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Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
#471258
09/17/09 09:09 PM
09/17/09 09:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,377
Tennessee
WyleECoyote
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Tennessee
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Is the anti-collapse spring necessary? The old hose I took off didn't have one and the new hose I bought didn't have one. I hate to put it all together and then read on here next week how necessary it is and then I won't be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't go find one and install it! Thanks for input! Ron 
Wile E. Coyote
Super Genius, Lover of FCA US LLC Products
*************
68 Road Runner (440 4-spd), 71 Superbee (383 slap), 71 Charger 500 (383 4-spd wA/C 1of 182), 72 Imperial, 74 Charger SE (440 sunroof), 84 D350 Crew-cab Dually (440), 75 D300 Dually Tandem (318 4-speed)
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: WyleECoyote]
#471259
09/17/09 09:13 PM
09/17/09 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,548
Norwich CT USA
moparts
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I Live Here
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Norwich CT USA
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It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them. Not any more  Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed. Not the thing that you would want  If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
Tom ,
2011 Ram 3500 C&C Diesel
2009 Challenger R/T
1971 Challenger Conv. 511/4 speed
1970 Challenger R/T 503/727
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: moparts]
#471260
09/17/09 09:18 PM
09/17/09 09:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.
Not any more
Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.
Not the thing that you would want
If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
You can make one by wrapping a peice of wire around a broom stick handle.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#471261
09/17/09 09:34 PM
09/17/09 09:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,522
Orleans, Ontario
moparcanuk
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Quote:
Quote:
It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.
Not any more
Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.
Not the thing that you would want
If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
You can make one by wrapping a peice of wire around a broom stick handle.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: moparcanuk]
#471262
09/17/09 09:44 PM
09/17/09 09:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,679
Va. Beach, Va
69superbee383
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master
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Va. Beach, Va
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Age old debate...
You can use them if you want but if the cooling system is flowing properly it shouldn't collapse. My Coronet had the problem and the radiator core was almost totally blocked. When I replaced the core the new lower hose had no spring and was installed as is. I have had no issues with it sense.
77 Macho Power Wagon LWB factory 440
70 Coronet 440 N code 3 speed
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: moparcanuk]
#471263
09/17/09 09:45 PM
09/17/09 09:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,377
Tennessee
WyleECoyote
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Would coat hanger wire work?
What about "rusting" of the spring?
Wile E. Coyote
Super Genius, Lover of FCA US LLC Products
*************
68 Road Runner (440 4-spd), 71 Superbee (383 slap), 71 Charger 500 (383 4-spd wA/C 1of 182), 72 Imperial, 74 Charger SE (440 sunroof), 84 D350 Crew-cab Dually (440), 75 D300 Dually Tandem (318 4-speed)
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: moparcanuk]
#471264
09/17/09 09:51 PM
09/17/09 09:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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go to a welding shop & ask them for a single piece of stainless welding rod & as said bend it around a broomstick & install it. Turn the ends in toward the middle so there's no chance if it puncturing the wall. A guy said that they are actually used by the factory only to keep hoses from sucking closed when they vacuum fill the cooling systems & others have stated that worn out hoses can suck partly closed in actual use so make/install one & you can move on to other issues & not have to give it a seconds thought.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#471266
09/17/09 10:15 PM
09/17/09 10:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,377
Tennessee
WyleECoyote
OP
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Quote:
I got flamed last time I posted on this subject 
but what RapidRobert said,and for those reasons 
some times a hose is just soft and weak,and "IS" the only problem with the cooling system 
Why'd you get "flamed"?
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: WyleECoyote]
#471267
09/17/09 10:29 PM
09/17/09 10:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
Would coat hanger wire work?
What about "rusting" of the spring?
Yes it would, it just won't last as long. I bet it'll last 5 years with the proper anti freeze mixture.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: moparts]
#471269
09/18/09 12:51 AM
09/18/09 12:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 247
DuPont, Washington
DZJim
enthusiast
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DuPont, Washington
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Quote:
It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.
Not any more
Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.
Not the thing that you would want
If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: DZJim]
#471270
09/18/09 06:59 AM
09/18/09 06:59 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,377
Tennessee
WyleECoyote
OP
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Quote:
Quote:
It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.
Not any more
Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.
Not the thing that you would want
If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.
I'm totally agreeing with your logic - only theory I can come up with is its just one of them things that happens; like the SF bridge twisting in high winds or a straw through a tree in a tornado - it musta happened somehow for all them thar springs to go into lower radiator hoses. 
Wile E. Coyote
Super Genius, Lover of FCA US LLC Products
*************
68 Road Runner (440 4-spd), 71 Superbee (383 slap), 71 Charger 500 (383 4-spd wA/C 1of 182), 72 Imperial, 74 Charger SE (440 sunroof), 84 D350 Crew-cab Dually (440), 75 D300 Dually Tandem (318 4-speed)
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: WyleECoyote]
#471271
09/18/09 07:18 PM
09/18/09 07:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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I have had this happen. I went to the local Murray's and found a universal hose with a spring in it that matched, then I took it out and put it in my Mopar hose.
Best theory I had, some of the repro hoses are pretty soft and they collapse as they heat up, from the internal forces.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: DZJim]
#471273
09/18/09 08:16 PM
09/18/09 08:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
Bill MeLater
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
Quote:
It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.
Not any more
Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.
Not the thing that you would want
If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can
I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.
It's really no different than the light in your fridge, you have to take a ride under the hood at WOT to truely know the answer....Barring that...It's all theory and I challenge you to show me...Video would be nice. P.S. I run a spring 'cuz I ain't gonna take that ride
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: Boise Chall]
#471279
09/19/09 06:46 AM
09/19/09 06:46 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 15,487
Florida
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yep,I got flamed  cause boise chall has a "over heating" problem and I suggested the 1/2 azz "spring in the hose" bandaid fix.. you best go pull that spring back out and warm it up some,it not overheating enuff with it in there say what you want I have seen them suck closed and have had that ride under the hood I wont mention cavitation with mixed matched a/c pullys amd non a/c water pumps and the way it eats the alum wp housing up at sustained high rpms either the shut up option... 
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: Boise Chall]
#471280
09/19/09 06:51 AM
09/19/09 06:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,124
Hunt Valley, Maryland
1fastrunner
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,124
Hunt Valley, Maryland
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Not rying to blow this out of proportion, but he, and many other members were trying to help you. Not actually working on your problem in person isn't the best case scenario. I'd be very thankful they all took the time to help someone they probably never met, and maybe never will. I'm just saying don't burn any bridges, you might need to get over another problem down the road. Jim 
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: 1fastrunner]
#471283
09/19/09 10:02 AM
09/19/09 10:02 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 659
Boise Idaho
Boise Chall
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 659
Boise Idaho
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Quote:
Not rying to blow this out of proportion, but he, and many other members were trying to help you. Not actually working on your problem in person isn't the best case scenario. I'd be very thankful they all took the time to help someone they probably never met, and maybe never will.
I'm just saying don't burn any bridges, you might need to get over another problem down the road.
Jim
I understand that and I let it pass by a few times but supercuda was very persistant and would not let it go. Every time I would post he had the same comment. In my bait post " Massive overheating problem" I said thank you to everybody that helped me I was also trying to get this issue away from this thread so I didn't hijack it.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: Boise Chall]
#471284
09/19/09 10:30 AM
09/19/09 10:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,884
Michigan
MNobody
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master
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Posts: 4,884
Michigan
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I was told by the guy at the parts store that they did away with the springs because they had issues with them working their way into the water pump and damaging it. That kinda tells me that they either didn't need to be there, wern't needed on newer vehicles or solved the collapsing problem another way. It makes sense to me that if the hose is collapsing then the pump might be flowing too much, or the hose is old. A pump can't push water if there's a restriction on the inlet side and can't pull water if there's a restriction on the outlet side i would think but i'm no expert.
Last edited by MNobody; 09/19/09 10:43 AM.
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#471287
09/19/09 01:36 PM
09/19/09 01:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
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Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
Like putting your hand over a vacuum cleaner hose, the forces on the hose are FAR greater than with the hand off.
And the fact that the radiator hose has a much larger area for a vacuum to work on means it doesn't take much to suck it flat... Think about it, you can typically squeeze a radiator hose flat pretty easily, a heater no so much...
Also another thing to consider, there will be no flow when the thermostat is closed so if the engine gets spun up while cold & collapses the hose during that condition now the hose has been weakened slightly so next time it will collapse easier... The spring could have prevented it collapsing the first time...
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#471288
09/19/09 01:57 PM
09/19/09 01:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 247
DuPont, Washington
DZJim
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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DuPont, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Like putting your hand over a vacuum cleaner hose, the forces on the hose are FAR greater than with the hand off.
And the fact that the radiator hose has a much larger area for a vacuum to work on means it doesn't take much to suck it flat... Think about it, you can typically squeeze a radiator hose flat pretty easily, a heater no so much...
Also another thing to consider, there will be no flow when the thermostat is closed so if the engine gets spun up while cold & collapses the hose during that condition now the hose has been weakened slightly so next time it will collapse easier... The spring could have prevented it collapsing the first time...
We're all here to help on another...right?
This got me thinking some more. Vacuum cleaner; I have an old Electrolux canister type. Works good. If I put my hand over the exhaust and stop it, the suction decreases and stops. The impeller/fan/whatchamaycallit is stalled. If there aint't no place for the fluid to go, there aint no fluid gonna move and ain't no hose gonna collapse.
I believe that the thermostat closed simply directs the coolant bypassing the radiator, and does not stop flow through the engine. The water pump impeller would have to be stalled for flow to cease. Ain't like Mopar designed it that way...
My
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: WyleECoyote]
#471289
09/19/09 04:24 PM
09/19/09 04:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
I held off putting my system together after reading a few of these - then I headed here to Orlando to take my wife to Sea World; she's in the shower so I only have a minute to reply here. I'm glad I waited to get the spring before I attached the lower hose and filled up the system. For NO other reason other than NEVER having doubt or to wonder if I do end up with a overheating problem, that if its because I didn't have spring. Sorry you got flamed and I brought up "old memories" in here - I do THAT enough with the wife! 
I'll be back tonight after Sea World to see how things are going in here!
Thanks everyone!Quote:
Please post smaller pictures!!! 
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: DZJim]
#471290
09/19/09 08:19 PM
09/19/09 08:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
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Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
We're all here to help on another...right?
This got me thinking some more. Vacuum cleaner; I have an old Electrolux canister type. Works good. If I put my hand over the exhaust and stop it, the suction decreases and stops. The impeller/fan/whatchamaycallit is stalled.
If there aint't no place for the fluid to go, there aint no fluid gonna move and ain't no hose gonna collapse.
Actually the impeller is still spinning at the same speed.. But airflow has ceased.. A vacuum & a typical automotive water pump have something in common, they are what is refered to as "Non-positive displacement pumps" So movement of air/water can stop & it doesn't damage the pump but it leaves a positive pressure after the pump & a negative pressure before the pump... the hose is under a vacuum & while a vacuum cleaner hose doesn't collapse in a radial fashion due to the ribbed design adding considerable resistance to collapse... But the hose does collapse in a linear way... IE the hose gets shorter as the coils pull together...
I believe that the thermostat closed simply directs the coolant bypassing the radiator, and does not stop flow through the engine. The water pump impeller would have to be stalled for flow to cease. Ain't like Mopar designed it that way...
My
Believe what you what, the thermostat stops water flow... While working for Ford I actually was involved in some testing on Police vehicles that were blowing up heater cores at a rate of one every couple weeks... Eventually we found out the officers were taking the cars out stone cold manually selecting first gear & winding the crap out off the cars to see what would break.. The heater core was the weak point & while the engine was cold at 4500 rpm you would see 75+ psi in the heater core... Brass Cores would take that, aluminum would not..
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#471291
09/20/09 07:33 AM
09/20/09 07:33 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 15,487
Florida
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the thermo is by passed at the intake and pump and will flow x amount of water with it closed that is so it does not cavitate while cold,the water is moveing you can run into probs with the intake blocked, when cold and at high rpms how many vanes on the pump and a/c or non a/c pullys plays a part also 8 vanes for the larger non a/c pully 6 vanes for the smaller a/c pully a/c pully on a 8 vane pump can cause it to suck a hose flat or cavitate at high rpms they are matched to pully speed and vanes to move the same x amount of water at idle large pully turns slower and has 8 vanes smaller pull turns faster with 6 vanes a thermo does help direct water to the smaller head passages and helps direct flow the intake by pass hose is often thought of as a way of warming the engine up to temp faster...which it does...but its to let water flow with out it cavitating while the thremo is closed..or like said when cold and being reved up I have found pieces of the spring "coil" in as far as the t-cover or wraped around the impeller also also have changed some alum t-covers from cavitation eating the alum away enuff to leak,and seen them leak water into crank case cavitation damage looks like casting flaws that are bubble shaped pocket/holes that have been eat into the alum look at some off a mercruzer off shore boat engines that turn 7000+ rpms for sustained lenghts of time more to it than pumping water with restrictions in the system got spring?
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: WyleECoyote]
#471292
09/20/09 12:58 PM
09/20/09 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
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top fuel
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Ball Ground, Georgia
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For whatever it's worth to this conversation, I asked the same question about the date coded radiator hoses I sell. Most of the lowers don't have springs. I asked the vendor I get them from why the lowers didn't have springs. He told me the manufacturer of the hoses said they were made of stronger material and didn't need a spring like the older ones. I don't know if that's correct or not. I am of the opinion that a spring is a good safety measure. But, lots of good info here. Sometimes "band-aid" fixes have to work until you find time to diagnose and fix a problem. Sometimes you never find that problem or the time. Thanks, Randy
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Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#471295
09/20/09 08:48 PM
09/20/09 08:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
Bill MeLater
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
yes,the hoses are made of a "better rubber" is the most common answer I have got about that ? also..
"Better rubber" Wish someone would have invented this 14 years ago... 
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