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Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: DartMan380] #535159
11/27/09 09:22 AM
11/27/09 09:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 774
Midland,Tx
wyldebill Offline
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Posts: 774
Midland,Tx
do you have any more details on the "banana"? frame, trans, ect?

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: wyldebill] #535160
11/27/09 10:01 AM
11/27/09 10:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 356
Akron Ohio
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DartMan380 Offline
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Quote:

do you have any more details on the "banana"? frame, trans, ect?




I brought the car home from its home in New York last year. I do not have a garage where I live now so I put it in my grandmas garage and it has since been "buried" in there for the next few months.

Nothing has been changed on the car from the way it was then. The body is all hand laid fiberglass that is sitting on a aluminum frame. There were no markings on the motor that I could see but from what other sources have told me it is a evenrude from 1939 that ran on alcohol. The engine was a pull start and from what I have been told it took many pulls to get it running. The car is only about 7ft long and weighs less then 400 lbs. or so. It is also only about 3 ft high or so.

One guy told me that he pull started my uncle and when he dropped the rope and lit the ignition the car took off around them and they were going 85mph! He said that my uncle couldn't get it to shift into high gear so he shut it off. The offered to pull start him again but the tow car couldn't gain enough speed for the car to fire in high gear. They estimated that they would have to be going around 115 mph for that to happen.

The car now is in decent shape, their is 1 hole (about 6in round) in the lower body. It looks like someone might have kicked it. The chrome pipes for the exhaust are all pitted but I believe they would clean up. Other then that it is dusty and dirty. My uncle was a man of few words, and died suddenly but I have found a guy who lives in CA that knew a lot about the car.

Just another "barn" find right?

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: DartMan380] #535161
11/27/09 12:29 PM
11/27/09 12:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 774
Midland,Tx
wyldebill Offline
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Posts: 774
Midland,Tx
what are your plans for it? you going to try your hand at lsr?

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: wyldebill] #535162
11/27/09 01:14 PM
11/27/09 01:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 356
Akron Ohio
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DartMan380 Offline
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Quote:

what are your plans for it? you going to try your hand at lsr?




The car would never pass tech at the salt now and would require to many updates to do so.

I have mix-feelings as to leave the car just the way it is, or to restore it back to the way it was when it was fresh built. Everyone said the sound of this motor was unique and cant compare to anything else.

I am thinking of putting it into a rat rod type show here in Cleveland this coming spring just to expose it some.

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: DartMan380] #535163
11/27/09 03:53 PM
11/27/09 03:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
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dart4forte Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

what are your plans for it? you going to try your hand at lsr?




The car would never pass tech at the salt now and would require to many updates to do so.

I have mix-feelings as to leave the car just the way it is, or to restore it back to the way it was when it was fresh built. Everyone said the sound of this motor was unique and cant compare to anything else.

I am thinking of putting it into a rat rod type show here in Cleveland this coming spring just to expose it some.




Maybe get it to specs for World of Speed, run 150 MPH class just for nostalgia.

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: Procommuter] #535164
11/27/09 05:11 PM
11/27/09 05:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
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blownzoom440 Offline
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ELYRIA,OH
Quote:

Also that stock body bike record that was mentioned was broken this year at Loring at 264 MPH.



i will let him know. he is proud it lasted this long.
that track is not the salt flats,[apples to apples]
http://www.lta-lsr.com/HOME.htm
thanks again .

Last edited by METAL STORM; 11/27/09 09:57 PM.
Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: blownzoom440] #535165
11/27/09 10:39 PM
11/27/09 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
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blownzoom440 Offline
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Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: blownzoom440] #535166
11/28/09 08:04 AM
11/28/09 08:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 289
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
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Bret Kepner Offline
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Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
I'm not gonna write a book on this but here are a few replies, in order:

Quote:

Is this difficulty something that can be quantified? I know it's hard...but hard in what way. What are the issues, and what are the common mistakes?
Tony




QBird, the most common mistake by newcomers to Bonneville is arriving with the belief that any prior motorsports experience can be applied to racing on the salt.

There are plenty of folks here on MoParts who can offer their knowledge from experience, (and Metal Storm offered some important observations), but here are a few to consider.

1. The Bonneville Salt Flats are at 4200 feet above sea level. Since temperatures above 130 degrees aren't uncommon, corrected elevation is often near or above 10,000 feet. Since the course is five miles long and one cloud can change the elevation 2,000 feet, the air quality can fluctuate drastically during a run.

2. The racing surface also changes drastically. Since the salt can hold water and the ocean bed still responds to the pull of the tides, the surface can range from one similar to a brushed concrete floor with a slight coating of loose kitty litter to the equivalent of driving through two inches of heavy, slushy snow. It's not rare to deal with both types of surfaces at different points on the course during one run. That's why Metal Storm made the very valid point that asphalt records, (Shane Stubbs' bike record at 265.181 mph at Loring, ME), and salt records, (John Noonan's mentioned bike record at 243.960 mph), are almost impossible to compare. Asphalt racers seldom have to worry encountering a total loss of traction at full speed halfway through the course.

3. At Bonneville, weight is free downforce. As Metal Storm mentioned, most cars add weight. He didn't mention, however, that many cars add a TON of weight...literally. From the streamliners to stock-bodied doorslammers, many vehicles are loaded with huge amounts of ballast; vehicle weights of 5,000 to 7,000 pounds are not unusual. Wings and/or spoilers, (where permitted), are added to increase downforce at specific points on the car. Because weight is a benefit at Bonneville, chassis construction is a totally different ballgame and the massive, bulky chassis reflect completely different design theory than in any other motorsport.

4. The simple fact any powerplant must run at full throttle for up to two minutes in the conditions described above is, in itself, daunting and can't be compared to road racing, oval racing or drag racing. Now, think of how muh fun it would be to tune a car in those conditions and for that distance using nitrous oxide and/or nitromethane.

Here's an interesting analogy I posed to a new spectator last August. Currently, there's a whale of a battle between several teams to be the first stock-bodied roadster over 300 mph. I was asked by a drag racing fan why it should be so difficult since most of the teams were using supercharged, nitro-burning engines. My reply was this:

"If you had to push a 5,000-pound roadster with 4,000 horsepower for five miles at full throttle with no wings or spoilers but with a minimum of 530 square inches of totally vertical frontal area, a 100-inch wheelbase and fifteen inches of ground clearance on six-inch-wide tires filled to 120 pounds of air pressure which ride on only four inches of contact patch on a surface which changes from a slippery concrete floor to a muddy cow path in 10,000 feet corrected elevation, how easy do YOU think it would be to run 300 miles per hour?"

I never got an answer.



Quote:

Hey Bret, checking out your site, why no LSR pics?




Dart4forte, I've never taken a camera to Bonneville. That's not why I'm there. I do have the honor of sharing our camp with one of the greatest photographers in salt racing history, (Glenn Freudenberger), who is two years away from his fiftieth SpeedWeek.

By the way, you never answered my previous question. Is your E/Production Pickup buddy Roy Scroggins?



Quote:

Can you name some of those reasons there are no FEDīs running at Bonneville?




Nutcracker, the entire FED chassis concept is basically invalid at Bonneville. The light weight, the massive weight transfer, the total lack of aerodynamics are just completely wrong for the task at hand.




Quote:

Bret - Haven't heard the story on how the car got its name




Dave, I'm not sure you're old enough to "get it".
In the '60s, there was a huge fad of really silly jokes, including this one:

Q: "What's yellow and writes?"
A: "A ballpoint banana."


You just....uhhh....had to be there, I guess.




Hope this stuff helps but if John Rains can run 303 MPH with a single-turbocharged V6 in an unmodified Firebird that still has power windows, how hard can it BE?

Last edited by Bret Kepner; 11/28/09 08:14 AM.
Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: Bret Kepner] #535167
11/28/09 07:56 PM
11/28/09 07:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 356
Akron Ohio
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DartMan380 Offline
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Akron Ohio
Thanks Bret! When the chance comes I will get the car out and take some detailed pictures of the car.

Here is another picture I found of the car..

You can really tell how short the car is in this one.

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: DartMan380] #535168
11/28/09 08:09 PM
11/28/09 08:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
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blownzoom440 Offline
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
that is sweet!laying below the axle centerline it looks like.

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: Bret Kepner] #535169
11/28/09 10:43 PM
11/28/09 10:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
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dart4forte Offline OP
I Live Here
dart4forte  Offline OP
I Live Here
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
Quote:

I'm not gonna write a book on this but here are a few replies, in order:

Quote:

Is this difficulty something that can be quantified? I know it's hard...but hard in what way. What are the issues, and what are the common mistakes?
Tony




QBird, the most common mistake by newcomers to Bonneville is arriving with the belief that any prior motorsports experience can be applied to racing on the salt.

There are plenty of folks here on MoParts who can offer their knowledge from experience, (and Metal Storm offered some important observations), but here are a few to consider.

1. The Bonneville Salt Flats are at 4200 feet above sea level. Since temperatures above 130 degrees aren't uncommon, corrected elevation is often near or above 10,000 feet. Since the course is five miles long and one cloud can change the elevation 2,000 feet, the air quality can fluctuate drastically during a run.

2. The racing surface also changes drastically. Since the salt can hold water and the ocean bed still responds to the pull of the tides, the surface can range from one similar to a brushed concrete floor with a slight coating of loose kitty litter to the equivalent of driving through two inches of heavy, slushy snow. It's not rare to deal with both types of surfaces at different points on the course during one run. That's why Metal Storm made the very valid point that asphalt records, (Shane Stubbs' bike record at 265.181 mph at Loring, ME), and salt records, (John Noonan's mentioned bike record at 243.960 mph), are almost impossible to compare. Asphalt racers seldom have to worry encountering a total loss of traction at full speed halfway through the course.

3. At Bonneville, weight is free downforce. As Metal Storm mentioned, most cars add weight. He didn't mention, however, that many cars add a TON of weight...literally. From the streamliners to stock-bodied doorslammers, many vehicles are loaded with huge amounts of ballast; vehicle weights of 5,000 to 7,000 pounds are not unusual. Wings and/or spoilers, (where permitted), are added to increase downforce at specific points on the car. Because weight is a benefit at Bonneville, chassis construction is a totally different ballgame and the massive, bulky chassis reflect completely different design theory than in any other motorsport.

4. The simple fact any powerplant must run at full throttle for up to two minutes in the conditions described above is, in itself, daunting and can't be compared to road racing, oval racing or drag racing. Now, think of how muh fun it would be to tune a car in those conditions and for that distance using nitrous oxide and/or nitromethane.

Here's an interesting analogy I posed to a new spectator last August. Currently, there's a whale of a battle between several teams to be the first stock-bodied roadster over 300 mph. I was asked by a drag racing fan why it should be so difficult since most of the teams were using supercharged, nitro-burning engines. My reply was this:

"If you had to push a 5,000-pound roadster with 4,000 horsepower for five miles at full throttle with no wings or spoilers but with a minimum of 530 square inches of totally vertical frontal area, a 100-inch wheelbase and fifteen inches of ground clearance on six-inch-wide tires filled to 120 pounds of air pressure which ride on only four inches of contact patch on a surface which changes from a slippery concrete floor to a muddy cow path in 10,000 feet corrected elevation, how easy do YOU think it would be to run 300 miles per hour?"

I never got an answer.



Quote:

Hey Bret, checking out your site, why no LSR pics?




Dart4forte, I've never taken a camera to Bonneville. That's not why I'm there. I do have the honor of sharing our camp with one of the greatest photographers in salt racing history, (Glenn Freudenberger), who is two years away from his fiftieth SpeedWeek.

By the way, you never answered my previous question. Is your E/Production Pickup buddy Roy Scroggins?



Quote:

Can you name some of those reasons there are no FEDīs running at Bonneville?




Nutcracker, the entire FED chassis concept is basically invalid at Bonneville. The light weight, the massive weight transfer, the total lack of aerodynamics are just completely wrong for the task at hand.




Quote:

Bret - Haven't heard the story on how the car got its name




Dave, I'm not sure you're old enough to "get it".
In the '60s, there was a huge fad of really silly jokes, including this one:

Q: "What's yellow and writes?"
A: "A ballpoint banana."


You just....uhhh....had to be there, I guess.




Hope this stuff helps but if John Rains can run 303 MPH with a single-turbocharged V6 in an unmodified Firebird that still has power windows, how hard can it BE?





Yes, that would be Smokin Roy!!

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: dart4forte] #535170
11/29/09 09:55 AM
11/29/09 09:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 922
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birdtracker Offline
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Posts: 922
http://blog.buckeyebullet.com/2009/09/record.html
I work with this guy who drives this car. 300 MPH is very impressive. He is a top notch professional driver. After reading the conditions, I am amazed even more. We have another guy at work that tells storys of prep work in wind tunnels and makeshift garages that totally amaze me. Birdtracker

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: birdtracker] #535171
12/01/09 02:03 AM
12/01/09 02:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
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dart4forte Offline OP
I Live Here
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There's a neat article in the latest Hemmings Muscle Machine Magazine on Andy Granatelli and the Studebaker history at Bonneville. Leaned some things I didn't know about the Paxton Super Charger history.

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: dart4forte] #535172
12/01/09 09:05 AM
12/01/09 09:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 356
Akron Ohio
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DartMan380 Offline
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Quote:

There's a neat article in the latest Hemmings Muscle Machine Magazine on Andy Granatelli and the Studebaker history at Bonneville. Leaned some things I didn't know about the Paxton Super Charger history.




The Rodders Journal usually has some good articles on Bonneville from the good old days!

Re: Any Bonneville drivers here? [Re: DartMan380] #535173
12/01/09 02:39 PM
12/01/09 02:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
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dart4forte Offline OP
I Live Here
dart4forte  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,117
Mesa, Arizona
Quote:

Quote:

There's a neat article in the latest Hemmings Muscle Machine Magazine on Andy Granatelli and the Studebaker history at Bonneville. Leaned some things I didn't know about the Paxton Super Charger history.




The Rodders Journal usually has some good articles on Bonneville from the good old days!





Yeah, I kinda like the nostalgic slant toward LSR.

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