

good, glad you finally understand how to set pinion angle

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 09:51 PM

Quote:

I hate pinion angle If we took all the time wasted on this site talking about it, we could have started our own tranny shop and made up our own pinion angle check sheets.... Then we'd all be heros. Mike

you are probably right Mike but we really have nothing else to talk about. people think Ray and I are enimies but we really are friends. I think

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 10:23 PM

Quote:

why? neither one of you have a good argument on why to ignore the front ujoint. I tend to lean towards somebody that has done extensive testing in this area. if you have some kind of hard proof I am all ears but to this point the best you guys can do is give some kind of 4 wheel drive reference

I gave you PROOF with my car (it's not 4 wheel drive)........and it didn't work doing it the way you explain......I'm the one that had to cut off the perches and reweld everything, and believe me, I've set the pinion angle on a LOT of cars the other way and NEVER had an issue..........What else do you want to know???

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 10:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

why? neither one of you have a good argument on why to ignore the front ujoint. I tend to lean towards somebody that has done extensive testing in this area. if you have some kind of hard proof I am all ears but to this point the best you guys can do is give some kind of 4 wheel drive reference

I gave you PROOF with my car (it's not 4 wheel drive)........and it didn't work doing it the way you explain......I'm the one that had to cut off the perches and reweld everything, and believe me, I've set the pinion angle on a LOT of cars the other way and NEVER had an issue..........What else do you want to know???

thats not proof

to many other things could be involved

Posted By: plycuda

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 11:37 PM

I hope his class got alot better than the one I went to in richmond va a year or so ago that was a waste of money. spend hours on how shocks work and talked about how they did things 20 years ago. went with 2 other guys and I was sorry I told them about it because they were not happy either. Now the seminar with monty was well worth the money. maybe he can do a chassis seminar.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/14/09 11:40 PM

Quote:

I hope his class got alot better than the one I went to in richmond va a year or so ago that was a waste of money. spend hours on how shocks work and talked about how they did things 20 years ago. went with 2 other guys and I was sorry I told them about it because they were not happy either. Now the seminar with monty was well worth the money. maybe he can do a chassis seminar.

well we had about 8 hours of clas and about 1 on shocks and I learned a few things about them in that hour. so I guess it depends on what your looking for.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:05 AM

Quote:

thats not proof to many other things could be involved

Like what?

Quote:

I hope his class got alot better than the one I went to in richmond va a year or so ago that was a waste of money. spend hours on how shocks work and talked about how they did things 20 years ago. went with 2 other guys and I was sorry I told them about it because they were not happy either. Now the seminar with monty was well worth the money. maybe he can do a chassis seminar.

I had the exact same experience with a 4 others that talked me into going........His class was cheap, and still wasn't worth the money IMHO.......

I was surprised that there was absolutely no talk about suspension/shock tuning.......

Having said that, the two day class may be better???

I've talked to Monte about doing a supsension class, but he doesn't think he could talk about just suspensions for 6 to 8 hours.......I had Ron Thomas (chassisman) lined up to teach a class, but there just wasn't enough interest.....Nitrous is one of those things where if it's wrong, it could kill your motor.......if your suspension is wrong, people just put a bigger tire on it or are happy with mediocrity.........

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:18 AM

you know I am a huge fan of Monte's. he has forgot more than I will ever learn. but one thing I have seen is that some of you guys who are real close say the same things

I enjoyed the part about shocks. he explained how the different shocks work. I think it's up to you to take that and learn to tune from that. If I had to buy another inexpensive shock it would be an affco. I don't know how you could say it's not worth the money unless you know everything he talked about. I knew a few things he talked about but also leraned a few things. if you pick up one thing that helps your race program it's worth the money imo.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:23 AM

Like what?

oh yea, like the entire suspension. front to rear, shocks, springs everything. your example doesn't prove anything to me

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:27 AM

Wayne Give up, The master of all things drag racing has spoken.
This topic is done...who is up for a 509 cam discussion

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:31 AM

Quote:

Wayne Give up, The master of all things drag racing has spoken.
This topic is done...who is up for a 509 cam discussion

oh knock off the BS, I know you could come up with something better than that

nothing wrong with a friendly debate with any subject. I consider both of these guys my friends. we just happen to believe in different things. it's obvious both work to some degree.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:04 PM

Quote:

Like what?

oh yea, like the entire suspension. front to rear, shocks, springs everything. your example doesn't prove anything to me

Springs.......I had some REALLY stiff leaf springs made for my car.....It's a stick, I didn't want to use Cal-tracs, and I wanted to leave hard....They look like truck spings.....They're so stiff that when you jack the car up and set jack stand under the front spring hangers, the rearend hardly comes down at all..

.......so, that should help the pinion not go nose down as bad as stock springs and make it howl..........

Front suspension and Shocks.....I don't understand how they could make the rearend howl......It's just got some CE 50/50's on the rear......

My car was fine as long as I was accelerating or at a steady speed.......If I let off the throttle even just a little bit, it howled so bad it was unbelievable.......

Morgan.......on shocks....I think Morgan could have spent 10 minutes on them and been done.....Show one apart and stress how important they are.......and then it'd been nice if he'd have talked about shock tuning.......

Posted By: BJS racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:08 PM

Guys I am only going to say this one thing then let you guys get back to it. I have been working with Dave for 5 years now and have hosted 6 different seminars in Texas with him and every time he comes here we talk about it before hand and I learn from Dave every time he comes out. The best experience I have had was last year when we did the 6 hour class and then went to the track and did inspections and made passes with the cars and started making adjustments there. Yes everyone has a different approach to a subject. If Monte ever did a seminar on this subject I would love to go for a different perspective. Dave has a great class. If you are already seasoned in chassis and suspension then you may not pick up as much as someone just starting to learn. But we have been working on setting the class up to where everyone will pull more out of the class. And with some of the things that are starting to be discussed I believe that next year there will be quite a bit of change in the classes and the information that will be in the class.

Posted By: 68CudaB1

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:41 PM

My buddy and I went to a 2 day Dave Morgan seminar and thought it was excellent, some of the best money ever spent....maybe that was because we were really suspension amateurs, but we got more than our monies worth

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 02:43 PM

Quote:

Guys I am only going to say this one thing then let you guys get back to it. I have been working with Dave for 5 years now and have hosted 6 different seminars in Texas with him and every time he comes here we talk about it before hand and I learn from Dave every time he comes out. The best experience I have had was last year when we did the 6 hour class and then went to the track and did inspections and made passes with the cars and started making adjustments there. Yes everyone has a different approach to a subject. If Monte ever did a seminar on this subject I would love to go for a different perspective. Dave has a great class. If you are already seasoned in chassis and suspension then you may not pick up as much as someone just starting to learn. But we have been working on setting the class up to where everyone will pull more out of the class. And with some of the things that are starting to be discussed I believe that next year there will be quite a bit of change in the classes and the information that will be in the class.

I enjoyed Daves class when he was in Kalamazoo a
few years ago... he did spend a fair amount of time
on shocks but the people in the class also dictate
what they want to discuss (to an extent) plus Dave,
my wife and I sat down afterwords in the pub for a
couple of hours still discussing different subjects

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 04:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I hate pinion angle If we took all the time wasted on this site talking about it, we could have started our own tranny shop and made up our own pinion angle check sheets.... Then we'd all be heros. Mike

you are probably right Mike but we really have nothing else to talk about. people think Ray and I are enimies but we really are friends. I think

oh ya! we are great friends.

(i try to be friendly to old people, maybe one will leave me something in his will)

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 07:45 PM

Quote:

if you pick up one thing that helps your race program it's worth the money imo.

THAT IS A FACT for $85!

Would I go again? probably not.
Do I regret going? Absolutely not.
Would I recommend it to someone for a first time? Absolutely.

also as Mike said the class discussion will go in the direction of the majority of students. having leaf spring, ladder bar and 4 link students there makes it hard to be specific on one particular topic. Mike, Hemi Al, and I wanted to go in the 4 link chassis car direction but we had 3 or 4 LS guys so it went back and forth. And the students can keep the shock section from taking up too much time but directing the conversation.

plus your out of the house hanging with other racers for the day. only thing better is if he had it at Hooters.

oh yeah, were's the class pictures of you dorks?

Posted By: BJS racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 07:50 PM

[quote only thing better is if he had it at Hooters.

Didn't think of that one. Maybe I should put that on the list for next year!

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 09:00 PM

Quote:

[quote only thing better is if he had it at Hooters.

Didn't think of that one. Maybe I should put that on the list for next year!

better yet just have some strippers come to the seminar

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 09:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

[quote only thing better is if he had it at Hooters.

Didn't think of that one. Maybe I should put that on the list for next year!

better yet just have some strippers come to the seminar

no wonder you can't figure out "pinion" angle. They have medicine now to help you old guys set pinion angle.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/15/09 10:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

[quote only thing better is if he had it at Hooters.

Didn't think of that one. Maybe I should put that on the list for next year!

better yet just have some strippers come to the seminar

no wonder you can't figure out "pinion" angle. They have medicine now to help you old guys set pinion angle.

Pinion nose down without,pinion nose up with.I have been standing it up without for over forty years.Been doing it wrong,but never broke a tranny case,u-joint,driveshaft or yoke in the last 30 years,pinion to shaft or shaft to pinion

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 03:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

well, its a good thing i wasnt there

Me too.......I guess everyone likes to over rocketeer it and pee in the ocean to raise the tide........

why? neither one of you have a good argument on why to ignore the front ujoint. I tend to lean towards somebody that has done extensive testing in this area. if you have some kind of hard proof I am all ears but to this point the best you guys can do is give some kind of 4 wheel drive reference

Why, you have never given a good argument on why it DOES matter, other than a sheet you found somewhere and Dave Morgan says so. I don't do it that way, BG don't do it that way, Jerry Haas don't do it that way and I could go on, but it does not matter. You do it how you want and the rest of us will do it how we want. Oh, by the way, can we get a link to the results of this "extensive testing".

Monte

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 04:19 AM

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7571/

back for the holidays

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 10:43 AM

Quote:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7571/

back for the holidays

are you guys ganging up attacking me again?

when I get time I will debunk your movie or should I call it made up fairy tails? you do have a good imagination though

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 01:14 PM

Quote:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7571/

back for the holidays

That was hilarious.....

but you forgot the comment about not being able to use a 4 wheel drive for comparison.....

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 01:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7571/

back for the holidays

That was hilarious..... but you forgot the comment about not being able to use a 4 wheel drive for comparison.....

that was made 74 pinion angle threads ago

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 02:11 PM

If all the pinion setting is required to be determined at the trans out put shaft,then eveytime you adjust your suspension,ladder bar or 4 link do you have to pull the driveshaft and if you can't get the correct pinion angle relationship by adjusting the rearend do you then move the trans

I don't think so

I agree that when building a chassis you place the driveline so that the u-joints are within the best working ranges.No disrespect to Mr. Morgen,I have read the Doorslammers book and attended one of his classes years ago and found that I disagree on some of his findings.I have never run a ladder bar at negative on backhalved cars with stock suspension,always level or positive.Different strokes for different folks.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 05:15 PM

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 05:51 PM

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.If what anyone is doing works than that's what they must rely on and share that knowledge.To not be open minded only limits what one can learn.To Tony(Quicktree)A mind is like a parachute,it only works when it's open.I agree with Monte that we may all be correct but achieve the same things buy different process.The method we proport is the simplest to do and understand.I have had many inquires of people that took Tony's drawings and tried to apply them to their set-up only to scratch their heads in confusion.Some tried to move the trans and created a lot of other issues,:clearence,binding and etc.Only to find that using the adjustments at the bars solved the great pinion debate of this century.Like Monte said some of us are different,I think some of us are"wierd"

Posted By: kissmyaspen

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 07:34 PM

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

Last I talked to him he was writing a new book. that was 3 years ago when i was in school. i had him for 2 six week classes i would still like to go to one of his seminars. Very smart man. on of the 6 week i spent a lot of time under a 68 NSS AA car.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 09:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.If what anyone is doing works than that's what they must rely on and share that knowledge.To not be open minded only limits what one can learn.To Tony(Quicktree)A mind is like a parachute,it only works when it's open.I agree with Monte that we may all be correct but achieve the same things buy different process.The method we proport is the simplest to do and understand.I have had many inquires of people that took Tony's drawings and tried to apply them to their set-up only to scratch their heads in confusion.Some tried to move the trans and created a lot of other issues,:clearence,binding and etc.Only to find that using the adjustments at the bars solved the great pinion debate of this century.Like Monte said some of us are different,I think some of us are"wierd"

wait a minute

, I have no books or drawings

what was posted if off of rosslers(who builds trannnies for some of the quickest and fastest cars on the planet) web site not mine. and I have said many times that I agree to dissagree. and i don't have a parachute either. you guys keep attacking me and I am not the expert writing these things I just believe they seem like a a better way than the 30 year old method that was taught by the early chrysler racers. I listen to everyone then decide for myself which way I think is better for me right or wrong. I would be willing to bet there are more people setting their angles like this than offf the drive shaft. there were 13 people in our class and not a one used the drive shaft method.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 09:28 PM

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

I hope I have never said you were wrong. I don't recall saying that anyway. it's obvious that your method works but still can't see any benefit to doing it that way. you asked for a link to tests

do you have any links to your private test sessions?

Monte you know I admire your work and have deep respect for your knowledge. I love to learn new things and follow your posts. there are plenty on this site who disagree with you on this subject but don't post in fear of getting attacked

as you have seen over the years I have thick skin and say what I think

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 10:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.If what anyone is doing works than that's what they must rely on and share that knowledge.To not be open minded only limits what one can learn.To Tony(Quicktree)A mind is like a parachute,it only works when it's open.I agree with Monte that we may all be correct but achieve the same things buy different process.The method we proport is the simplest to do and understand.I have had many inquires of people that took Tony's drawings and tried to apply them to their set-up only to scratch their heads in confusion.Some tried to move the trans and created a lot of other issues,:clearence,binding and etc.Only to find that using the adjustments at the bars solved the great pinion debate of this century.Like Monte said some of us are different,I think some of us are"wierd"

wait a minute , I have no books or drawings what was posted if off of rosslers(who builds trannnies for some of the quickest and fastest cars on the planet) web site not mine. and I have said many times that I agree to dissagree. and i don't have a parachute either. you guys keep attacking me and I am not the expert writing these things I just believe they seem like a a better way than the 30 year old method that was taught by the early chrysler racers. I listen to everyone then decide for myself which way I think is better for me right or wrong. I would be willing to bet there are more people setting their angles like this than offf the drive shaft. there were 13 people in our class and not a one used the drive shaft method.

Tony,maybe that's why they were in the class

J/K

I'am glad you have alligator skin

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 11:27 PM

eye aldwayz thunk it waz two tri too cansel da 2 werking angels out underz load.

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/16/09 11:55 PM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:02 AM

Quote:

why do you keep reading these boring posts?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:28 AM

Quote:

eye aldwayz thunk it waz two tri too cansel da 2 werking angels out underz load.

Youz a dumazz,youz needs sum angles ta keep da needles turnen

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

eye aldwayz thunk it waz two tri too cansel da 2 werking angels out underz load.

Youz a dumazz,youz needs sum angles ta keep da needles turnen

and youz need glazzes old man (

). I didn't say everything inline line at 0�. ezample -2.5� trans/driveshaft and +2.5� drivehaft/pinion.....

both ujoints will have angles to make them "work"

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

eye aldwayz thunk it waz two tri too cansel da 2 werking angels out underz load.

Youz a dumazz,youz needs sum angles ta keep da needles turnen

and youz need glazzes old man ( ). I didn't say everything inline line at 0�. ezample -2.5� trans/driveshaft and +2.5� drivehaft/pinion..... both ujoints will have angles to make them "work"

oh no now your going to be attacked by the ancient army

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

eye aldwayz thunk it waz two tri too cansel da 2 werking angels out underz load.

Youz a dumazz,youz needs sum angles ta keep da needles turnen

and youz need glazzes old man ( ). I didn't say everything inline line at 0�. ezample -2.5� trans/driveshaft and +2.5� drivehaft/pinion..... both ujoints will have angles to make them "work"

oh no now your going to be attacked by the ancient army

Ouch!!! you cut me Jim,cut me deep!I'am going to

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 12:59 AM

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:10 AM

Quote:

That's just so not right

You probably think I hadn't noticed

Where's the Shadow when I need him?You poked the "Bear"

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:15 AM

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:17 AM

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

I think he was commenting on my Herotar below my name...........

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:19 AM

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

Take it off and you can have what ever you want,PM me sizes and address to send.

You are a sick puppy

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

I think he was commenting on my Herotar below my name...........

that is some kind of ugly

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

I think he was commenting on my Herotar below my name...........

that is some kind of ugly

Tony,PM your size and address also,you do deserve something for the abuse.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 01:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

I think he was commenting on my Herotar below my name...........

that is some kind of ugly

Tony,PM your size and address also,you do deserve something for the abuse.

done

Posted By: DoubleD

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 02:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

lol, do I win a BG shirt? XOXOXOXO

I should get the t-shirt as much beatings as I take

I think he was commenting on my Herotar below my name...........

Now that is funny! - but perish the thought two BG's - this world is not big enough to handle that!

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 02:37 AM

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 02:42 AM

Quote:

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

or you could take up a donation for a set of barton rockers for my hemi so I can finish it. and stop by and help me do some chassis work

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:08 AM

Quote:

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

paypal sent......

front

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:08 AM

back

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:17 AM

Thats perfect, I was thinking the older version of the cover, but camaro is still intact on the newer version, so it'll do. I'm thinking "Quicktree" in script writing on the other side???????

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:25 AM

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:28 AM

Quote:

Thats perfect, I was thinking the older version of the cover, but camaro is still intact on the newer version, so it'll do. I'm thinking "Quicktree" in script writing on the other side???????

fixed

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

paypal sent......

front

You guys are brutal ......... LOL.... next will
be the 8 3/4 discussion ... LOL

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:36 AM

Is that BG in your avatar or Fred's "pen"pal?

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:40 AM

Hi Mike

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 03:50 AM

Quote:

Hi Mike

LOL....... it isnt me... I dont wear a PINK hat... LOL

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 07:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

I hope I have never said you were wrong. I don't recall saying that anyway. it's obvious that your method works but still can't see any benefit to doing it that way. you asked for a link to tests do you have any links to your private test sessions? Monte you know I admire your work and have deep respect for your knowledge. I love to learn new things and follow your posts. there are plenty on this site who disagree with you on this subject but don't post in fear of getting attacked as you have seen over the years I have thick skin and say what I think

You are missing the whole point here dude. YOU are the one who is adamant, that their way is right. When this comes up and BG or myself explains the way we do it, you produce your Rossler drawing and Dave Morgan statements and present that as the "right" way to do it. You don't present your way as "another idea", only as the "right" way. So the way I see it, if yours is the only "right" way, that makes the rest of us wrong in your eyes. Now here is the main point. I don't care, how you, Dave Morgan, or anybody else, sets their pinion angle, nor do I care if anyone else here disagrees with me, nor do I have any data other than experience. It is anybodys perogative to agree or disagree with mine, or any other opinions and I surely don't sweat it if they do. When posters ask for opinions, I give mine. I have done it this way for years, never had an issue and it works for me. And while I agree with the Rossler sheet for a streeter, I do not for a race car. You will also notice that I don't even post on the pinion angle threads anymore, because it is a waste of my time. The only reason I am commenting here, is becauuse I got dragged into it.

Monte

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

I hope I have never said you were wrong. I don't recall saying that anyway. it's obvious that your method works but still can't see any benefit to doing it that way. you asked for a link to tests do you have any links to your private test sessions? Monte you know I admire your work and have deep respect for your knowledge. I love to learn new things and follow your posts. there are plenty on this site who disagree with you on this subject but don't post in fear of getting attacked as you have seen over the years I have thick skin and say what I think

You are missing the whole point here dude. YOU are the one who is adamant, that their way is right. When this comes up and BG or myself explains the way we do it, you produce your Rossler drawing and Dave Morgan statements and present that as the "right" way to do it. You don't present your way as "another idea", only as the "right" way. So the way I see it, if yours is the only "right" way, that makes the rest of us wrong in your eyes. Now here is the main point. I don't care, how you, Dave Morgan, or anybody else, sets their pinion angle, nor do I care if anyone else here disagrees with me, nor do I have any data other than experience. It is anybodys perogative to agree or disagree with mine, or any other opinions and I surely don't sweat it if they do. When posters ask for opinions, I give mine. I have done it this way for years, never had an issue and it works for me. And while I agree with the Rossler sheet for a streeter, I do not for a race car. You will also notice that I don't even post on the pinion angle threads anymore, because it is a waste of my time. The only reason I am commenting here, is becauuse I got dragged into it.

Monte

Yeah Tony,didn't the fact that Monte and I agreed on something turn a light bulb on in you little mind?I jump in all the time for the entertainment.I love the t-shirt idea,only I would have a picture of you skydiving with out a parachute and a caption saying"Dave did it this way"

J/K

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

I hope I have never said you were wrong. I don't recall saying that anyway. it's obvious that your method works but still can't see any benefit to doing it that way. you asked for a link to tests do you have any links to your private test sessions? Monte you know I admire your work and have deep respect for your knowledge. I love to learn new things and follow your posts. there are plenty on this site who disagree with you on this subject but don't post in fear of getting attacked as you have seen over the years I have thick skin and say what I think

You are missing the whole point here dude. YOU are the one who is adamant, that their way is right. When this comes up and BG or myself explains the way we do it, you produce your Rossler drawing and Dave Morgan statements and present that as the "right" way to do it. You don't present your way as "another idea", only as the "right" way. So the way I see it, if yours is the only "right" way, that makes the rest of us wrong in your eyes. Now here is the main point. I don't care, how you, Dave Morgan, or anybody else, sets their pinion angle, nor do I care if anyone else here disagrees with me, nor do I have any data other than experience. It is anybodys perogative to agree or disagree with mine, or any other opinions and I surely don't sweat it if they do. When posters ask for opinions, I give mine. I have done it this way for years, never had an issue and it works for me. And while I agree with the Rossler sheet for a streeter, I do not for a race car. You will also notice that I don't even post on the pinion angle threads anymore, because it is a waste of my time. The only reason I am commenting here, is becauuse I got dragged into it.

Monte

I feel the same exact way dude

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I too have read Dave's book and find a lot of it that I don't agree with either. He(Dave) talked with a friend of mine recently, about doing a class at my friends shop and during the conversation, even Dave admitted he needed to update some of his info, as it was dated and things had changed quite a bit, since he had spent much time at the track. Dave Morgan is a smart man, no doubt, but does that mean we should all take what he says as the absolute gospel, of course not. His opinions are just that, opinions, same as the rest of us and not everyone will agree. So Quicktree, you can do it however you want, but just because I choose to do it differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are wrong, just different.

And as far as an "explanation", I have posted countless times, why I do it the way I do it, but you always seem to forget that part. Maybe if I had a pretty drawing I could call on everytime someone asked, I might be called the "expert"....

Monte

I hope I have never said you were wrong. I don't recall saying that anyway. it's obvious that your method works but still can't see any benefit to doing it that way. you asked for a link to tests do you have any links to your private test sessions? Monte you know I admire your work and have deep respect for your knowledge. I love to learn new things and follow your posts. there are plenty on this site who disagree with you on this subject but don't post in fear of getting attacked as you have seen over the years I have thick skin and say what I think

You are missing the whole point here dude. YOU are the one who is adamant, that their way is right. When this comes up and BG or myself explains the way we do it, you produce your Rossler drawing and Dave Morgan statements and present that as the "right" way to do it. You don't present your way as "another idea", only as the "right" way. So the way I see it, if yours is the only "right" way, that makes the rest of us wrong in your eyes. Now here is the main point. I don't care, how you, Dave Morgan, or anybody else, sets their pinion angle, nor do I care if anyone else here disagrees with me, nor do I have any data other than experience. It is anybodys perogative to agree or disagree with mine, or any other opinions and I surely don't sweat it if they do. When posters ask for opinions, I give mine. I have done it this way for years, never had an issue and it works for me. And while I agree with the Rossler sheet for a streeter, I do not for a race car. You will also notice that I don't even post on the pinion angle threads anymore, because it is a waste of my time. The only reason I am commenting here, is becauuse I got dragged into it.

Monte

Yeah Tony,didn't the fact that Monte and I agreed on something turn a light bulb on in you little mind?I jump in all the time for the entertainment.I love the t-shirt idea,only I would have a picture of you skydiving with out a parachute and a caption saying"Dave did it this way" J/K

no not really, just 2 old geezers doing what they do best

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:38 AM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:43 AM

I jump in all the time for the entertainment

bingo some people haven't figured that out yet

look at the hits

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:54 AM

I ALWAYS RUN AT LEAST A 13 DEGREE DOWN PINION ANGLE .

BASED ON AN EQUATION DERIVED FROM THE TORSION BAR ANGLE ADDED TO THE TRUNK LID DEGREE.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:57 AM

Quote:

I ALWAYS RUN AT LEAST A 13 DEGREE DOWN PINION ANGLE .

BASED ON AN EQUATION DERIVED FROM THE TORSION BAR ANGLE ADDED TO THE TRUNK LID DEGREE.

you are the man

I am using that method from here on.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 04:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

paypal sent......

front

I would wear that if you put the Quicktree racing over the left pocket.

by the way I am not the person who introduced the rossler charts and crap to the site

and when I repost them it's for instructional purpose for those who choose to set theirs with this method not to say who's wrong or right

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 04:39 PM

I feel for the ones who genuinely are looking for help setting pinion angle. I have never read Dave's book so I don't know what he suggests. I know how/why I personally do it and will continue doing it that way. But these threads sure are fun.

Attached picture 5673305-PA.jpg

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 04:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Hey BG, let's take up a donation for Tony's new shirt instead of sending him one of yours......On the front will be a pic of the cover Dave Morgan's chassis tuning manual, complete with 82 camaro pic and dust from being in the drawer for 20 years ......on the back, a snapshot of Rossler's pinion angle check list, including tranny fluid stains from previous tailshaft failures. What do you think?? Mike

paypal sent......

front

I would wear that if you put the Quicktree racing over the left pocket. by the way I am not the person who introduced the rossler charts and crap to the site and when I repost them it's for instructional purpose for those who choose to set theirs with this method not to say who's wrong or right

Mike,I'am sending Tony a picture of "the angle of my dangle" a hope he can get it to nose up to the proper relationship of the imput of the tranny tail.Also a couple of stained BGR shirts that can be checked for DNA.Tony has to take all the blame for these long running threads on pinion angles cause this is the only thing that gets anyones attention to him.To all those who are scratching their heads trying to use his method,thank him for screwing up holidays and giving them the"shaft"

Posted By: blown572dart

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 09:17 PM

ROLMFAO

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 09:48 PM

thats it, I need attention

Posted By: Mopar Grandpa

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:26 PM

This topic is done...who is up for a 509 cam discussion

A 509 camshaft???? How do you get that much duration??

And where can I buy one?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/17/09 10:53 PM

Quote:

This topic is done...who is up for a 509 cam discussion

A 509 camshaft???? How do you get that much duration??

And where can I buy one?

Ok,just another "shaft job"

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:16 AM

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better

, my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:17 AM

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:22 AM

Posted By: blown572dart

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:31 AM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:39 AM

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

you must just look at pictures and don't read anything

Dave has stated that is they way they done things back in the 60s. he has said many times after testing and solving many vibration and drive train issues he found it not to be correct in his opinion. he now recommends setting of of the motor/tranny center line. nice try though. it must really make you think

also take a look, the motor/tranny center line is on the same line as the drive shaft......

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:41 AM

Quote:

monkey see monkey do

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:45 AM

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

Mike, I have an identical book but it doesn't say Dave Morgan in the upper left where yours is whited out.........

Attached picture 5674488-023b.jpg

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:46 AM

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:47 AM

We need to Update the t-shirt!

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:52 AM

Mine says Dave Morgan on it. He was sponsored by Alston back in the eighties (60's) though.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:55 AM

Quote:

Mine says Dave Morgan on it. He was sponsored by Alston back in the eighties (60's) though.

he worked for alston for many years. racepak has just come on board to sponsor him. imagine that, sponsoring somebody who doesn't know how to set pinion angle

sombody needs to send calvert a t-shirt also along with spicer.

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:01 AM

My head hurts....anybody have any asprin

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

you must just look at pictures and don't read anything Dave has stated that is they way they done things back in the 60s. he has said many times after testing and solving many vibration and drive train issues he found it not to be correct in his opinion. he now recommends setting of of the motor/tranny center line. nice try though. it must really make you think also take a look, the motor/tranny center line is on the same line as the drive shaft......

Tony if you notice that the drive line is in line
in that pic... same way I set up my chassis stuff,
then I dial in the pinion angle on the drive shaft
just like the pic, which gives the front and rear
U-joints just a bit of angle for lube purposes

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

you must just look at pictures and don't read anything Dave has stated that is they way they done things back in the 60s. he has said many times after testing and solving many vibration and drive train issues he found it not to be correct in his opinion. he now recommends setting of of the motor/tranny center line. nice try though. it must really make you think also take a look, the motor/tranny center line is on the same line as the drive shaft......

Tony if you notice that the drive line is in line
in that pic... same way I set up my chassis stuff,
then I dial in the pinion angle on the drive shaft
just like the pic, which gives the front and rear
U-joints just a bit of angle for lube purposes

with that pic it further proves my point. you could pull that shaft out and still set your angle

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:18 AM

All that I'm saying (and always have) is there may be
more ways to get to the end of the road.... yes it
COULD mean the trans and ALSO mean the drive shaft
6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of the other..... same end point
but from a different exit. You might notice that when
people ask about this, I give BOTH choices, not what
I think might be correct

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:19 AM

Quote:

All that I'm saying (and always have) is there may be
more ways to get to the end of the road.... yes it
COULD mean the trans and ALSO mean the drive shaft
6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of the other..... same end point
but from a different exit. You might notice that when
people ask about this, I give BOTH choices, not what
I think might be correct

you do that to cover your butt

Posted By: daniel_depetro

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 03:53 AM

Quote:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7571/

back for the holidays

That is the best thing I have ever watched that someone made, period!

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

you must just look at pictures and don't read anything Dave has stated that is they way they done things back in the 60s. he has said many times after testing and solving many vibration and drive train issues he found it not to be correct in his opinion. he now recommends setting of of the motor/tranny center line. nice try though. it must really make you think also take a look, the motor/tranny center line is on the same line as the drive shaft......

Wow!!, How did I miss this thread

All of Dave Morgans pics Shows a desired "Parallel driveline angle."

In the pics it shows that the tranny centerline and pinion centerline are on the Same plane.

In That case 'YES: you can set your Pinion angle Off the Driveshaft Alone for a optimized U jount function.

For the most part in the real world thats not the case. In the Real world if you set Pinion angle off the driveshaft Alone, Its a Crapshoot.

You Have No Idea what your True Pinion Angle is!

Now,Does That really Matter

Ahhhh?? Yeah It could Be! Universal jounts are Forgiving.

But heres the Best Point I can Make!!

Universal Jounts Function Best with the Least amount of Friction and also occilation at a Parallel angle.

If your measuring Pinion angle off the Driveshaft alone, your measuring it Blindly.

I think its Time That Once and for all We ALL understand

HOW Universal Jounts Work!!

There is Vidieo on this. They Want a parallel plane. Pure and Simple.

Even Dave Morgan Agrees

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:16 AM

Quote:

My head hurts....anybody have any asprin

anyone got a link to the last PA love fest? I forget who does it which way.

Attached picture 5674698-ist2_4887521-aspirin-bottle.jpg

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better , my old dusty 1985 dave morgan chassis tuning manual comes out of retirement, maybe this is the "data" he was referring to.......hmmmmmmm

you must just look at pictures and don't read anything Dave has stated that is they way they done things back in the 60s. he has said many times after testing and solving many vibration and drive train issues he found it not to be correct in his opinion. he now recommends setting of of the motor/tranny center line. nice try though. it must really make you think also take a look, the motor/tranny center line is on the same line as the drive shaft......

Tony if you notice that the drive line is in line
in that pic... same way I set up my chassis stuff,
then I dial in the pinion angle on the drive shaft
just like the pic, which gives the front and rear
U-joints just a bit of angle for lube purposes

with that pic it further proves my point. you could pull that shaft out and still set your angle

Actually Tony if you look at the pic, that one is
set up INCORRECTLY... if you notice that the front
joint is in line BUT the rear still has the pinion
angle on it... you want BOTH joints to be in line
while under load... in the case of the pic, as the
pinion rotates up it will pull the rear into line
but the shaft will move upward moving the front joint
off of the same line.... when I set up my chassis/engine
I use a laser that I made up to fit in the rear main
of the engine and set the engine and pinion all in
line.... then rotate the pinion down which will give
BOTH joints movement for lube while not under full load

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:02 AM

Quote:

you want BOTH joints to be in line
while under load...

.... then rotate the pinion down which will give
BOTH joints movement for lube while not under full load

if you have everything inline with no misalignment the ujoints do not move, just spin with the crank/driveshaft/pinion leaving the needle bearings stationary. That creates point contact between the roller and shaft causing flat spots under load. For the needle bearings to roll you need working angles and the front and rear should cancel each other out to maintain constant velocity. IMO you want a small equal but opposite working angle under load to work the ujoints. when the working angles are to far off is when you have driveline vibrations due to the different velocities in the ujoints. flame away.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

you want BOTH joints to be in line
while under load...

.... then rotate the pinion down which will give
BOTH joints movement for lube while not under full load

if you have everything inline with no misalignment the ujoints do not move, just spin with the crank/driveshaft/pinion leaving the needle bearings stationary. That creates point contact between the roller and shaft causing flat spots under load. For the needle bearings to roll you need working angles and the front and rear should cancel each other out to maintain constant velocity. IMO you want a small equal but opposite working angle under load to work the ujoints. when the working angles are to far off is when you have driveline vibrations due to the different velocities in the ujoints. flame away.

No I'm not gonna flame away but I really dont think
you (at least me) get it 100% in line but I try to,
and I still have the same joints in it since I built
the car(both times) without any sign of wear or
flatting.... but then again I dont make much power

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:28 AM

it may see that perfectly inline scenario somewhere during launch/acceleration but with the dynamics of the rear suspension it's not staying there for long. so what does that mean in the big picture? My guess and I have talked to Monte in PM's during the last PA love fest and he agreed (I think? don't mean to put words in his mouth) that as long as we're close that's good enough. IMO as long as we keep the working angles within a degree of each other we are good to go.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:29 AM

There is always Dynamic movement in the joint, dont worry about the needle bearings NOT rolling.

They will, Try to Stop it from happening

mike

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:40 AM

Quote:

it may see that perfectly inline scenario somewhere during launch/acceleration but with the dynamics of the rear suspension it's not staying there for long. so what does that mean in the big picture? My guess and I have talked to Monte in PM's during the last PA love fest and he agreed (I think? don't mean to put words in his mouth) that as long as we're close that's good enough. IMO as long as we keep the working angles within a degree of each other we are good to go.

I would have to agree .... the launch sees the
greatest load so thats when I HOPE its in line but
as torque replenishes it isnt in line any longer

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:45 AM

I actually asked Monte if he had ever mapped the pinion angle during a full run. His reply was basically why if your not having problems.

maybe Tony can have Dave have racepak hook him up with the proper sensors to install on different suspension/power cars to see what it really does.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 06:46 AM

THIS POST IS FOR DRAG RACING, TRACK ONLY CARS......One more time for those who came late to the party. A perfectly straight driveline, eats the least power and is the reason that tube chassis cars are set up and built as they are, to be as close to that as possible. As drag racers, that is what we want, the absolute least loss of power. Your transmission output is where it is in most cars and you can't move it. For a given ride height, your front joint has an angle that can be changed very little, so you deal with it. Your rear angle however can be dealt with, by raising or lowering the pinion. If our goal is the least power loss, that means we want the driveline to be as straight as possible "UNDER POWER". So we guess, at about where we think the pinion will be, "UNDER POWER", taking into account suspension deflection, and set the shaft to pinion angle, to achieve as straight a driveline angle as we can, while "UNDER POWER". Now this is strictly a guess, as suspension is dynamic during the entire run, meaning it is NOT STATIC and is constantly changing. Equal joint angles, parallel center line planes and all that other crap, go straight out the window when you drop the hammer, because as the suspension moves, it is never in that spot again. Now if you go to the trouble to do all that stuff, she may be super smooth while you are towing or idling back up the return road and well yeah, I guess that may be the most important thing to some, but just not me. If it rides around the pits and don't throw the shaft out, it is good enough. Where it is going down the track is what counts and me personally, I want that to be as close to a straight line as I can get it.

Monte

Notice, this post was made without the expressed written consent of Quicktree or Dave Morgan and does not express their views. These opinions, are only those expressed by the poster, and as such, said opinions are not to be taken as gospel and are only intended for informational purposes

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 07:32 AM

Quote:

I actually asked Monte if he had ever mapped the pinion angle during a full run. His reply was basically why if your not having problems.

maybe Tony can have Dave have racepak hook him up with the proper sensors to install on different suspension/power cars to see what it really does.

I think he plans on doing that at some point.

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 11:47 AM

Quote:

Notice, this post was made without the expressed written consent of Quicktree or Dave Morgan and does not express their views. These opinions, are only those expressed by the poster, and as such, said opinions are not to be taken as gospel and are only intended for informational purposes

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 12:45 PM

"I think he plans on doing that at some point."
That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though

Posted By: Blown71X

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 01:09 PM

Attached picture 5675069-deargodmakeitstop_640.jpg

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 02:28 PM

I have a hunch the reason many people believe in both methods is simple. The driveshaft to pinion measurement is seldom wrong due to the fact that most cars are built right to start with, with the shaft and engine centerline very close to right. Secondly, it takes a fare amount of improper angle to produce real problems with our type of equipment. The torque converter acts as a cushion, the tires act as a cushion.
I got my driveshaft education in the 60s , on a piece of equipment that would tear itself apart if you didn't get it close, or right.
A single U joint if run at an angle, and run at a steady speed, will produce a faster/slower motion twice per revolution. It is zero difference to very little at low angles, but grows rapidly as the angle gets further from correct. That is why they phase u joints, and why there are such things as constant velocity Ujoints

(shame on me, I just couldn't stay out of it!

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:02 PM

Quote:

I have a hunch the reason many people believe in both methods is simple. The driveshaft to pinion measurement is seldom wrong due to the fact that most cars are built right to start with, with the shaft and engine centerline very close to right. Secondly, it takes a fare amount of improper angle to produce real problems with our type of equipment. The torque converter acts as a cushion, the tires act as a cushion.
I got my driveshaft education in the 60s , on a piece of equipment that would tear itself apart if you didn't get it close, or right.
A single U joint if run at an angle, and run at a steady speed, will produce a faster/slower motion twice per revolution. It is zero difference to very little at low angles, but grows rapidly as the angle gets further from correct. That is why they phase u joints, and why there are such things as constant velocity Ujoints
(shame on me, I just couldn't stay out of it!

why? you are absolutely correct in my opinion. but you can see my opinion doesn't mean much

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:03 PM

Quote:

"I think he plans on doing that at some point."
That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though

why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:06 PM

Quote:

you wouldn't have anything to do if it stopped

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:37 PM

"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"

My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"I think he plans on doing that at some point."
That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though

why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case

No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless. If the rear simply went up and down and the pinion maintained the same plane, you might have a case, but it does not work like that. And by the way, it would be easy to do. You check the pinion angle with the car static, then raise or lower the car in whatever increments, you want and check it again. You log all these measurements, relative to shock position. Now, when said car is running down the track and you read the shock sensors, you could know the pinion angle at every point on the track. If you had ever looked at any shock graphs, you would realize this number would change during the entire run. I have numerous cars with shock sensors, that I could do this on. Why have I not? Because as Mike said, it is useless information, would tell you absolutely nothing of value.

Monte

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:47 PM

Quote:

"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"

My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike

My thoughts extactly Mike,same as my thoughts about enginneers,they can draw a perfect Azzhole on paper,but can't make it poop.I can make it po a perfect pile everytime.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 04:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"

My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike

My thoughts extactly Mike,same as my thoughts about enginneers,they can draw a perfect Azzhole on paper,but can't make it poop.I can make it po a perfect pile everytime.

i gotta remember that line next time i deal with the engineer on my current project... thanks Bob

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:09 PM

well, that was fun. looks like a new script in the works

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 05:12 PM

Quote:

No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless.

That was my whole point. To show that, so people would see having it exactly perfect all the time is impossible.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 07:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless.

That was my whole point. To show that, so people would see having it exactly perfect all the time is impossible.

Nice picture

Posted By: blown572dart

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 07:58 PM

Wow ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You all have made ROLMFAO

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 08:17 PM

Quote:

Wow ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You all have made ROLMFAO

Jimmy,you have to be sharp and look for all those small subtle nuances that Jim sneaks in.Always look out side the box.

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 08:36 PM

what? who me? never!

there is no answer or resolution to this thread so we might as well have a little fun and keep it light hearted.

Quote:

Always look out side the box.

or sometimes inside the little box......

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 08:39 PM

Quote:

what? who me? never!

there is no answer or resolution to this thread so we might as well have a little fun and keep it light hearted.

As Judge Judy says"he doesn't know if he afoot or on horseback.

See you later,going to shop X-mas party,

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 09:16 PM

you guys are something else

lets look at this as which method has advantages and which does not.

1. setiing off the shaft - does nothing but get the rear ujoint close to 0* at launch. does not aid in preventing vibrations nor does it phase the front ujoint to the rear one. does it have an ET adavantage? possible I guess but so small I bet you couldn't tell the difference.

2. off the motor/tranny center line - has no disadvantages, aids in preventing vibration. phases the ujoints, helps prevent tail housing failure (YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT CALL ROSSLER).

it's a given that the angle changes from start to finish. the question I ask is why would you not choose the method that has more advantages?

lets see, spicer, caltrac, rossler, recommend this. why?

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 09:26 PM

oh man Tony you are a brave soul. Bob said he's going to a party. When he gets back his furr will be all matted, smelling of stale bear and cigars and will unlease the hogpen on you......

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 09:28 PM

Quote:

oh man Tony you are a brave soul. Bob said he's going to a party. When he gets back his furr will be all matted, smelling of stale bear and cigars and will unlease the hogpen on you......

same here, we are heading to a party also

when I get back ask me if I care

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 10:17 PM

Quote:

it's a given that the angle changes from start to finish. the question I ask is why would you not choose the method that has more advantages?

See, right here is where it seems, that you prove the other point. You admit, the angle changes as the car moves, so I fail to see how going to all the trouble to check all that other stuff has any advantage. Any advantage, if there was any to start, is immediately gone, as soon as the car moves. As soon as the rear moves ANY, the tranny and rear are no longer on the same angle plane, if you went to the trouble to set that, because, as stated, the rear swings in an arc. As SOON as that happens, that blows your whole theory, about matching angles and equal joint speed, because those parameters no longer exist. Equal angles and joint speed is important for a road car, that you want to ride super smooth, the joints to last 100,000 miles and so forth. Those type vehicles remain in the same position as where they were set up, 90% of the time and you only worry about road jounce or a heavy load. A drag car is only in the set up position, sitting in the pits, or on the return road. You are not likely to notice a less than smooth ride, or throw the shaft out, while towing or driving the car here.

Monte

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/18/09 10:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

it's a given that the angle changes from start to finish. the question I ask is why would you not choose the method that has more advantages?

See, right here is where it seems, that you prove the other point. You admit, the angle changes as the car moves, so I fail to see how going to all the trouble to check all that other stuff has any advantage. Any advantage, if there was any to start, is immediately gone, as soon as the car moves. As soon as the rear moves ANY, the tranny and rear are no longer on the same angle plane, if you went to the trouble to set that, because, as stated, the rear swings in an arc. As SOON as that happens, that blows your whole theory, about matching angles and equal joint speed, because those parameters no longer exist. Equal angles and joint speed is important for a road car, that you want to ride super smooth, the joints to last 100,000 miles and so forth. Those type vehicles remain in the same position as where they were set up, 90% of the time and you only worry about road jounce or a heavy load. A drag car is only in the set up position, sitting in the pits, or on the return road. You are not likely to notice a less than smooth ride, or throw the shaft out, while towing or driving the car here.

Monte

well I agree with that but why not if it doesn't hurt anything? like I said rossler has solved many tailshaft and tranny problems (according to them) by doing it this way. if there is no down fall why not? does a 4 link cars rear travel as much as a leaf spring car? you are the expert not me but in my tiny mind (according to BG

) it just seems like a better way. and why do the guys I mention recommend this method?

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 12:39 AM

On a 4 link doesnt the pinion if its set straight/level stay on that same Level plane through out its arc travel.

Im no expert but I think it does. If thats the case then it may be the perfect example to use to explain the pinion angle based off the tranny centerline method.

If it is the case, That the pinion stays at the same angle through out the rear ends arc on a 4 link.

.Only moving up and down on the same Level plane. The Pinion angle is Not changing.

Only the driveshaft and joint angles have changed, not the pinion angle from parralel.

Just a Friendly rear end pinion angle talk

mike

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 12:44 AM

Quicktree, face it already, your way sux

Posted By: moparniac

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 12:57 AM

here is a car quiktree setup? seems to hook pretty good to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjE-wHsjZ_E&feature=related

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 07:24 AM

Quote:

I have a hunch the reason many people believe in both methods is simple. The driveshaft to pinion measurement is seldom wrong due to the fact that most cars are built right to start with, with the shaft and engine centerline very close to right. Secondly, it takes a fare amount of improper angle to produce real problems with our type of equipment. The torque converter acts as a cushion, the tires act as a cushion.
I got my driveshaft education in the 60s , on a piece of equipment that would tear itself apart if you didn't get it close, or right.
A single U joint if run at an angle, and run at a steady speed, will produce a faster/slower motion twice per revolution. It is zero difference to very little at low angles, but grows rapidly as the angle gets further from correct
(shame on me, I just couldn't stay out of it!

Im glad you jumped in

mike

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/19/09 10:35 AM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 12:46 PM

Quote:

did I miss anything important

yes, start from the beginning

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 05:48 PM

Quote:

On a 4 link doesnt the pinion if its set straight/level stay on that same Level plane through out its arc travel.

Im no expert but I think it does. If thats the case then it may be the perfect example to use to explain the pinion angle based off the tranny centerline method.

If it is the case, That the pinion stays at the same angle through out the rear ends arc on a 4 link.

.Only moving up and down on the same Level plane. The Pinion angle is Not changing.

Only the driveshaft and joint angles have changed, not the pinion angle from parralel.

Just a Friendly rear end pinion angle talk mike

No, it does not stay on the same plane.
The only way that could happen, is for the rear to be on an up and down slide, it is not, it swings in an arc, just like a ladder bar, just like a leaf spring.

I know some of you just think I am busting Tony's stones for fun, and while that may be part of it

that is not the only reason. I use the method I do, because I know it works and have had good successs with it. I don't use his method, because as pointed out, you go to all that trouble and as soon as the car moves, all that is out the window. I have always raced cars, but I have not always made a living working with race cars. One of the jobs I had for nearly 20 years, was as a Millwright. Now if you don't know what that means, it means I worked as an industrial maint mechanic and my crew was in charge of setting and aligning equipment in a very large Monsanto plant. My crew was considered one of the best at what we did and worked all the big jobs at that plant and even traveled to others to set equipment and align it. I have set and aligned huge pieces of equipment and drivelines, some bigger than most houses. We used dial indicators to align the couplings on pumps, motors and huge industrial drivelines, that have alignment tolerances in the .001, so I know how important driveline angles and proper alignment can be. That also allows me to understand the basics of the driveline in a race car and how really insignificant most of these pinion angle discussions are. There is nothing even remotely precise about the driveline in a race car and therefore, much time spent worrying about the pinion angle, is time wasted.

Monte

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/19/09 06:00 PM

Posted By: Mopar Grandpa

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 06:23 PM

Quote:

so I then do need all these tools to do the job also

Don't forget your auger! Every good mechanic has at least one.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 07:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

On a 4 link doesnt the pinion if its set straight/level stay on that same Level plane through out its arc travel.

Im no expert but I think it does. If thats the case then it may be the perfect example to use to explain the pinion angle based off the tranny centerline method.

If it is the case, That the pinion stays at the same angle through out the rear ends arc on a 4 link.

.Only moving up and down on the same Level plane. The Pinion angle is Not changing.

Only the driveshaft and joint angles have changed, not the pinion angle from parralel.

Just a Friendly rear end pinion angle talk mike

No, it does not stay on the same plane.

The only way that could happen, is for the rear to be on an up and down slide, it is not, it swings in an arc, just like a ladder bar, just like a leaf spring.

Just to be Clear are you reffering to the Axels plane or the Pinions plane??

The above statement appears to refer to the axels plane and is 100% correct as stated. It does swing in an arc and not a single plane.

My Question is while the axel is swinging in its Arc will the Pinion maintain its set horizontal plane by the design of the 4 link bars.

While the axel swings down the Bars lengths/angles rotate the said axel to maintain its original pinion angle.

Asked another way, If we hang a Angle finder on the Pinion and swing the axel through its arc.

Will the angle finder on the Pinion read the same throughout that arc? Or at least nearly the same to within a degree?

I thought the 4 link bars were designed in part to do just that. mike

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 10:09 PM

No, the pinion angle will change

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 10:20 PM

ok so let me get this straight. other than it taking a little more time to do there are no downfalls to setting it off the motor tranny center line?

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/19/09 11:05 PM

Quote:

ok so let me get this straight. other than it taking a little more time to do there are no downfalls to setting it off the motor tranny center line?

Why screw with the tranny when it is in a fix position when all you need is to adjust your rearend by shims or turning the bars.Even street cars and 4X4 never change the fixed drivetran componants,just adjust the pinion angle to the driveshaft.Why kill a cow,gut it ,butcher it,process it,wrap it freeze it,store it,thaw it unwrap it and cook it when just go to the supermarket,buy it cook it and eat it,or better yet lets all go to the Texas Roadhouse and have one of those little "cowgirls" serve up us steaks.What sounds better and is easier?Moooving along

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 12:45 AM

Quote:

No, the pinion angle will change

In relationship to what, Your statement alone doesnt answer the question.

It Will change in relationship to the Driveshaft!

But will it change from its original preset angle??

Thats The Question I want answered, even if it takes a Millright to do it.

mike

Posted By: mr2performance

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:56 AM

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 04:09 AM

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:08 PM

Shame on you Mike for trying to relate actual REAL world experience against books, videos and theory. What in the world could you be thinking?

...and to top it off, you work on those slow, sluggish and barely able to wobble down the track SS/AH cars...how dare you interject!...sorry...couldnt help it...this one is just too much.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:12 PM

Quote:

Shame on you Mike for trying to relate actual REAL world experience against books, videos and theory. What in the world could you be thinking? ...and to top it off, you work on those slow, sluggish and barely able to wobble down the track SS/AH cars...how dare you interject!...sorry...couldnt help it...this one is just too much.

so you have no problem putting down caltrac,rossler,spicer, Dave Morgan, and many more?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:18 PM

still not one single explanation on a reason not to set pinion angle off the motor tranny center line except it may be time consuming

Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:32 PM

I have no experience with Rossler, so no comment there. I DO have experience with CalTrac, Spicer and have both of Morgans books,( the early notebook style and Doorslammers) been to his class. I disagree with some of what he says works. I have no problem saying that their suggestions many times dont work. Caltrac gives you a suggested starting point. Do you think that works the same for a 500HP Stocker iwth 9 inch tire and a 4 speed as it does for a 3000# bracket car with 700HP? Of course not. We have 10's of thousands of runs down the track, and theory doesnt always meet reality. They all may give you what they see as their application, they many times dont work. Race cars are constantly changing, flexing, moving, torquing, thrusting etc. What is set at a static rest doesn not mean that it works at speed or under motion. What I am saying is no matter how many books you read, how many classes you go to, how many videos you watch, real experienced builders, racers, chassis tuners etc, find other ways to make the cars work. What the manufacters often give you is a starting point. It may work, it may not. One of our racers recently fell upon a tune up that everyone said was a complete waste of time, no way could it work, your beating your head against the wall etc etc. Guess what. Fastest pass in class history.BUT, if he listened to the experts, it never would have been tried. So my point is, experience never lies, results never cheat. It is what it is. If Monte, Mike, BG, myself, the man on the moon say something works, then it works. If you oppose that, thats absolutley fine. Your perogative. You recently were tuning your car for your first passes on it correct? I bet you found out some things about tuning your carb and engine during that process? Did you nail your combo right out of the gate beacause of all this reading material? Did you need to ask for some help in tuning it perhaps? Is your car maximized already? I bet not. It takes time, laps and experience. I will listen to the experience first every time. Thats my point.

I said my peace, thats all I'll say, and continue to watch the fun....I got work to do...

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:55 PM

could the mods please rename this thread " Quicktree loses another pinion angle thread " and archive it

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 02:57 PM

Quote:

I have no experience with Rossler, so no comment there. I DO have experience with CalTrac, Spicer and have both of Morgans books,( the early notebook style and Doorslammers) been to his class. I disagree with some of what he says works. I have no problem saying that their suggestions many times dont work. Caltrac gives you a suggested starting point. Do you think that works the same for a 500HP Stocker iwth 9 inch tire and a 4 speed as it does for a 3000# bracket car with 700HP? Of course not. We have 10's of thousands of runs down the track, and theory doesnt always meet reality. They all may give you what they see as their application, they many times dont work. Race cars are constantly changing, flexing, moving, torquing, thrusting etc. What is set at a static rest doesn not mean that it works at speed or under motion. What I am saying is no matter how many books you read, how many classes you go to, how many videos you watch, real experienced builders, racers, chassis tuners etc, find other ways to make the cars work. What the manufacters often give you is a starting point. It may work, it may not. One of our racers recently fell upon a tune up that everyone said was a complete waste of time, no way could it work, your beating your head against the wall etc etc. Guess what. Fastest pass in class history.BUT, if he listened to the experts, it never would have been tried. So my point is, experience never lies, results never cheat. It is what it is. If Monte, Mike, BG, myself, the man on the moon say something works, then it works. If you oppose that, thats absolutley fine. Your perogative. You recently were tuning your car for your first passes on it correct? I bet you found out some things about tuning your carb and engine during that process? Did you nail your combo right out of the gate beacause of all this reading material? Did you need to ask for some help in tuning it perhaps? Is your car maximized already? I bet not. It takes time, laps and experience. I will listen to the experience first every time. Thats my point.

I said my peace, thats all I'll say, and continue to watch the fun....I got work to do...

while I agree with 90% of that there is no need to disrespect any of the people who have different opinions. while I may not have the experience of working with high dollar cars like Monte I do have over 30 years of racing and messing with race cars at a lower level. and yes it does take time and trying new things to get a new car right. when I ask for help I am looking for different opinions and may or may not use them. A different set of eyes often help. and sometimes I forget things I that have worked in the past. just like the carb issue I had. I had solved the same problem years ago with the same motor but got off in one direction that was not working. when Dram suggested a different cam I remembered what it took the first time. so different views are great and I would never put down any of you guys down who have vast experience like yourself. I have watched comments about your service and talked with people and would not hesitate to use them if you were closer.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/20/09 03:11 PM

Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 03:34 PM

No dis-respect meant Tony..just my opinion and feelings, observances. I know you have raced for years, so not meant any other way. I'm involved with lots of cars and just see things from a different perspective in that regard. I am a sponge for information and study lots of these things, and just find that things often work out different on the track. Again, just my thoughts, but no disprespect.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 03:46 PM

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 07:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte

I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte

he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/20/09 08:07 PM

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte

he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth

sign me up for the new book

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:11 PM

Quote:

I have sent the two methods to a group of scientific geniuses .
This is the very same group that did all the global warming research .However at the present time they are snow bound in Copenhagen. When they reply I will post their findings

you know good and well they can't speak english and walk on all 4s

Posted By: dc426

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:13 PM

Holy crap this is worse than one of Edvis's post

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:21 PM

Quote:

Holy crap this is worse than one of Edvis's post

whats wrong with it?

looks like the most popular post on the board to me

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte

he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth

sign me up for the new book

why you already know everything. no need for you to read

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 08:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte

I would like to add for all Mopars cars with the engine and trans in the stock or near stock location that if the angle of the front u-joint is within the specified angle(working range)of the manufacture recommendations or negative of the trans output shaft NO CORRECTION is require.Pinion angle is measured at the rear u-joint and should be adjusted at the rear u-joint to insure it maintains a reasonable alignment within the working range.Many high powered,high torqued performance cars may need additional negative pinion angle at the rear u-joint to ensure that under power and torque loads a reasonable working range is achieved and maintained.The angle will constantly change as the power/torque is increased or decreased.Never change the angle of the front joint buy raising or lowering the trans unless it is beyond the specified working range.If you have to shim the trans mount excessively look for a problem at your rear suspension.This is from a design engineer that claims hands on development on the Luner Rover suspension.So this will hopefully help 85% of the people with mopars with stock style cars that run springs,4links and ladder bars with stock style front suspensions and engine/trans locations.Most the rest of us know how to build race cars or have some professional do it for us.In typical "Barnyard Fashion"85% can now Moooovvvee on with confidence and rest of us can do what we do,while "Chiken Little" can cry that the sky will fall if you don't do the front angle thingee.No Disrespect to any one,just relaying what some wizeazz engineer told me,you all know what I think about engineers

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/20/09 10:11 PM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 10:49 PM

just what we needed a rocket scientist

we have a 4x4 expert already

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/20/09 10:56 PM

Quote:

I have sent the two methods to a group of scientific geniuses .
This is the very same group that did all the global warming research .However at the present time they are snow bound in Copenhagen. When they reply I will post their findings

i dont care what anybody thinks,thats the funniest thing Freds ever said!!!

(mabey the only funny thing he,s ever said)

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 12:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte

has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.

Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte

he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth

sign me up for the new book

why you already know everything. no need for you to read

i need something to laugh at while i'm on the hopper

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 12:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte

I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.

Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.

The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.

But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle.
But just move up and down.

Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.

For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.

For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.

Its obvious both schools of thought work,

but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others

Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party,

have a good one

mike

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 01:02 AM

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others

Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party,

have a good one

mike

Yes that would be the case IF all the bars are equal
length and parallel BUT most all 4-links have un-
equal length bars, so they arc in different lines
even if parallel, now putting that you want to
have a IC point (instead of parallel) you have the
other point to play with....... JMO

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 06:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.

Can you please explain as you understand it. mike

Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte

I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.

Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.

The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.

But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle.
But just move up and down.

Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.

For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.

For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.

Its obvious both schools of thought work,

but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike

The angle of the pinion will only remain stationary, if the bars are the exact same length, mounted on the same exact angle and the upper and lower mounting points on the rear end, are the same distance from axle centerline top and bottom and also front to rear. Since no "Race" 4-link brackets are constructed in this way, it is a moot point. As far as your list of scholars, well, quite a few years ago, all the "best minds in the world" said the world was flat. We see how that worked out.

Monte

Posted By: RT540

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 03:37 PM

I checked how much the pinion angle changed with 2" of travel up and down. Even with 1" of up and down travel, the angle will still change, but not as much as this.
These bars are aprox 20" long, and I was told that this is a drawing of a SW 4-link. I usually have 2-4" longer bars in my own 4-link drawings.
IC is 45" and lower bar is 3� down, just as an example.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 09:49 PM

Thanks RT540 and Monte. Your showing just over 5* pinion angle change at a 4" travel. Thats alot more then I expected with a 4 Link.

Thanks for answering in a way that my thick head could understand it.

mike

Posted By: Mrs Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/21/09 11:02 PM

Quote:

Thanks RT540 and Monte. Your showing just over 5* pinion angle change at a 4" travel. Thats alot more then I expected with a 4 Link.

Thanks for answering in a way that my thick head could understand it. mike

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 12:11 AM

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/22/09 12:18 AM

Posted By: Mrs Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:32 AM

Quote:

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q

I forgot I was on my wifes computer

we are in New Orleans

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/22/09 01:36 AM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q

I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans

OMG !!! I was right

that better

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q

I forgot I was on my wifes computer

we are in New Orleans

Oh well.... you can still tell her hello from me

Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:38 AM

Quote:

let's pray this is not who Mrs QuickTree really is

Tony how did Fred get your picture

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

let's pray this is not who Mrs QuickTree really is

Tony how did Fred get your picture

yea he dables in male porn it looks like

either that or he was looking for a new dress

Posted By: BillyShope

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/22/09 01:45 AM

[quote 540 Dart]

Just dropping in to point out that billions of miles were put on production Fords and Chevies with the "WRONG" side view angles shown at the bottom of the above image. I'm referring, of course, to the once ubiquitous torque tube suspension.

Yes, there will be a very slight speed output variation with each revolution, but it's not the end of the world.

In the case of the Ramchargers' '49 Plymout C/A, every effort was made to make the crankshaft centerline and the pinion shaft centerline collinear. Can't recall the exact driveline angle, but with the valve covers pressed up against the underside of the hood, it was a bunch!
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/23/09 04:54 PM

What happened to Quicktree? Awfully fast to tell me, BG and Mike, that he does not agree with how we do it, but then an original "Ramcharger", Billy Shope backs us up, and all I hear is crickets

Monte

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/23/09 05:02 PM

Quote:

We are in New Orleans

last sited on the west end of Bourbon street, Fred posted a pic.......

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/23/09 10:23 PM

Quote:

What happened to Quicktree? Awfully fast to tell me, BG and Mike, that he does not agree with how we do it, but then an original "Ramcharger", Billy Shope backs us up, and all I hear is crickets

Monte

we are now in Houston Texas

I am not surprised by Billy's comment. you must not be reading again

thats was the train of thought back in the day. since then new ideas and technolgy has popped up

lighten uo Monte life is to short...

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/23/09 11:18 PM

Quote:

What happened to Quicktree? Awfully fast to tell me, BG and Mike, that he does not agree with how we do it, but then an original "Ramcharger", Billy Shope backs us up, and all I hear is crickets

Monte

Not Quicktree, But My interpretation was, is that he was Backing up Quickreets method.

Let me share My Biased interpretation

The Old "Production" cars put Billions of miles on with Pinion angles being incorrect and all over the place.

Like for instance if one would measure pinion angle off the Driveshaft alone.

Sure, There would be some joint occilation but It wouldnt be the End of the World

But on the "Race" Ram Charger, Every effort was made to make and,

I Quote. "The Crankshaft centerline and Pinion centerline collinear!

That Effort included More then Just measuring the pinion angle off the drive shaft from my perspective.

Monte, I already know you emphaticly stated that the a perfectly inline driveline is the best setup for a race car.

I think we all know and want the same things for our drivelines We are all just getting there in different ways.

For me the crank centerline should always be considered and not disreguarded.

If I misinterpreted you Mr Shope

through my Biased eyes. Please feel free to straighten me out.

mike

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 03:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What happened to Quicktree? Awfully fast to tell me, BG and Mike, that he does not agree with how we do it, but then an original "Ramcharger", Billy Shope backs us up, and all I hear is crickets

Monte

Not Quicktree, But My interpretation was, is that he was Backing up Quickreets method.

Let me share My Biased interpretation

The Old "Production" cars put Billions of miles on with Pinion angles being incorrect and all over the place.

Like for instance if one would measure pinion angle off the Driveshaft alone.

Sure, There would be some joint occilation but It wouldnt be the End of the World

But on the "Race" Ram Charger, Every effort was made to make and,

I Quote. "The Crankshaft centerline and Pinion centerline collinear!

That Effort included More then Just measuring the pinion angle off the drive shaft from my perspective.

Monte, I already know you emphaticly stated that the a perfectly inline driveline is the best setup for a race car.

I think we all know and want the same things for our drivelines We are all just getting there in different ways.

For me the crank centerline should always be considered and not disreguarded.

If I misinterpreted you Mr Shope through my Biased eyes. Please feel free to straighten me out. mike

I thought the same thing but still not sure

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 05:25 AM

I was actually just messing with Tony,

because at the end of the day, I just really don't care and am really just irritated at myself, for even getting drawn in to this meaningless discussion again.

So, no, I don't care to try and explain anything....would it matter? I highly doubt it, so everyone have a nice holiday season

Monte

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 05:39 AM

Quote:

I was actually just messing with Tony, because at the end of the day, I just really don't care and am really just irritated at myself, for even getting drawn in to this meaningless discussion again. So, no, I don't care to try and explain anything....would it matter? I highly doubt it, so everyone have a nice holiday season

Monte

i enjoyed it

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 08:26 AM

Quote:

I was actually just messing with Tony, because at the end of the day, I just really don't care and am really just irritated at myself, for even getting drawn in to this meaningless discussion again. So, no, I don't care to try and explain anything....would it matter? I highly doubt it, so everyone have a nice holiday season

Monte

Hey ,Im just a good debater, so it is likely ,Im probably wrong.

But its Christmas,reguardless who is right or wrong. Happy Hollidays and Merry Christmas. mike

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 11:12 AM

I was wrong once,then I found that I was actually right,so I guess I was right I was wrong once.Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 01:40 PM

this thread is giving me a headache.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/24/09 02:42 PM

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 04:04 PM

Quote:

after you guys figure this out would you please post your theories on tne following subject
WHICH CAME FIRST THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG

the hemifredegg

Posted By: barracudabob

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 04:08 PM

So, what's the right way?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 04:10 PM

Quote:

So, what's the right way?

depends on who you ask

Posted By: TS3303

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success - 12/24/09 04:20 PM

Quote:

So, what's the right way?

the right way is what works for your car. IMO leaf spring cars are the hardest.

Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success