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Hey Monte, in your spare time, it'd be very interesting to test a 4 link car like this.......Put the IC on the anti-squat line, make three passes...........then take OFF the shocks and make three more passes and see what it does.........Those that claim that the IC needs to be on the anti-squat line also say that shocks don't do anything and aren't even needed on the rear because the body of the car is neither seperating or squatting.......(if the track is flat, but that's another story)..........

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As far as taking the shocks completely off, I don't think so. That would not be safe nor smart, plus, how you going to hold the car up........

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.........I know where you get this stuff Wayne, I read it, but I am not buying it all.

Monte

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Yeah, Billy stuff is interesting.......but he probably hasn't tuned a suspension on a race car since the High and Mighty........

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plus, how you going to hold the car up.

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Is this a trick question? Shocks don't hold the car up. The springs do. If you remove shocks from a car at rest, the car doesn't fall down.

Wayne has an excellent point - if your IC is exactly on your resultant vector then the rear shocks don't do anything at all. The springs aren't compressing or decompressing.

That is until you hit that nasty pothole in the track and then bazoing-oing-oing-oing-oing-oing...

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plus, how you going to hold the car up.

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Is this a trick question? Shocks don't hold the car up. The springs do. If you remove shocks from a car at rest, the car doesn't fall down.

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How many 4-link race cars you seen that don't have coilovers.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The coil part of the coilover is what holds the car up. If you surgically remove the shock from the coilover, leaving the coil intact, the car is not going to fall down. The coil is the spring.

Anyhoo - you still need shocks anyway. It is wrong to assume the IC is in a fixed spot relative to the anti squat line, regardless of what suspension you have. Things like tire stacking, chassis flex, etc will change it. So you couldn't get rid of the shocks anyway. But in theory if you could magically force the IC to stay on the anti squat line and the track was perfectly flat then you wouldn't need shocks. Heck, you wouldn't need springs either - solid metal bars welded from the axle to the body would do.

Just to be clear, I totally with you, Monte. I am just . Everything you've said is and I'm not with you. I'm all and we should have a one day.

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Scot, I have never had a 60' better than 1.54.
I was 1.60 before but I always had tire spin off the line. Now I am limited by horespower.

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Nice car . Is it still spinning off the line? Was the 1.54 spinning with the new rear suspension?

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No spin at all. And Thank You

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Hey Monte, in your spare time, it'd be very interesting to test a 4 link car like this.......Put the IC on the anti-squat line, make three passes...........then take OFF the shocks and make three more passes and see what it does.........Those that claim that the IC needs to be on the anti-squat line also say that shocks don't do anything and aren't even needed on the rear because the body of the car is neither seperating or squatting.......(if the track is flat, but that's another story)..........

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sorry i'm late to the party here, but i want to try and clear up some suspension misconceptions. The Instant Center of a suspension group is the point where suspension rotates around. What this means, is each type of suspension has to be evaluated differently. On a leaf spring car it is the front spring perch. On a ladder bar setup it is the front mounting point of bar. Now, on a 4 link car its an imaginary point where if you were to extend line through each suspension, it would be where the 2 intersect. Because of this you can get adjust the instant center to about anywhere you want on an adjustable 4 link. The Caltracs is a band aid fix, and in my opinion it has its uses, but because its limited adjustability its not maximizing the potential of the vehicle. Now I dont know who dug up the Anti-Squat info, Anti-squat is not a line from the CG to the contact patch, but its close to that, its a line from where the horizontal component intersects intersects a verticle line drawn through the front tire drawn through the rear contact patch. That line is 0 for anti squat, and 0 for squat. This means that the suspension will not lift the chassis, or the axle under torque. If the instant center of the suspension is above this line it has anti squat, which means it will try and lift the chassis under torque, if its below this line, it will lift the axle causing squat. Now we have to consider the dynamics of weight transfer next, when a car accelerates the horizontal compenent of G the accleration, moves the CG back so because of the different acceleration vector of gravity, its moving more weight to the rear tires, which will compress the suspension. Any time a spring moves, it must have a shock on it, because a spring will naturally want to resonate, the shock 1, controls the oscillation of the spring, and 2 also controls, the speed at which the spring and compress, and expand. So just because a car lowers in the rear doesnt necessarily mean its squatting. In the ideal launch, you want as much energy used to move the car forward, Not up, and not to move the suspension, and definiately not wasted at excess tire spin. So you have to balance the suspension to move forward as fast as it can, while still putting enough downward force on the rear tires. Anyways I wrote this quickly, and will add more later, I just wanted to clear up some suspension myths I noticed on here.

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Seve is my hero

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Scott!

Man, it's great to hear from you. I have wondered about you off-and-on for a while now, but had lost my contact information for you. Let's keep in touch/
The other fellow is correct and for the reasons he said. The success of the Cal-Trac bar is defined in a science known as kinimatics (the study of links). Any dirt track racer will tell you that if you want more bite coming out of a corner, you need to increase the upper angle of the lower bar on a fourlink. From an IC point of view, this is explined by the fact that the IC is moved upwards and rearwards. By changing the angle of the Cal-Trac bar, the lower bar pushes up against the chassis and therefore downwards against the housing. I did not know of these effects when you and I were together and it's been an upgrade to my seminar presentation.

Dave Morgan

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As far as the Caltracs go they do have the ability to change the IC,IMO. Sure the front eye spring mount remains the same and fixed, and its a single point.

But the two seperate contact points of the front swivel, upper{spring] and lower[bar] gives it the abilty to change the IC,IMO.

It reacts to the car,IMO like a Mini 2 point, 4 link, and I mean Mini. It also stiffens up that front segment a bunch. All in all the Caltrac setup is not a bad design and works great for alot of 9, 10 second combos.

Sure its not nearly as good as a 4 link or the triangulated system, but I wouldnt hesitate to use it.

mike

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Then why does it work on my 10/28" tire car, in the 8's, and some other cars I now

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As far as the Caltracs go they do have the ability to change the IC,IMO. Sure the front eye spring mount remains the same and fixed, and its a single point.

But the two seperate contact points of the front swivel, upper{spring] and lower[bar] gives it the abilty to change the IC,IMO.

It reacts to the car,IMO like a Mini 2 point, 4 link, and I mean Mini. It also stiffens up that front segment a bunch. All in all the Caltrac setup is not a bad design and works great for alot of 9, 10 second combos.

Sure its not nearly as good as a 4 link or the triangulated system, but I wouldnt hesitate to use it.

mike

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Then why does it work on my 10/28" tire car, in the 8's, and some other cars I now

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Hey,Im not running down the Caltracs!! Where did you get that from Maybe from the word [nearly] I didnt mean to take away anything from the Caltrack design. I like it!


My intent was to find out if the Caltrac design {does or does not} have any ability to change the IC by its Single 2 point lower bar adjustment.

IMO I think it does, or did. But now Im unsure. Monte says no, and as I interpreted Dave Morgans response in Scotts thread as it does.

But Scott replied back with his interpretation that both Dave and Monte are in agreement, that it doesnt.

So I dont know But I have Nothing against Catracs. I have nothing but up for them, mike

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As far as the Caltracs go they do have the ability to change the IC,IMO. Sure the front eye spring mount remains the same and fixed, and its a single point.

But the two seperate contact points of the front swivel, upper{spring] and lower[bar] gives it the abilty to change the IC,IMO.

It reacts to the car,IMO like a Mini 2 point, 4 link, and I mean Mini. It also stiffens up that front segment a bunch. All in all the Caltrac setup is not a bad design and works great for alot of 9, 10 second combos.

Sure its not nearly as good as a 4 link or the triangulated system, but I wouldnt hesitate to use it.

mike

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Then why does it work on my 10/28" tire car, in the 8's, and some other cars I now

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Hey,Im not running down the Caltracs!! Where did you get that from Maybe from the word [nearly] I didnt mean to take away anything from the Caltrack design. I like it!


My intent was to find out if the Caltrac design {does or does not} have any ability to change the IC by its Single 2 point lower bar adjustment.

IMO I think it does, or did. But now Im unsure. Monte says no, and as I interpreted Dave Morgans response in Scotts thread as it does.

But Scott replied back with his interpretation that both Dave and Monte are in agreement, that it doesnt.

So I dont know But I have Nothing against Catracs. I have nothing but up for them, mike

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My bad

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WOW..... this is really deep... squate this, dampen that... it makes me dizzy

Now which suspension system is best for stopping my head from spinning?

Dallas

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If you find it PM me . I can see what Monty is saying about the pivot on the Cal-Tracs and the IC not changing. But, how does the IC change on a four link? The bars are only moving up and down, the mounting point is not moving, it's welded in the car. It all seems to be theory to me. The Cal-Tracs have a single mounting point but so does the four link, the spring eye for the Cal-Trac and the front bracket on the four link.

I'm probably way out in left field on this and by no means an expert. Oh, I have Cal-Tracs on my pig .

This the kind of thread I like to read, hopefully I can learn something .