Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring?

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:09 AM

Is the anti-collapse spring necessary?

The old hose I took off didn't have one and the new hose I bought didn't have one.

I hate to put it all together and then read on here next week how necessary it is and then I won't be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't go find one and install it!

Thanks for input!
Ron

Posted By: moparts

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:13 AM

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:18 AM

Quote:

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

You can make one by wrapping a peice of wire around a broom stick handle.

Posted By: moparcanuk

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

You can make one by wrapping a peice of wire around a broom stick handle.

Posted By: 69superbee383

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:44 AM

Age old debate...

You can use them if you want but if the cooling system is flowing properly it shouldn't collapse. My Coronet had the problem and the radiator core was almost totally blocked. When I replaced the core the new lower hose had no spring and was installed as is. I have had no issues with it sense.

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:45 AM

Would coat hanger wire work?

What about "rusting" of the spring?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 01:51 AM

go to a welding shop & ask them for a single piece of stainless welding rod & as said bend it around a broomstick & install it. Turn the ends in toward the middle so there's no chance if it puncturing the wall. A guy said that they are actually used by the factory only to keep hoses from sucking closed when they vacuum fill the cooling systems & others have stated that worn out hoses can suck partly closed in actual use so make/install one & you can move on to other issues & not have to give it a seconds thought.

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 02:02 AM

I got flamed last time I posted on this subject

but what RapidRobert said,and for those reasons

some times a hose is just soft and weak,and "IS" the only problem with the cooling system

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 02:15 AM

Quote:

I got flamed last time I posted on this subject

but what RapidRobert said,and for those reasons

some times a hose is just soft and weak,and "IS" the only problem with the cooling system

Why'd you get "flamed"?

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 02:29 AM

Quote:

Would coat hanger wire work?

What about "rusting" of the spring?

Yes it would, it just won't last as long. I bet it'll last 5 years with the proper anti freeze mixture.

Posted By: Neil

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 02:34 AM

Go to the wrecking yard and pull the spring out of another car if you have to.

Posted By: DZJim

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 04:51 AM

Quote:

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 10:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.

I'm totally agreeing with your logic - only theory I can come up with is its just one of them things that happens; like the SF bridge twisting in high winds or a straw through a tree in a tornado - it musta happened somehow for all them thar springs to go into lower radiator hoses.

Posted By: Kowal

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/18/09 11:18 PM

I have had this happen. I went to the local Murray's and found a universal hose with a spring in it that matched, then I took it out and put it in my Mopar hose.

Best theory I had, some of the repro hoses are pretty soft and they collapse as they heat up, from the internal forces.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 12:02 AM

Quote:

go to a welding shop & ask them for a single piece of stainless welding rod & as said bend it around a broomstick & install it. Turn the ends in toward the middle so there's no chance if it puncturing the wall. A guy said that they are actually used by the factory only to keep hoses from sucking closed when they vacuum fill the cooling systems & others have stated that worn out hoses can suck partly closed in actual use so make/install one & you can move on to other issues & not have to give it a seconds thought.

did you get the hint?

Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 12:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It use to be ALL new lower hoses came with a spring already in them.

Not any more

Without it the pump at high rpm's can suck the hose closed.

Not the thing that you would want

If you can find one put it in. I try to save the old ones when ever I can

I'm trying to figure out how the hose could get sucked closed. I think that the cooling system is a closed system with no air in it. Full of liquid coolant. If everything is full at idle engine speed--block, heads, pump, hoses, etc.--which comprise the total volume of the system, and we diminish the volume of the system by collapsing a hose, where does the the liquid coolant go? Does it expand another hose? Liquids, including water and ethylene glycol, essentially are incompressible fluids aren't they? I'm referring to a system with a coolant reservoir and two-way vented filler cap.

It's really no different than the light in your fridge, you have to take a ride under the hood at WOT to truely know the answer....Barring that...It's all theory and I challenge you to show me...Video would be nice. P.S. I run a spring 'cuz I ain't gonna take that ride

Posted By: Boise Chall

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 12:32 AM

I used a spring and it solved my heating problem in my 512 72 Challenger

Attached picture 5491041-003(2).JPG

Posted By: MNobody

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 01:18 AM

Safe to say you will be using the ACME brand spring

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 01:47 AM

Quote:

I used a spring and it solved my heating problem in my 512 72 Challenger

No, it cured the symptom, you still have the problem.

Posted By: Boise Chall

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 02:58 AM

OK every time I post about my car you somehow tie it to a long forgotten problem. Why don't you tell me what my problem actually is you don't give any reason for your comments. Oh please supercuda help me I can't stand it anymore please teach me I can't handle my car running at 175 degrees in 85-90 degree air temp while I am beating the crap out of it. Please explain to me how I can get under 175 degrees on a 85 to 90 degree day even thou it runs perfect at 175. This is your chance tell me what is wrong with my perfect running car so I can fix what's not broken put up or shut up wiener

Posted By: Boise Chall

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 05:35 AM

It seams like you have chosen the shut up option if this is correct please press 1 If this is not correct please press 2 and you will be directed to the super secret undercover non existing cooling problem secret hotline

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 10:46 AM

yep,I got flamed

cause boise chall has a "over heating" problem and I suggested the 1/2 azz "spring in the hose" bandaid fix..

you best go pull that spring back out and warm it up some,it not overheating enuff with it in there

say what you want

I have seen them suck closed and have had that ride under the hood

I wont mention cavitation with mixed matched a/c pullys amd non a/c water pumps and the way it eats the alum wp housing up at sustained high rpms either

the shut up option...

Posted By: 1fastrunner

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 10:51 AM

Not rying to blow this out of proportion, but he, and many other members were trying to help you. Not actually working on your problem in person isn't the best case scenario. I'd be very thankful they all took the time to help someone they probably never met, and maybe never will.
I'm just saying don't burn any bridges, you might need to get over another problem down the road.
Jim

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 10:59 AM

he was being nice when he flamed me...that bridge has been burnt,IMHO

only the 1/2 azz bandaid fix from under the shade tree for me pleze

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 11:54 AM

I held off putting my system together after reading a few of these - then I headed here to Orlando to take my wife to Sea World; she's in the shower so I only have a minute to reply here. I'm glad I waited to get the spring before I attached the lower hose and filled up the system. For NO other reason other than NEVER having doubt or to wonder if I do end up with a overheating problem, that if its because I didn't have spring. Sorry you got flamed and I brought up "old memories" in here - I do THAT enough with the wife!

I'll be back tonight after Sea World to see how things are going in here!

Thanks everyone!

Posted By: Boise Chall

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 02:02 PM

Quote:

Not rying to blow this out of proportion, but he, and many other members were trying to help you. Not actually working on your problem in person isn't the best case scenario. I'd be very thankful they all took the time to help someone they probably never met, and maybe never will.
I'm just saying don't burn any bridges, you might need to get over another problem down the road.
Jim

I understand that and I let it pass by a few times but supercuda was very persistant and would not let it go. Every time I would post he had the same comment. In my bait post " Massive overheating problem" I said thank you to everybody that helped me I was also trying to get this issue away from this thread so I didn't hijack it.

Posted By: MNobody

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 02:30 PM

I was told by the guy at the parts store that they did away with the springs because they had issues with them working their way into the water pump and damaging it. That kinda tells me that they either didn't need to be there, wern't needed on newer vehicles or solved the collapsing problem another way. It makes sense to me that if the hose is collapsing then the pump might be flowing too much, or the hose is old. A pump can't push water if there's a restriction on the inlet side and can't pull water if there's a restriction on the outlet side i would think but i'm no expert.

Posted By: Neil

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 03:36 PM

I'd have a hard time believing a spring would ever work it's way loose. I have had to pull them out of old hoses with pliers, and use string to help pull them back into the new hose.

The spring is so small in diameter that I doubt there is enough surface area there for the fluid to grab hold of it to any degree. Also the water pump inlet is much smaller than the spring diameter in every one I've monkeyed around with.

I'd say they stopped installing the springs because that would be one more added cost that would cut into their profit margin.....

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 04:53 PM

I have found PIECES of rusty coils (they are not springs) in waterpumps. When the coil is in good shape (no rust) there is no danger to the waterpump, but when it starts to disintegrate thats another story. Always a good idea to use stainless.
I am another person who has SEEN the lower hose (and it wasn't an old worn out hose) collapse while simply winging the throttle from the engine bay. I believe a poor-flowing radiator can contribute to the problem by allowing the WP suction to build trying to suck coolant from a radiator that doesn't want to give it up.
Like putting your hand over a vacuum cleaner hose, the forces on the hose are FAR greater than with the hand off.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 05:36 PM

Quote:

Like putting your hand over a vacuum cleaner hose, the forces on the hose are FAR greater than with the hand off.

And the fact that the radiator hose has a much larger area for a vacuum to work on means it doesn't take much to suck it flat... Think about it, you can typically squeeze a radiator hose flat pretty easily, a heater no so much...

Also another thing to consider, there will be no flow when the thermostat is closed so if the engine gets spun up while cold & collapses the hose during that condition now the hose has been weakened slightly so next time it will collapse easier... The spring could have prevented it collapsing the first time...

Posted By: DZJim

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 05:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Like putting your hand over a vacuum cleaner hose, the forces on the hose are FAR greater than with the hand off.

And the fact that the radiator hose has a much larger area for a vacuum to work on means it doesn't take much to suck it flat... Think about it, you can typically squeeze a radiator hose flat pretty easily, a heater no so much...

Also another thing to consider, there will be no flow when the thermostat is closed so if the engine gets spun up while cold & collapses the hose during that condition now the hose has been weakened slightly so next time it will collapse easier... The spring could have prevented it collapsing the first time...

We're all here to help on another...right?

This got me thinking some more. Vacuum cleaner; I have an old Electrolux canister type. Works good. If I put my hand over the exhaust and stop it, the suction decreases and stops. The impeller/fan/whatchamaycallit is stalled. If there aint't no place for the fluid to go, there aint no fluid gonna move and ain't no hose gonna collapse.

I believe that the thermostat closed simply directs the coolant bypassing the radiator, and does not stop flow through the engine. The water pump impeller would have to be stalled for flow to cease. Ain't like Mopar designed it that way...
My

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/19/09 08:24 PM

Quote:

I held off putting my system together after reading a few of these - then I headed here to Orlando to take my wife to Sea World; she's in the shower so I only have a minute to reply here. I'm glad I waited to get the spring before I attached the lower hose and filled up the system. For NO other reason other than NEVER having doubt or to wonder if I do end up with a overheating problem, that if its because I didn't have spring. Sorry you got flamed and I brought up "old memories" in here - I do THAT enough with the wife!
I'll be back tonight after Sea World to see how things are going in here!

Thanks everyone!
Quote:

Please post smaller pictures!!!

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/20/09 12:19 AM

Quote:

We're all here to help on another...right?

This got me thinking some more. Vacuum cleaner; I have an old Electrolux canister type. Works good. If I put my hand over the exhaust and stop it, the suction decreases and stops. The impeller/fan/whatchamaycallit is stalled.

If there aint't no place for the fluid to go, there aint no fluid gonna move and ain't no hose gonna collapse.

Actually the impeller is still spinning at the same speed.. But airflow has ceased.. A vacuum & a typical automotive water pump have something in common, they are what is refered to as "Non-positive displacement pumps" So movement of air/water can stop & it doesn't damage the pump but it leaves a positive pressure after the pump & a negative pressure before the pump... the hose is under a vacuum & while a vacuum cleaner hose doesn't collapse in a radial fashion due to the ribbed design adding considerable resistance to collapse... But the hose does collapse in a linear way... IE the hose gets shorter as the coils pull together...

I believe that the thermostat closed simply directs the coolant bypassing the radiator, and does not stop flow through the engine. The water pump impeller would have to be stalled for flow to cease. Ain't like Mopar designed it that way...
My

Believe what you what, the thermostat stops water flow... While working for Ford I actually was involved in some testing on Police vehicles that were blowing up heater cores at a rate of one every couple weeks... Eventually we found out the officers were taking the cars out stone cold manually selecting first gear & winding the crap out off the cars to see what would break.. The heater core was the weak point & while the engine was cold at 4500 rpm you would see 75+ psi in the heater core... Brass Cores would take that, aluminum would not..

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/20/09 11:33 AM

the thermo is by passed at the intake and pump and will flow x amount of water with it closed

that is so it does not cavitate while cold,the water is moveing

you can run into probs with the intake blocked, when cold and at high rpms

how many vanes on the pump and a/c or non a/c pullys plays a part also

8 vanes for the larger non a/c pully
6 vanes for the smaller a/c pully

a/c pully on a 8 vane pump can cause it to suck a hose flat or cavitate at high rpms

they are matched to pully speed and vanes to move the same x amount of water at idle

large pully turns slower and has 8 vanes

smaller pull turns faster with 6 vanes

a thermo does help direct water to the smaller head passages and helps direct flow

the intake by pass hose is often thought of as a way of warming the engine up to temp faster...which it does...but its to let water flow with out it cavitating while the thremo is closed..or like said when cold and being reved up

I have found pieces of the spring "coil" in as far as the t-cover or wraped around the impeller also

also have changed some alum t-covers from cavitation eating the alum away enuff to leak,and seen them leak water into crank case

cavitation damage looks like casting flaws that are bubble shaped pocket/holes that have been eat into the alum

look at some off a mercruzer off shore boat engines that turn 7000+ rpms for sustained lenghts of time

more to it than pumping water with restrictions in the system

got spring?

Posted By: Dixie

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/20/09 04:58 PM

For whatever it's worth to this conversation, I asked the same question about the date coded radiator hoses I sell. Most of the lowers don't have springs.

I asked the vendor I get them from why the lowers didn't have springs. He told me the manufacturer of the hoses said they were made of stronger material and didn't need a spring like the older ones.

I don't know if that's correct or not. I am of the opinion that a spring is a good safety measure. But, lots of good info here.

Sometimes "band-aid" fixes have to work until you find time to diagnose and fix a problem. Sometimes you never find that problem or the time.

Thanks,
Randy

Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/20/09 08:22 PM

This dosen't actually involve springs...But have you ever removed the core plugs on your heads/block and taken a look at the water passages? I have and it's a pretty ugly scenario. It's nothing unusual to find passages blocked 60 percent with casting flash/sand chunks. A few minutes with a carbide burr is time well spent. Just remember to pick up your block and shake it vigorously when your through grinding to remove all the junk. (Overhead works best}

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/20/09 08:38 PM

yes,the hoses are made of a "better rubber" is the most common answer I have got about that ? also..

Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/21/09 12:48 AM

Quote:

yes,the hoses are made of a "better rubber" is the most common answer I have got about that ? also..

"Better rubber" Wish someone would have invented this 14 years ago...

Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/21/09 12:55 AM

Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: Lower Radiator Hose - to spring or not to spring? - 09/21/09 01:43 AM

Get that truck runnin' yet?