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600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas-UPDATED PICS*****
#490326
10/07/09 02:50 AM
10/07/09 02:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
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OP
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Here is the long and the short of it: Guy brought me a 440 cid (4" crank and 4.180 bore)sb mopar with Indy cnc -2 heads, 48° lifter bores and pump gas chugger to coax more HP out of it than the previous builder got (at Westech none the less). So we were supposed to just remove the heads and hopefully find a problem with the flow or whatever. What we found was a laundry list of things done improperly or not done at all. It made 570HP and 530's TQ before we got it, and that was with ridiculous water temps (80°!) and electric water pump (that the customer will not use). So after some debating on what to do, we decided to go ahead and fix all the problems (like out of round bores that had taper as well), infact there were so many problems it'll take me waaaaay too long to list them. The customer had chose his own cam, which was Comp MM lobe on the intake and a FL on the exhaust (251-255 @ .050) on a 108 lca and supposed to be advanced 4° but was only sitting 2° advanced. Keep in mind this is to be a "street" car that will see highway driving and possible distance driving as well as in-town cruising. He did use Schubeck lifters but his cam was showing wear (most likely from metal in the oil)on the lobes so even though I thought the cam choice was decent for a regular guy not an engine builder, we could not use that cam. So I spec'd him a cam that would be a little better for longevity using FL lobe on the intake and a tight lash lobe on the exhaust (25-259 @.050 on a 107lca and advanced 6°). Also keep in mind the customer wanted peak HP to be as close to 6000rpm as possible and peak TQ to be as low as possible. Yes the 230 cnc heads IMO were wrong, but he'd already spent a ton of coin on this engine so we made do with what we had. Now thinking that I could save him some money but using EDM Comp lifters and let him sell the schubecks I chose to use comp's lifters for this build. We had the customers carb (950 annular QF) and my 1000HP holley, plus we tested his Indy intake that had been ported against an Eddy victor that I ported. Now at 440 cid, it looks like the Indy had it in the bag....read on!! Using his carb and Indy intake for the first dyno session after getting it back together we had 602HP at 6100rpm and 570TQ at 4600rpm with 476TQ at 3000rpm and 502TQ at 4000rpm. Not bad for the first real pull...then power dropped and we had to pull a valve cover to be sure but yes....flat cam!!!! Sent the parts to Comp and they deemed their lifters for unknown reasons were the cause... Kudo's to them for admitting fault and at least crediting me for the cam, nitriding, and the lifters!! So while this goes on, the customer noted how "nasty" the engine sounded and that he wanted more of a street idle...LOL!! So knowing that changing the cam for the idle will hurt power, the customer decided it was worth it...so we ordered the second cam with 112lca and I advanced it 6° also. Everything else was the same. Best power from 3000-4200 rpm came from the 950 annular QF carb/Eddy intake making 468TQ at 3000rpm and 494TQ at 4000rpm. Best power from 4300rpm and up was the Indy intake and 1000HP carb making 566TQ at 4800rpm and 611HP at 6400rpm. Idle with new cam was 8.5" at 1050rpm vs. old cam at 1100rpm and 5". But the other cam IMO would have made power in the 620's easily and probably hit 580's TQ but we'll never know. Engine combo is: 4.200 Bore 4" crank Indy cnc -2 heads with my VJ and chamber work 10.3:1 (was 10.7 when I got it) Schubeck lifters Comp Ft cam (255-259 @.050 on 112lca) R3 siamesed bore 48° block Ross -16cc pistons Eagle H beam rods 1.65 ratio TD rockers Manton 3/8 pushrods To me this is a prime example of how all the components need to work together and we compromised idle for what I see as a big HP loss. The 950/victor combo only produced 590HP! But it was up over the 1000HP/Indy combo down low by 20HP and 25Tq! The first cam worked like I had hoped and the second cam worked like I thought it would  I expected much more from a large cid small block. We only had so much to work with because the customer had already spent some 13K on this build with someone else...but we did make more power than before and it will live. Altogether we made 29 dyno pulls and no lash changes after we reset them. I'll post some graphs later in the week when I get my other computer working again (hopefully).
Brian Hafliger
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#490327
10/07/09 06:31 AM
10/07/09 06:31 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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It's funny to imagine 600hp isn't impressive sounding these days (because it is very impressive), but considering the $$$ and parts involved,
Man, that customer sure spent a bundle of money to arrive at that 600hp.
Kudos on helping your customer salvage all those high dollar parts...you made definitely made lemonade.
Did the engine come from a well known builder?
If you were given a clean sheet build for this 440-sb, what would you have changed based on the customers goals?
Rant...
I would love to build a small block for my Valiant for weight and ease of install, but I struggle internally when I read about stuff like this.
Not trying to stir the pot, and maybe I am way off, but the Cost vs. Performance ratio seems to always tilt towards building a basic big block.
It's not as sexy, but...couldn't you get similar HP from a stock stroke, solid cammed 440BB with ported RPM heads for half the price? Maybe "Splurge" for ported Indy EZ's a and/or 'Source or eagle stroker crank...
...I guess I just get more inspired when I see the easily attained big block, big power numbers...including some of the BB builds you have posted.
Not trying to totally rain on SB power, there are so many guys on this board that haul-butt with SB power.
Also, it is hard to argue about SB potential when looking at your signature info...one hot runnin' simple 360, 10 second wheel-standing duster.
It is just hard to read about a 440-sb at that $$$per-HP.
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: MattW]
#490329
10/07/09 08:38 AM
10/07/09 08:38 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Why did you think the 230 CNC were wrong?  Matt
i'm curious about that myself. it's not like they're too big for a 440" engine.
i'd also like to see graphs of your very first pull with the first cam you put in it vs. the best pull with the 2nd cam.
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
#490331
10/07/09 11:11 AM
10/07/09 11:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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Quote:
Quote:
Why did you think the 230 CNC were wrong? Matt
i'm curious about that myself. it's not like they're too big for a 440" engine.
i'd also like to see graphs of your very first pull with the first cam you put in it vs. the best pull with the 2nd cam.
Okay.....customer wanted a kind of "engine masters" engine for the street. And he had an engine builder who compete's in the Engine Masters build this for him. However, customer chose the components like the heads, intake, carb, cam, and desired compression.
The builder was responsible for the machine work (which was waaaaaay off), assembly and tuning on the dyno.
Customer wanted as much power as he could get from 2500-6000rpm! I was told the cap was 6000rpm if I could get it. He also wanted a true 600HP and a true 580TQ....that was before he heard the idle of the first cam I chose! After that, he changed his mind about street manners and not needing every ounce of HP and TQ in place of street manners.
I believe that had I been able to start from scratch, I would have chose the 210cc Indy runner, and then shaped/ported it to do what I needed...or start with the -1 head and epoxy the floor up and shape it...either one would have been where I would have started.
Infact, I wanted to do more with these heads, but having spent alot of $$$ already, I was not given that opportunity. What it comes down to is I needed a little less cross section in the intake port than the -2 head has to make my peaks low enough and still make 600HP.
TQ was his big criteria, but he wanted to see 600HP!!
I think if the indy intake had not been fully ported in the plenum, and we had a little different approach I could have met his goals with little trouble. But that's the way it goes!
I'm not posting this 'cause I think it's a great way to make HP or that I'm excited about it, but MAINLY to show how just changing the lobe center can drop power enough that choosing the right cam for the APPLICATION can be KEY to performance.
I will post all that info this weekend, my home computer is the only puter that my camera loads pics on correctly, and I have to do some repairs after it decided to be stubborn and not work like it should...LOL!
Brian Hafliger
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#490333
10/07/09 11:30 AM
10/07/09 11:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Why did you think the 230 CNC were wrong? Matt
i'm curious about that myself. it's not like they're too big for a 440" engine.
i'd also like to see graphs of your very first pull with the first cam you put in it vs. the best pull with the 2nd cam.
Okay.....customer wanted a kind of "engine
masters" engine for the street. And he had an engine builder who compete's in the Engine Masters build this for him. However, customer chose the components like the heads, intake, carb, cam, and desired compression.
The builder was responsible for the machine work (which was waaaaaay off), assembly and tuning on the dyno.
Customer wanted as much power as he could get from 2500-6000rpm! I was told the cap was 6000rpm if I could get it. He also wanted a true 600HP and a true 580TQ....that was before he heard the idle of the first cam I chose! After that, he changed his mind about street manners and not needing every ounce of HP and TQ in place of street manners.
I believe that had I been able to start from scratch, I would have chose the 210cc Indy runner, and then shaped/ported it to do what I needed...or start with the -1 head and epoxy the floor up and shape it...either one would have been where I would have started.
Infact, I wanted to do more with these heads, but having spent alot of $$$ already, I was not given that opportunity. What it comes down to is I needed a little less cross section in the intake port than the -2 head has to make my peaks low enough and still make 600HP.
TQ was his big criteria, but he wanted to see 600HP!!
I think if the indy intake had not been fully ported in the plenum, and we had a little different approach I could have met his goals with little trouble. But that's the way it goes!
I'm not posting this 'cause I think it's a great way to make HP or that I'm excited about it, but MAINLY to show how just changing the lobe center can drop power enough that choosing the right cam for the APPLICATION can be KEY to performance.
I will post all that info this weekend, my home computer is the only puter that my camera loads pics on correctly, and I have to do some repairs after it decided to be stubborn and not work like it should...LOL!
Thanks for the info I thought you were going to say the 230 CNC weren't big enough.  Matt
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: topbrent]
#490335
10/07/09 11:44 AM
10/07/09 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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Quote:
It's funny to imagine 600hp isn't impressive sounding these days (because it is very impressive), but considering the $$$ and parts involved,
Man, that customer sure spent a bundle of money to arrive at that 600hp.
Kudos on helping your customer salvage all those high dollar parts...you made definitely made lemonade.
Did the engine come from a well known builder?
If you were given a clean sheet build for this 440-sb, what would you have changed based on the customers goals?
Rant...
I would love to build a small block for my Valiant for weight and ease of install, but I struggle internally when I read about stuff like this.
Not trying to stir the pot, and maybe I am way off, but the Cost vs. Performance ratio seems to always tilt towards building a basic big block.
It's not as sexy, but...couldn't you get similar HP from a stock stroke, solid cammed 440BB with ported RPM heads for half the price? Maybe "Splurge" for ported Indy EZ's a and/or 'Source or eagle stroker crank...
...I guess I just get more inspired when I see the easily attained big block, big power numbers...including some of the BB builds you have posted.
Not trying to totally rain on SB power, there are so many guys on this board that haul-butt with SB power.
Also, it is hard to argue about SB potential when looking at your signature info...one hot runnin' simple 360, 10 second wheel-standing duster.
It is just hard to read about a 440-sb at that $$$per-HP.
Well in this case I agree that a BB would have been much more cost effective!
I do believe too that had I been the original builder, I would have made more power and probably cost less than what he spent.
The big cost comes from the block mainly, and also the heads/rocker assembly and don't forget the Schubeck's!!
If you built a 440 BB with aftermarket block, Indy cnc ported heads, TD rockers and Schubeck's it would be close in price...but most guys won't build a 440 out of that combo. It'll be more like 500+ cubes making waaaaay more power per dollar!!
But BB's don't fit very nice in A bodies for one, and I think he had high hopes that he could make alot more than 600Hp and 580Tq.
For what it's worth my customer did leave very happy and to my knowledge he'll be back again so that's a good thing 
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#490336
10/07/09 01:43 PM
10/07/09 01:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Seeing the buildup you had there, it'll be interesting to see how the 408 that I'm building at the shop I work at will perform. It's got flat top pistons and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Indy oval port heads that flow in the neighborhood of 325 @ .650 with a rubbed on Indy intake manifold. I'm honestly expecting 575 plus, but I can't remember the specs on the cam and the hydraulic lifters will keep us from making the power upstairs that I think it could make if we had decided to go solid. If anybody's interested, I'll keep you guys posted when it's finished as to what the numbers are.
Last edited by dodgeboy11; 10/08/09 12:16 AM.
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#490337
10/07/09 04:46 PM
10/07/09 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,002
Joplin, Mo
rt66jim
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Posts: 4,002
Joplin, Mo
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Quote:
Seeing the buildup you had there, it'll be interesting to see how the 408 that I'm building at the shop I work at will perform. It's got flat top pistons and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Indy oval port heads that flow in the neighborhood of 325 @ .650 with an unported Indy intake manifold. I'm honestly expecting 575 plus, but I can't remember the specs on the cam and the hydraulic lifters will keep us from making the power upstairs that I think it could make if we had decided to go solid. If anybody's interested, I'll keep you guys posted when it's finished as to what the numbers are.
On that Indy intake check if very closely at the front and back. Mine obstructed the air flow under the carb. It was made so that there was about 1/4" of material hanging out toward the center at the front and rear of the intake opening. Jim
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: rt66jim]
#490338
10/07/09 07:41 PM
10/07/09 07:41 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Seeing the buildup you had there, it'll be interesting to see how the 408 that I'm building at the shop I work at will perform. It's got flat top pistons and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Indy oval port heads that flow in the neighborhood of 325 @ .650 with an unported Indy intake manifold. I'm honestly expecting 575 plus, but I can't remember the specs on the cam and the hydraulic lifters will keep us from making the power upstairs that I think it could make if we had decided to go solid. If anybody's interested, I'll keep you guys posted when it's finished as to what the numbers are.
On that Indy intake check if very closely at the front and back. Mine obstructed the air flow under the carb. It was made so that there was about 1/4" of material hanging out toward the center at the front and rear of the intake opening. Jim
i've seen that numerous times also. half the time the ports are off as much as 3/16" at the heads too. i'm sure Brian or any decent builder would catch they stuff right away though. 
on another note, it sounds like the owner either read too much from a magazine or was swayed by someone that maybe didn't have a good handle on things. hard to tell.
one thing about the wide lobe cams though, the peaks generally are lower, but i wonder how it stacks up for average power. like anything else, it's the total package of parts and machine work that makes the difference between a winner and an also ran. 
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
#490339
10/07/09 07:56 PM
10/07/09 07:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
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Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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DRAM, the first cam with only 1 pull and no tuning head much more avg. power and TQ. The wide lobe centers narrowed the power band alot.
My take on this is the ports need some "action" from the exhaust and in this case it did not get what it wanted.
That was my conscern but I had the customers blessing that at this point he was not worried about what the paper says....I can tell you it makes 100ft. lbs. more TQ than my engine, and on the street that's going to be a handful!!
It's going in a 69 valiant so that should be lots of fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Hafliger
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: Steve Barton]
#490341
10/07/09 09:17 PM
10/07/09 09:17 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
I also am buildind a small block R3 59 deg 4"scat cranck dimond pist 10.7 making 418 cubs.and I plain to through a 150 shot of NOS to it as well. I have been racking my brain on this as well as every one els.
what I have come up with is The edy heads from Hughes fully ported with the Indy intake olso ported. It has been seed that the 360-1 fully ported head would be to big a runner and less throtel responce. I would like to see 650hp. If this combo would work then I would choose a cam and carb to suit.
what do you think. ?
ps this is for the drag strip and a sunny suny once in a wile.
if it's for the dragstrip, why such low compression? your leaving a lot of potential on the table.
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Re: 600+ HP 440 SB Mopar on pump gas.....
[Re: rt66jim]
#490342
10/07/09 09:21 PM
10/07/09 09:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Quote:
Seeing the buildup you had there, it'll be interesting to see how the 408 that I'm building at the shop I work at will perform. It's got flat top pistons and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Indy oval port heads that flow in the neighborhood of 325 @ .650 with an unported Indy intake manifold. I'm honestly expecting 575 plus, but I can't remember the specs on the cam and the hydraulic lifters will keep us from making the power upstairs that I think it could make if we had decided to go solid. If anybody's interested, I'll keep you guys posted when it's finished as to what the numbers are.
On that Indy intake check if very closely at the front and back. Mine obstructed the air flow under the carb. It was made so that there was about 1/4" of material hanging out toward the center at the front and rear of the intake opening. Jim
I noticed that on the rectangle port headed 408 we built last year. I always lay a gasket on the flange and open it up to the line while radiusing the entry. Not too impressed with Indy's as cast anything. Never seen a set of max wedge port window bb mopar heads that wouldn't flow over 280 cfm before. Oh well, it keeps us head porters busy...
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