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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 506RR]
#544868
12/04/09 07:37 PM
12/04/09 07:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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My E mail is in my sig. 
Send em and I'ld be happy to help. 
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: kruger]
#544870
12/04/09 08:52 PM
12/04/09 08:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Quote:
No email as of yet. 
I just sent him a PM
I'll post it up as soon as I get it
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544873
12/04/09 09:55 PM
12/04/09 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544874
12/04/09 09:57 PM
12/04/09 09:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544875
12/05/09 05:00 AM
12/05/09 05:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 450
Texas
6packattk
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 450
Texas
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Thankyou very much Jim,I was hours taking pictures of my pumps and block as it is now,using flashlight to show inside where it makes the curve and then can`t figure out how to post with my new computer.Files I already had from old puter are not opening on new so I got frustrated and next thing i know it is late I wake up on couch.I so appreciate this site and the knowledge and helpful people on it.Also have someone calling to buy my car,got bad news for em,I have not studied and worked on this thing for 21 years to sell it ,at least not before I see what it does at sea level more than once.I guess I have relation that thinks I should get rid of it.......No way jose!!!  Keep em coming if you got em and edit this and put in tech archives then it doesn`t matter what the persons computer does.Thank you
Last edited by 6packattk; 12/05/09 05:01 AM.
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Plea
[Re: camdog440]
#544892
12/05/09 01:39 PM
12/05/09 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Any opinions on this mod from BBDart....?
http://www.bigblockdart.com/index.php?PH...29886.msg322814
I just read it , I like the idea of drilling thru and oiling it that way, but I'm in the camp of blocking off the feed passage thru the cam. A lot of what's posted in the tech section here is what I posted from the oiling mod recommendation I received years ago from Herb McCandless. Herb recommends reducing the oil hole to all the cam bearings, EXCEPT number 4, to .125. This puts more oil to the crank and rods as you don't need to FLOOD the cam bearings.
The first block I did this to I tapped the passage and installed a loctited set screw with the hole drilled in it. Now I just drill a the hole in the cam bearing 180 from the original hole and have the bearing installed that way. The same should be done to #4 with that mod because as noted #6 and #7 are the rods that usually spin from lack of oil flow, anything done to increase the oil flow to them is a smart mod.
Even though my Hemi has a grooved cam, I think but I'm buying a new cam for it, I'm going to do this mod, block the cam passage and restrict the cam bearing feed hole as I have seen 6 + 7 being the typical to spin in a Hemi because the Hemi sends a lot of oil up top due to it feeding 4 full length rocker shafts.
 take it for what it's worth ...
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Plea
[Re: JohnRR]
#544893
12/06/09 01:26 PM
12/06/09 01:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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I finally got the E mail.  
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Plea
[Re: 506RR]
#544896
12/06/09 04:06 PM
12/06/09 04:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Quote:
Thanks for posting it up Wild Bill! Sure hope it helps some people out!
Any time
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544897
12/06/09 09:32 PM
12/06/09 09:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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Quote:
The discharge passage is only 0.5" dia from the factory, but the block can be 9/16 to 5/8". So I drill it to 9/16" dia, but not all the way to the o-ring groove. There isn't enough room, so I blended it there.
I do all the tricks too but...
I go all the way through the pump housing.. I still have metal for the inner boss but it is very thin. I replace the o-ring with a rubber gasket. I get the gaskets from ACE Hardware.
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 52savoy]
#544899
12/07/09 12:37 PM
12/07/09 12:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
The discharge passage is only 0.5" dia from the factory, but the block can be 9/16 to 5/8". So I drill it to 9/16" dia, but not all the way to the o-ring groove. There isn't enough room, so I blended it there.
I do all the tricks too but...
I go all the way through the pump housing.. I still have metal for the inner boss but it is very thin. I replace the o-ring with a rubber gasket. I get the gaskets from ACE Hardware.
That's a sneaky (nice) variation there. Are the gaskets originally intended as faucet washers or something special?
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Plea
[Re: 506RR]
#544903
12/07/09 04:12 PM
12/07/09 04:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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I acctually didn't resize the first ones you sent so they were easier to read. I
m not home now but I can post them later tonight when I get there.
If you still have them in the original size send me those and I'll see what I can do with those.
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: ZIPPY]
#544904
12/07/09 08:41 PM
12/07/09 08:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The discharge passage is only 0.5" dia from the factory, but the block can be 9/16 to 5/8". So I drill it to 9/16" dia, but not all the way to the o-ring groove. There isn't enough room, so I blended it there.
I do all the tricks too but...
I go all the way through the pump housing.. I still have metal for the inner boss but it is very thin. I replace the o-ring with a rubber gasket. I get the gaskets from ACE Hardware.
That's a sneaky (nice) variation there. Are the gaskets originally intended as faucet washers or something special?
Yeah..they're faucet washers. I use a hole punch made out of 1/2" conduit to cut the center the correct size. I put a dab of gray Permatex in it before putting the new seal in.
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544906
12/07/09 10:27 PM
12/07/09 10:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544907
12/08/09 01:09 AM
12/08/09 01:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder. Patience is the key to it being centered. I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle. 
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: dart_73_br]
#544909
12/08/09 09:53 AM
12/08/09 09:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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I don't know 
He sent me both and to be hinset I didn't really look ath them all that hard. 
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 52savoy]
#544910
12/08/09 10:44 AM
12/08/09 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder.
Patience is the key to it being centered.
I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle.
You might want to get the Milodon adjustable regulator and turn that pressure down some ???
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: dart_73_br]
#544911
12/08/09 02:39 PM
12/08/09 02:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 977
Colorado
506RR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 977
Colorado
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Quote:
Ok,
the SB pictures is duplicated. Is that right ? ....
Sorry about that! Yes, it is the same thing twice. Don't know why I did that. I only have the one page for small block oiling mods. Hope it helps someone out!
Thanks again for posting it up Bill!
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 52savoy]
#544913
12/08/09 05:04 PM
12/08/09 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
68roadrunner
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
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Quote:
I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder.
Patience is the key to it being centered.
I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle.
[/quote
what kind of bearing clearance are you running with it?
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: mopacltd]
#544916
12/09/09 07:30 PM
12/09/09 07:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
Troy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
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....The old rule of thumb is 10 psi. for every 1000 rpm. Now a days it is more like .8 or even .7 for every 1000 rpm. The key is volume, keeping the volume up and the pressure down is the key. Anything over 70 plus psi can cost you 10hp to 15hp easily. We make 1120hp and spin the engine to 8800rpm+.....the engine never sees over 70 psi. and no, it's not a dry sump. 
....there is nothing like driving my 1968 Hemi Dart around town and having people looking at you like you're nuts!!
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: Troy]
#544917
12/10/09 12:02 PM
12/10/09 12:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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Quote:
....The old rule of thumb is 10 psi. for every 1000 rpm. Now a days it is more like .8 or even .7 for every 1000 rpm. The key is volume, keeping the volume up and the pressure down is the key.
Anything over 70 plus psi can cost you 10hp to 15hp easily.
We make 1120hp and spin the engine to 8800rpm+.....the engine never sees over 70 psi. and no, it's not a dry sump.
yeah... I know all about it(decades old formula).... What bothers me about that "rule of thumb", using that logic 10psi at idle is ok. I don't know how you guys feel but I don't want any big block with less than 60psi at idle. I start to sweat when any of my motors have less than 60psi because it usually means bearing problems. Within a reasonable psi, volume means nothing if you aren't getting some pressure to get it where it needs to go.
IMO, That rule of thumb should be revised for maybe... 4000rpm and over?
Just my thoughts.
Fred
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 440Jim]
#544923
12/11/09 01:54 PM
12/11/09 01:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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My thoughts are... There is only a few horsepower difference between having an oil pump with 60psi versus one with say.. 70 or 80psi. Not enough for me to take chances on overheating bearings, journals or rocker gear. Oil pressure doesn't rise at the same rate as rpm. It lags just a tad behind at first because it has to be forced through the oil passages, while the pistons,crank,valvetrain are already spinning fast. If you have close bearing clearances it can be argued either way... for or against it... But not enough oil can lead to overheated oil and burn engine parts. I like to run bearings a little loose(.002-.003) so I want my pressure to be 65-75 psi at idle hot and.. because I don't run over 7000rpm. Aftermarket blocks with revised oil passages don't apply IMO. This is for stock blocks and oil pumps because not everyone needs a WORLD block or Indy or Ray Barton oil pump. I've been building engines this way for ever and ever  and never lost a bearing. ..until recently. But that was because of a mistake I made in bearing choices  . 25psi@900rpm.. you scare me 
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 52savoy]
#544925
12/11/09 03:06 PM
12/11/09 03:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
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My philosophy is pretty much this. ALL the oil has to pass through the pump and the filter...what is the point of a HV pump and a 1/2" pick up if the internals of the pump inlet and discharge are barely 3/8". it's like icreasing your motor displacement without porting your heads? The tricks Jim outlines are essentially those I've been doing for years on stock volume BB pumps and the one I built for the Moparts engine masters 470 motor so many years back now. With a race motor the pump demand requirement should be proportioanl to the RPM increase, pumping 25% more volume at idle and mid range speeds always seemed to me to be a relic of the past where we ran 40 and 50 weight oils and we made up for higher than normal pump demands by increasing the internal volume. As I have found and I think Jims back to back testing bear out) a ported SYSTEM from the pickup through the pump itself is typically way more than adequate and I would argue heats up the oil a lot less than pumping more volume through the same small "stock" pump inlet and outlet orifices. Does it save any power? maybe not enough to measure but it puts that much less stress on the timing chain and cam and in-turn the crank so it's more EFFICIENT if nothing else and as an engineer HP is about efficiency. I used to do all the drilling of the mains but please remember again this is how we used to do it before the super surfactant lower viscosity oils we havwe today.......back 40 yrs ago oil passages were made larger than required partly because engineers correctly factored in oil "coagulation" (like plaque build up in the atreries) over time with the older pariffin based stocks of years past. Now ironically engines suffer oil related failures from orifices designed smaller than prectical because engineers didn't factor for sub-grade "jiffy-lube" oil changes having the opposite effect. FWIW
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Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please
[Re: 52savoy]
#544926
12/11/09 04:20 PM
12/11/09 04:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Quote:
I want my pressure to be 65-75 psi at idle hot and..
What oil temperature and idle rpm is that pressure? And rated oil viscosity?
In my drag race car, I have never seen over 160 F oil temp, and typically it is 120-150 (and that is trying to put heat in the oil). On a street driven car, I believe it could easily be 200+ F and that will change idle (sub 1000 rpm) oil pressure significantly (viscosity vs temp). My street car doesn't have an oil temp sensor, but I can see the idle pressure change after driving 20 minutes.
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Thanks in advance....
